Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I might be catching the brooksi bug (uh-oh!) and am interested in acquiring some, but I am not sure of the difference between axanthic and anery in that subspecies. I know that by definition one lacks yellow and the other lacks red, but how does that affect the snakes themselves? I swear the babies look the same. Can anyone chime in and break it down Barney-style for me? Any pics of adults for comparison would be appreciated!!

Thanks.
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Diego

SWCHR

Here they are side by side.

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Boneyardreptiles.com

Out of the several axanthic lines that are known, most, if not all have a bluish/purple sort of undertone, and some are more pronounced than other's too. Axanthics are generally more black and beige/white. Boneyard's side by side photo depicts this very well.

I saw some brooksi at a local pet store that were marked anerythristics that I am sure were axanthics, and some normal dark pigmented adult brooksi that were marked "hypos", even when they had some real hypos in the very next tank..LOL!.......my GOD!, pet stores are just so renowned for not knowing what the hell they have, it's just plain ridiculous. I don't think I have ever walked into a pet store anywhere with snakes that I have not seen at least one or more animals grossly mislabeled..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

......the anerythristics are more a black with beige/white, not axanthic............ARRRGH!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Anery means lacking RED pigment....
Axanthic means lacking YELLOW pigment....
The ones with the bluish tint are lacking the yellow pigment and are Axanthic....The Black and Creamy/White(some yellow) ones are Anery........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I always thought the Axanthics were Anery as well since they lacked red pigment too........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Like Doug/John have said

Axanthics are more Black and Blue-ish/Purple: There are different lines of Axanthic the two best known are Lemke and New England, I've seen crosses btwn the two lines, and i've seen axanthic Floridana/Brooksi that don't look the part of either line.

Anerys tend to Black and White/Cream: Until a few years ago, the BHB Anerys were the only ones i saw/worked with. The BHB line looks more Floridana (dark) than this new line a acquired from Tom Agosta.

Thing about the Anery morph (in Floridana), it really does not affect YELLOW pigments at all. While the "Axanthic" Morph appears to wipe out both Red AND Yellow!

Also, I've seen people call Axanthic Anerys and Anerys Axanthics. I think it'd be wise to learn what's what with all the morphs as many people misrepresent animals in order to make a sale or from lack of knowledge.

The Anery isn't the best example of what is out there, this line is more high white that the other line (BHB).

Adult NE Axanthic Male

Adult (High White) Anery Male

~ZF

Hello all, thanks for the clarification on axanthic vs anery.Unfortunately I am not yet 100% sure on what I have, but my guess is axanthic, could you confirm?
thanks
David

Hey David,

It's hard to tell from the pic.

From the overall pattern the animal looks Axanthic... but the colors in the pic look Black and white so the pic makes it look Anery.

What are the actual colors on that animal?

~ZF

Hey ZFelicien, thank you for your reply, it is not just black and white, there is a grayish tinge or wash near the black scales

thanks,
David

Hey ZF, I found this closer photo of the snake, perhaps this is better,
thanks,
David

D,

Guess it was the Flash in the 1st photo... That's an Axanthic.

~ZF

Thanks a lot, Z!

This leads me to another question, what will a double homozigous (lavender albino, axanthic) produce?
This should be a snow, right?
And what would be different in that snow from one produced using anery?
I have some snows but I still dont know how they were produced, will post a photo in a while

thanks,
David

A "true" snow is actually a tyrosinase "negative" animal x anery(or axanthic), not a lavender(t- positive), but some will still call them snows. There are lots of different terms used differently by different people, but in my opinion, the above definition would be better fitting for the coined term "snow".

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

A "true" snow is actually a tyrosinase "negative" animal x anery(or axanthic), not a lavender(t- positive), but some will still call them snows. There are lots of different terms used differently by different people, but in my opinion, the above definition would be better fitting for the coined term "snow

agreed DMong.

T negative x axanthic/anery = True snow
T positive x axanthic/anery = I call these lavender snows in florida kings. Do you think this is correct?

lavender albino (T positive) and lavender snows:

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yes, I think that is a very good, simple "descriptive" term for those to eliminate confusion with the other Rainer.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yes, I think that is a very good, simple "descriptive" term for those to eliminate confusion with the other Rainer.

hmm, not sure what you mean? I called them lavender snows ever since the first true snow in Florida kings came out 3 years ago. Before that i knew what a true snow was but why stir the pot when there was no true snow. then i created the first ture snow here 3 years ago and ever since i made that distiction. To date i don't think anyone else has produced a true snow in florida kings except here. So obviously I have a stick to grind on this issue.

So you agree that a Lavender x anery/axanthic should be called a lavender snow? That is what i have been calling them yet there are some people who still want to call the lavender x axanthic /anery snows. Since the two terms anery and axanthic are interchagable yet they are used to determine two diffwerent non-allelic genes. i though the lavender snow vs snow would serve the same purpose. just makes it easier for hobbiests to tell which morph they have...And I think it fits perfectly.

