Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After years of learning about my Kingsnake animal companions (not pets, not part of a "collection", I just got a Black Milk Snake. He loves his 60-gallon naturalistic vivarium (not cage) with rock ledge, climbing branches, rocks & wood and shrub trimmings.

They originate, of course, in the Cloud Forests of Costa Rica & Panama, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of the original collection sites. I'm just curious; I enjoy researching about their natural regions of origin and related facts.

Do you, or anyone you know, have any insight into where the original batch or batches were caught prior to captive breeding?

Costa Rican site somewhere in the Talamanca Mountains, or La Amistad National Park? Other Costa Rican site?
Other Panamanian site?

Ameron
Portland/Vancouver

I think many of the animals in captivity owe their lineage to zoo stock. Not sure exactly what zoo(I think it was San Antonio), can anyone remember which zoo, they would surely know.

But I'm not sure about the EXACT locality origin though. I'm sure someone will chime in with some info on it in time. There are several bloodlines in the hobby now. Mark Bell's line and the San Antonio zoo stock are one in the same though. Many aren't aware of this.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I'm contacting the San Antonio zoo now by e-mail for follow-up. Maybe they can advise of the general location.

Ameron,
The San Antonio zoo gaigeae locality data has them coming from Puerto Limon, Costa Rica.
Jeff Hardwick and I also have another locality line of gaigeae, Providencia, Costa Rica.

I wasn't aware of the Mark Bell line of gaigeae, and don't know their origins.

-Dell

Scott Ballard could provide more information, and perhaps he'll chime in. What follows is my understanding of the information he's relayed to me:

Most of the L. t. gaigeae your apt to see in captivity are Florida Zoo, San Antonio Zoo, or "Bell"-line animals. These are all the same line in actuality, and are the result of several collecting expeditions by the San Antonio Zoo to Limon Province, Costa Rica. The original founding animals were though to be Mussurana (Clelia clelia) by the expedition, but when one of the adults was found to be gravid and laid eggs from which neonate milk snakes hatched, their true identity was revealed. This revelation led to at least one more collecting expedition by Kardon and his crew to Limon Province. Though the expeditions were staged in Puerto Limon, it is a coastal city and probably too low in elevation for gaigeae. The animals were likely collected further from the coast in the highlands of Limon Province.

There are also at least two other locality lines of gaigeae in the country. Shannon Brown is working with one, and Jeff Hardwick and Dell Despain.

Hope that helps
-Cole

L. t. gentilis - Central Kansas

Cole, most of that is correct. Let me add some more information for you. The San Antonio Zoo didn't collect any of the founding stock themselves. It was collected by Fred Antonio and George Van Horn.

A year and a half ago, Paul Polzin and I decided to get as much information on gaigeae in the hobby today as we could. What we found was that Fred Antonio and George Van Horn collected what they thought was a mussurana in the mid 1980's between Limon and Siquirres at the locality of Blanco, Costa Rica (very near Liverpool just west of Puerto Limon). That adult female laid eleven eggs for them, which hatched on Sept. 14, 1985, and all were of course tri-colored.

One pair of those babies was obtained by Alan Kardon of the San Antonio Zoo. Additionally, Tom Crutchfield had imported a 4' wild-caught male that was almost totally jet black and big-bodied, around December 1984 from somewhere in Costa Rica. Tom had told me then it came from a collector in Costa Rica who had permits to collect it and a male stuarti that Tom also had for sale at the time. The San Antonio Zoo also obtained this 4' male snake. So we now know that all 2.1 of the San Antonio Zoo founder gaigeae stock were Costa Rican animals, and ones that all get black very quickly.

The Central Florida Zoo line can be traced primarily to some of those original eleven hatchlings from Blanco, as well as possibly a few others that Fred Antonio and George Van Horn collected later in the 1980's from the Turrialba/Siquirres region in Costa Rica. And from my understanding, the Mark Bell line is a mix of Central Florida Zoo stock with San Antonio Zoo stock. So actually, the San Antonio Zoo line and the Central Florida Zoo lines seem to be closely related, and for the most part, are locality animals.

So it seems that all of the gaigeae in the hobby today are from Costa Rican origin, although different localities within the highlands of Costa Rica. In addition to the locality of Providencia (San Jose province) that Jeff and Dell are working with and Shannon's stock from Guayacan/Siquirres (Limon province), there also is locality stock out there from Miramar in the Puntarenas province.

Thanks,
Scott

That is excellent info my friend. At least when you DO decide to pop in on rare occasions, it is to contribute something very worth while!..LOL!

Happy New Year buddy!

later, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's what I was hoping for, Scott!

Thanks for posting/sharing the info you've gathered.

Hope the holidays have been treating you well
-Cole

.........although Gerrit is the one to thank for the Guayacan/Siquirres and Miramar localities of gaigeae stock being brought into the U.S.. Gerrit has been key in getting MANY of the new current triangulum projects over here for us to enjoy

Scott

Always cool to lay down good useful history info.

Yeah, I remember talking to Scott a while back, and him telling me about the Mussarana thing too..LOL!

BTW, great milk photo too man!.....you guys always have the smokin W/C stuff man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

that KS milk remained wild. I enjoy seeing them in the wild as much, if not more, than in tubs in my basement!

-Cole

L. t. multistrata - Bighorn Co., MT - captive bred 2008

That's even better yet many times dude!, it's like fishing too, no need to over-collect every single outing..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Gosh, thanks so much for reminding me that sometimes you get not only what you were hoping for - you get even better!!

You made my month. Thanks for the time & efforts of all who contributed; most helpful for my research.

"If you're not outraged - you're not paying attention!"