Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am getting a black tree from one of the most respected monitor keepers in my area, he even used to work at the reptile house at the atlanta zoo. I asked what kind of substrait he would recommend and he said large pine bark nuggets. I have always heard people saying things about pine being bad for reptiles. I was thinking about switching all my monitors over to if it was a good substrait because I can get it very easily and very cheap. Anyways I just figured I would try to get a second opinion.

Hands down the best substrate for a black tree is oak leaf litter. The best part about oak leaf litter is it is free. Find an oak tree, a rake and a bag and you are all set. Just be sure it is free of real litter and isn't in a place where there is likely to be pesticides. If you wan to get real fancy put the leaves over some soil first. Either way a deep layer of leaves will hold the humidity up great.

Steve
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Steve

Thanks for the tip! I could definitely find some oak trees. What about using the pine nuggets for other monitors? I have always used cypress but the pine nuggets seem to be a little bigger, less messy, and less splinters. All around seem pretty similar just a little better.

Pine has been shown to cause various types of cancers in lab rodents, especially respiratory issues, due to the aromatic oils.

From personal experience, I've seen reptiles kept on pine turn into reptile jerky from the effect the substrate has on their skin. The effect is probably considerably more pronounced here in a very naturally dry climate compared to the south, near Atlanta, where I'm told it's nice and humid most of the year. However, that being said, it is still a carcinogenic substrate and contributes to numerous cancers and skin problems both in rodents and reptiles alike. Just because it's readily available doesn't make it good for you or your animals.

A suitable alternative is aspen, which is a wood without the aromatic oils that are so bad in pine and cedar. However, for a tropical species such as black tree monitors, your best bet is a substrate that will hold moisture without molding better than a dry woodchip such as aspen will. Cypress mulch, orchid bark (a heat treated bark used to grow orchids in), or a nice soil mix all will work much better for you.

Eucalyptus is also not a great idea. The oils inherently present will also eventually make your animal very ill.

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

Thanks for the info. I knew pine shavings were bad I was just confused as to whether for some reason the bark wasnt bad. I think im gona go with the oak leaves and wood. I noticed the atlanta zoo uses that for a lot of their tropical snakes. and yea the humidity down here is nice (for the reptiles). I dont have to worry about humidity in my cages at all unless they need a lot of humidity.

Hi,

What makes oak leaf litter better than glass? For instance I could walk around and gather bottles from recycling cans and crush them, and have free substrate. So they share the same best quality.

Give us some insight to the other qualities of the substrate if you dont mind, becuase really pine nugs could very much be free too.

Cheers,
Mike.

Uh, being free isn't what makes leaf litter a great substrate only an added perk. As I mentioned if you place a layer over some soil it will keep the soil moist and help provide a more stable humidity. The moment you put new leaves in a monitor's cage you will see them actively start foraging through them. It is a good place to hide food items or else release crickets/insects into as a way to keep them stimulated. It is also a good nesting medium for some species. It would be the same substrate that you would expect to find in a forest so it is also the most natural choice. Oak leaves happen to be one of the better types since they hold up the best and don't turn to mush like maple as they break down. Oak turns into a soil after breaking down so you can keep adding new stuff over the top.

I don't like bark or wood chips for any species of monitor. I use either soil or leaves or else soil covered in leaves.

cheers,
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Steve

Thanks Steve,

That shows much better how oak litter really can be useful, much more so than chunks of wood that serve little purpuse...or glass hahaha.

Thanks,
Mike.

Oh. I beg to differ.
Yea..Cypress mulch is too coarse for ground burying monitors but great for high humidity tree monitors.
A nice tall floor to ceiling cage with cypress mulch is just the ticket for tree monitors. Because it absorbs water well and is not densley packed, water evaporates off / out of cypress well. Therefore it releases humidity well.
You can get a 2 gal garden sprayer and wet it down daily or every few days and it effectivly releases humidity over time.

I had a set up where the cage was made the dimentions to accomodate 30 x 30x 3" washing machine plastic pans (avail from home depot) (They are to set washers in on second story locations in house.. and leakproof.)
The cage was 6.5 tall, with large shelvs and boxes at different levels filled with dirt, sphagnum moss and coconut bedding. Like big dirt filled birdhouses. Because heat rises, the dirt birdhouses were at different temperatures and the monitors were able to select the temprature "house" they liked and dig in and bed down in them.
Also added large rectangular pyrex dishes 12 x 16 x 2.5 of water secured on shelves as sort of "arial pools".

The best thing is cyress was easy to come by so when it gets dirty, moldy or punky, it can be "shoveled" out with a large dustpan or small shovel. Then you can mulch your shrubs or flower beds outside with it.

Anyway, with the above set-up I was able to get great 70% humidity.

Its been years since I had that set-up but I will see if I can find picks.

Everbody has different ways of doing things, but some work better than others.

Cheers,
Todd G.

its also fun to watch dums drop 3-4 feet off branches into big pools (concrete mixing tubs)of water in a tall cage. Water goes everywhere... and they are "happy".

I have used them in the past, but if they are not well decomposed, they can be "pitchy".
I would not use it again.
Depending on where you live, a good alternative is cypress mulch.
I don't know if its still available, but ace hardware had a cypress mulch product you could get in 2 or 3 cubic foot bags. For like 5 or 6 bucks.
It was kind of coarse, but for the bottom of the floor it would be good. It came as "colored" as well... so be sure NOT to get that, just the natural stuff, if you go that route.
Your tree would probably rather hide/burry in a good size elevated box or plastic tub filled with dirt, coconut bedding, spagnum moss type set up anyway. Like a big mulch filled birdhouse.
Cheers
Todd G.