BTW , I have anery lavender snows with no yellow in them as adults. also a bit of history..the axanthic x lavender snows that Zenny pictured were previously referred to as Pearl snows by Tim ricks.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Oh no!, I know the lav form was the first original, I just meant NOW your term "lavender snow" eliminates confusion with the t-negative form that you just recently produced, not that there were different types before that.

Thanks for the info on the originally coined "Pearl snow's" Tim Ricks line as well.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yes Lavender x Axan or Anery = "Snow"

"Snow" from Lavender x Anery (note you still see that yellow)

"Snow" from Lavender x Axanthic (do u see the blue hue on this specimen?)

"Ghost" from Axanthic

"Ghost" from Anery (pic really sucks)

~ZF

Great pics Zenny, depicting the different phenotypic looks of each!

Yeah, you can plainly see the bluish hue being displayed in the neonate photo.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks to all!!
Now everything fits in its right place!

Thanks Z for the photos of both axanthic and anery snows

So anery and axanthics are non-allelic? Thanks Rainer for this info, its interesting, I assumed that they were just different strains.

David

Thanx Doug! I sold that snow and bought it back, the others weren't so blue... i had to see how it would turn out as a yearling!

David: Not a problem... i don't mind sharing pix and info!

~Z

Man, I LOVE the snow and ghost made with the anery!

Hey Andy,

I agree with you on the "Snow"... Anery "Ghost" doesn't really do it for me... Maybe after they become common and there's more to choose from i'll change my mind, but for now i like the original "Ghost" better.

Unfortunately my Anery line "Snows" are from Sulphur (Sulphur-snow male) and Flame (Flame-snow female) Lines so they show more color than i would like... i wouldn't mind a nice clean all WHITE "Snow" (no yellow hues!)... i like um both and i'm sure they'll creat some killer stuff, but it's just what i would call a perfect "Snow"

Here's an animal i know you don't mind seeing a pic of:

l8r

~Z

Dang! Is that the guy you got from me way back when you were getting into brooksi?! I thought you sold him! Did you breed him into anything? Let me know, as I have a fondness for that guy. Has he calmed down?

Yea that's the guy, i never did breed him! He was pretty ok as far a temperament, the female was NUTZ! She eventually calmed down, Gave me two good clutches one year and the following year she had some strange muscle disorder. Her muscle tissue was rock hard at various points in her structure, it was so bad she bad trouble moving and getting to the water bowl, took her to a "Vet" ... i think he more confused that i was about what was going on and i just had him put her down.

My Adult "Hybino" and a Hypo (het lavender) Female are from that girl... They bred last season and gave me (1 hypo, 1 2x het, and a strange(patternless[no bands], no color) looking lavender or hybino that was underdeveloped when i slit it's egg and eventually passed) they'll be breeding this coming season... maybe i'll get a "green hypo" or one of those strange patternless lavenders/hybinos

Any way, i did sell him, the guy that got him is very pleased with him.

Here's the female:

~Z

Nice normal phenotype brooksi too Zenny, is that a female?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanx Doug,

It's actually a male... he was a killer GREEN specimen!

Now he's on the "why the heck did i sell that..." list

~Z

LOL!!, Man, I know just what ya mean there bro. I have quite a lengthy "why the heck did I ever sell it" list myself..HAHAHA!

And I know what you mean about the green tone as well, my adult female displays a very greenish cast as well.

Well, look at it this way,..ya still have quite a few killer floridana specimens, so not all was lost..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That's a great looking snake.

I have seen many axanthic that look very back and white like the aforementioned anerythritic descriptions.

Axanthic and anery terms can and used to be used interchangably. According to Dr. Bern bechtel (author of colubrid gentics) said the yellow and red pigment are present in Florida king morhs so the proper anery and axanthic terms do not necessarlit apply.

However recently there was a new none allelic strain of anery/axanthic which is not compatiple with each other. So for hobbiest sake the anery is the darker morph and the axanthic is the lighter morph.It just makes it easier to describe the two non-alleic morph. But by outcrossing these traits to new phenotypes the anery comes out whiter.

Biggest doifference I see are the eyes. The axanthics have dark eyes while the anerys have lighter irises.

example pic of a anery and axanthic below

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>Axanthic and anery terms can and used to be used interchangably.

I don't think so.......
Two different pigments......

Xanthin - Yellows
Erythrin - Reds
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I don't think so.......
Two different pigments......

Xanthin - Yellows
Erythrin - Reds

I used to think that as well. Then when i questioned Dr. Bechtel at the Daytona show 2 years in a row about this very same question regarding the Florida kings specifically. Dr. Bechtel said the Florida king neonates have red and then they turn orange and finally yellow as adults. So when does oranage become red or yellow? Basically these are all the same origins it is really just up to the hobbiest to call whatever he wants since both pigments yellow and red are missing. If you check Dr. Bechtels book he has pictures of anerys and axanthics that are pictured that could be opposite. thats because they have both pigments and both are missing.

