Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'd post this elsewhere but this seems to be the place. Anyway here are my thoughts. When a regulated community is included in the regulatory process the resultant laws need not be overly restrictive nor carry a cost to enforce. They could/should simply provide civil authorities with the means to act when widely excepted standards are not followed. Properly crafted laws may also provide cover for responsible individuals who by agreeing with and supporting such standards distance themselves from those who are less than responsible.

A democratic “society” does not guarantee anyone the right act irresponsibly and that some will violate laws is not sufficient reason not to implement them. This python ban is not democratic in greatest part because those sponsoring it have deliberately chosen not to engage the regulated community. Law making, based on fear and sensationalism instead of good data and valid conclusions needs to be opposed by anyone who values the democratic process. Fighting this however is different than having a “do nothing” mentality which fails to recognize the role that well reasons laws play in ordering a society.

Sadly the reptile keeping community has failed on many occasions to step up to the plate and initiate some sort of self imposed standards. While society at large is pretty tolerant of smaller snakes and lizards of the non-venomous variety, hots and big exotic constrictors cause real if not always legitimate concerns. Recognizing this fact and responding to it proactively would have been the best method of ensuring that extremely restrictive measure such as this python ban never gained traction in the first place.

This is just my two cents but once this python ban fight is over we need to engage the larger battle and grow up as an industry or we’ll be back to square one before you know it.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, I think you hit the nail on the head IMO. I dont understand why so many herpers fight against or ignore the need for instituting policies and assisting the regulatory agencies in their efforts to stop bad practices. Lets face it, the RESPONSIBLE big constrictor and hot keepers ARE the experts in the field with their vast experience and knowledge. I dont keep large constrictors or hots, so I dont know what would be "good" regulation to keep these animals out of the news, from being banned, and only in the hands of qualified individuals. Plus, keeping it fair to those who do keep these animals.

Good points, Tony. It occurs to me there're two sorts of problems or potential problems: Those generated by fears from outside our community, about our animals, and those that should be generated by concerns from insideour community, in order to protect in the wild the animals we value so highly. Maybe, even, to protect our right to keep them, by avoiding overreactions like the proposed python regulation.

We've been almost entirely silent about that second type of concern. Maybe that's appropriate. But maybe it's not and we'll look back someday and wish we'd been proactive about self-regulating these sorts of issues, too. For example:
--should it be illegal to release a captive-produced hybrid in the wild?
--should it be illegal to release a captive-bred colubrid in an area in which it is not found?
--should it be illegal to release a captive-bred colubrid in an area in which it is native?
--should it be illegal to release a wild-caught colubrid in a different area? In an area where it's not normally found?

I have been saying for years that if we choose not to regulate ourselves....then...someone else will surely do it for us!
There are moral and ethical questions too and obviously you cannot legislate morality.
:Mark
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to address the ones you listed: It's already illegal, at least in Texas, to release an animal back into the wild unless you are a licensed rehabber. It was the same in Colorado and is the same in New Mexico and California. I don't know about other states in the union for sure, just because I've never lived there or had close family that lived there. So that may be a moot point. At least here the wording for the law applies to any wild animal (defined as non domestic), regardless of natural range and weather or not it was captive bred. I.E even though I have some native animals (red ear sliders, speckled kings), it would be as much a violation of the law to release them as it would be to release a burmese python--or for that matter a raccoon or armadillo or lion. That is true if they're CB, LTC or WC.
As such it doesn't warrant a new law because there are ALREADY laws on the books regarding that.

As far as interstate commerce regulations...they are totally legal (explicitly--the Cons't grants the government that power), but I don't think they're usually done well and can be downright ineffective.

Case in point--the USDA licenses and regulates the breeding and interstate commerce of mammals but there's still crappy breeders, ignorant people with mammals, and there's still operations that go mostly in state and thus escape regulation. And the federal government doesn't have any legal right to regulate intrastate commerce, just interstate. Under some standing SCOTUS decisions regulations may be extended to a purely intrastate operation IF it may have a substantial impact on interstate commerce. I don't agree with those decisions but that's standing case law going back to some price control case arising from FDR's new deal legislation.

There may be state or city concerns that are totally legitimate; animal welfare laws to prevent mistreatment, liability laws concerning escaped snakes or damages caused by escaped snakes, regulations concerning commercial breeding (if a city's got zoning laws for instance)...but those are state or municipality issues, NOT federal ones. I'll oppose any and all federal laws about that simply because I don't feel that the federal judiciary is the appropriate venue. Appropriate legislation will vary from state to state and city to city. For instance, regulating any tropical species in Colorado under the guise of protecting the ecosystem is stupid. A Burmese python, or a Taiwanese Beauty, or a Nile monitor would die really quick in the Rockies. In Florida or LA or MS, maybe it's more legitimate to impose something like their ROC system.

As far as public safety goes...given the empirical data, I'm inclined to oppose any regulation banning reptiles for that reason. No one outside of a herper's household has been harmed by a reptile, and very few pets have been eaten by escaped reptiles.

not only is it illegal its commonly accepted as to WHY its illegal and wrong to release cb offspring. as in ANY animal hobby/industry tropical fish, birds etc etc. its understood and promoted why this practice is UNaccepted. i guess its just me but i see ABSOLUTELY no correlation between this and our rights being taken away in this land of the free. all the pythons in the everglades DID NOT come from personal releases thats just the spin they are using, WAKE UP!!! this bill is an attack from the almighty HSUS plain and simple. anyone who doesnt oppose it needs their head checked and doesnt deserve to keep any reptile/pet imho. i will agree with permitting and feel it should have been done long ago with the big 5 and hots but thats it, there are NO OTHERS. these bills are all about taking, since just its inception its gone from 5 to 9 and if allowed that number will grow every session every year. F**K THAT!
united we stand... and for the pathetic souls who dont oppose this bill i implore you to ask yourselves what about the future herpers the babies that have that same "itch" about herpetology/biology you did or steve irwin did, what will you have to say to them?...oh sorry there were some idiots doing idiotic things with big and hot snakes so i layed down and accepted the proposition that they were/are just too DANGEROUS for anyone to enjoy keep, breed&sell offspring, study, love...

oppose this bill now and get everybody you know to oppose it, god help us all if it passes.

,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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