Also early in th 80's Lloyd lemke had this same arugument with his axanthics. He actully called his axanthics ..Anerythristics, and he was very sure that is what they were supposed to be. Check his price list and you will see he called the first 'axanthics" Anerys. he mentioned something about his anerys having a Blue wax appearance. Then some years later some breeders on the east coast started calling the same line axanthics when Lloyd got cancer and finally passed away. So i guess postmortem (LL A.D.)they became axanthics.

anerys ..





anery eye

axanthic:

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yep....I think Floridana are probably an exception to the rule since they do not always have melanin, xanthin and erythrin like a tricolored king or milk.....and they go through an ontogenetic change with pattern and color.......

I always thought a hypomelanistic brooksi was merely a reduced black pattern not reduced pigmentation like in Hondurans.....

A hypo Brooksi or Floridana trait is more similar to an Applegate Pyro that has black pigment, but it is reduced in pattern....The black is black on some hypo Floridana, but the black pattern is reduced......

I have a few Thayeri that have real reduced black pattern/area, but they are not hypos they are just reduced black since the black is black and not gray/silver as with the hypo tricolors....

And Anery Hondos are probably Hypoerythristic and not Anerythristic... Since there is some red (pink) pigmentation.... The red is not replaced with non pigment (the absence of pigment) just reduced pigment......

But people are set with the names already given....I don't want to change them...I just wanted to share some of my opinions....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Something to go along with the other posts here so some folks may better understand certain chromatophore's roles.

There's been a big misunderstanding of the dynamics of these two terms for many years, and the exact role each chromatophore plays.

The chromatophores known as Xanthophores are responsible for producing red AND yellow pigments known as pteridines. These may vary in color from pure yellow to pure red, and any intermediate shades of the two.Xanthophores possess a predominantly red coloration, and are referred to as "erythrophores".

Xanthophores also retain yellow to reddish pigments contained in the diet in the form of carotenoids. Carotenoid retention continues throughout life, and the intensity of this pigmentation can vary greatly depending on the types and quantity of carotenoids contained in the diet. Also, the animal's genetic predisposition towards the ability to store these carotenoids will ultimately affect the animal's appearance a great deal. A very good example of this would be the high-yellow strain of amel nelsoni that is in the hobby, where it gains yellow pigmentation as it matures, and does not have this apperance when first hatched from the egg.

The anerythristic Honduran milk is a great example of xanthophores, and their tandem role in affecting both the red AND yellow pigment of the animal, as they are basically anerythristic and axanthic at the same time.

Still many weird combinations of things we don't really fully understand. And even though certain terms are often used interchangably, there can be very different things going on genetic-wise.

The information I gave here was meant to go along with what you gave to help people understand the dynamics of these chromatophores a bit better.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

np
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I knew that you, John, and some of the other's here would be able to appreciate and understand what I added there.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Something to go along with the other posts here so some folks may better understand certain chromatophore's roles.
>>
>> There's been a big misunderstanding of the dynamics of these two terms for many years, and the exact role each chromatophore plays.
>>
>> The chromatophores known as Xanthophores are responsible for producing red AND yellow pigments known as pteridines. These may vary in color from pure yellow to pure red, and any intermediate shades of the two.Xanthophores possess a predominantly red coloration, and are referred to as "erythrophores".
>>
>> Xanthophores also retain yellow to reddish pigments contained in the diet in the form of carotenoids. Carotenoid retention continues throughout life, and the intensity of this pigmentation can vary greatly depending on the types and quantity of carotenoids contained in the diet. Also, the animal's genetic predisposition towards the ability to store these carotenoids will ultimately affect the animal's appearance a great deal. A very good example of this would be the high-yellow strain of amel nelsoni that is in the hobby, where it gains yellow pigmentation as it matures, and does not have this apperance when first hatched from the egg.
>>
>> The anerythristic Honduran milk is a great example of xanthophores, and their tandem role in affecting both the red AND yellow pigment of the animal, as they are basically anerythristic and axanthic at the same time.
>>
>> Still many weird combinations of things we don't really fully understand. And even though certain terms are often used interchangably, there can be very different things going on genetic-wise.
>>
>> The information I gave here was meant to go along with what you gave to help people understand the dynamics of these chromatophores a bit better.
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----
>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Excellent post, my friend. That really helps me grasp this issue a little better. Thanks!
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Diego

SWCHR

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thank you all very much! I hav elooked it over and made my decision.

Much appreciated!
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Diego

SWCHR

which is...?
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Todd Hughes

To contact Mr. Don Shores immediately!!
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Diego

SWCHR

To contact Mr. Don Shores immediately!!

lol!

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

he Shore's enuff has the right stuff! When it comes to morphs in splendies, that is who I'd go to, those axanthics are always on my mind!
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Todd Hughes

Almost got some of those Axanthic splendida too!! Thank goodness I slept on it before I actually placed the order.
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Diego

SWCHR