Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I generally try to steer away from pet store purchases, but this guy couldn't be passed up. He's 4 years old, which is perfect for my 3 year old female that I will attempt to breed this coming season. Should pop out some nice babies, I think.

Female (old pic):

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Diego

SWCHR

Very nice snag there Diego!. I think those two will certainly produce some great looking offspring as well.

Several years ago, I was at a pet store I've sold some snakes to in the past, and saw a KILLER knoblochi that was mislabeled "Honduran Milksnake"..LOL! This thing was an extremely robust, awesome eater(huge rodent lump in belly), approx. 2 plus feet long, and was for sale for $99.99!!!. This thing was insanely tight-banded, and just a fabulous looking specimen. He also told me he could not move the animal no matter how far he reduced the price on it...LOL! He said he was trying to sell this animal for like close to a year or some ridiculous thing.

This just goes to show how most people that go into these pet shops have no clue whatsoever about what they are looking at, or that awesome knob would have been gone in very short order.

Good luck with the breeding bro. Also, another huge plus is that you don't have to wait for it to mature, which is extremely cool!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks bro. The store is actually a reputable herp shop here in town, and the staff is top notch with their husbandry and knowledge. Otherwise I might not have been so confident.
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Diego

SWCHR

Glad to hear that you have a good reputable store nearby Diego, that is really handy from time to time.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I’m interested in why the animal “couldn't be passed up”. Was it price? The question, could an adult male with a clearer pedigree not be found for a reasonably price, begs to be asked here.

I’m certainly not one to say don’t ever buy from a pet shop since I do so myself, but I find it interesting that given the lack of a presented history on this animal some of you staunch purists are still calling this a nice score. I can say nice score (and it is) because my well publicized standard is if it looks like a knob and acts like a knob it probably is a knob but then I get stoned for that view quite frequently.

In the spectrum of attitudes between the hybridizers and the purists I fall somewhere right of center. I can hardly fault anyone who wants to have high standards and seeks to preserve genotypes more purely but I equally can not fault the Thomas’ of the world who cry foul when it is evidenced that the purists are more willing to trash what they do than to practice due diligence in maintaining there own lineages.

I probably shouldn’t post this because the conversation is going to spin out of control but it seemed a good place to make a point that is generally lost down thread in a string of insults.

In any case let the mud slinging begin.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

...again. Why is it always my threads that escalate into maniacal mudslinging?

I thought the price was fair and the store is a reputable one. When the store manager told me it was a proven 4-year old male, I believed him. I have no reason not to.

As far as purity and pedigree, I could care less. We could just as easily degrade this thread into a fight about the purity of any knob bloodlines in the states. Most are questionable, at best, already. It's a good looking snake. Like you said, it looks like a knob to me, so it's a knob to me.
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Diego

SWCHR

Diego, I had assumed as much before I posted and have no problem with this myself. I just found the reaction by some noteworthy. Regardless of intent what may follow could prove entertaining.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Yeah, there have been a lot of knobs bred with pyros from the U.S. sold out ther as pure knobs, but for the record I have seen a goodly number of wild knobs and I would say that is a pure snake from Basaseachic origin (Barker stock). Granted, very few wild Basaseachic animals would look that nice, but I recognize the selected for look.

Rich

Always nice to get your input. I appreciate it.
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Diego

SWCHR

Put quite simply Tony, yes, a great looking knoblochi at the store I mentioned at a great price. Not sure where your're coming from on this, but I have no intent on making it any more than what I just stated earlier. What's with the pedigree talk? The thing was a killer looking knob specimen, simple as that.

Nothing here about either of these snakes warranted anything getting stirred up, so I'm having trouble with exactly why you said what you did. If you want to get some insulting threads started as you described, by all means have at it, but count me out of it, simple as that.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

SIGH....... Just when all has settled and we've opened our Christmas presents, Tony grabs the big frickin' stick and begins to churn the cauldron. Might as well be Halloween.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Jerry, is pionting out a continuing inconsistancy really churning the cauldron? If you honestly examine the point I'm trying to make you would see that lack of attention to the details of a breeders history is THE threat to keeping lines pure. Given the proper attention, the mear existance of generics, crosses or hybrids need not be a concern.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

well....not entirely. I understand what you're saying Tony, but then the message, to some degree, would be: "be wary of pet shop purchases". Which I agree with. But that specimen looks like nothing other than a knoblochi.

Would I purchase from a pet store? Never. But that's my way of doing things as I like to know every detail of where my stock derives. It's a chance people take. However I'd like to think that if the specimen in question looked something "other than", the majority of experienced folk on this forum would say "wait a sec, something's not right", as was the case with a campbelli not long ago in the milk forum. What a fiasco thyat turned out to be with this same notion you bring out. Point well taken, by all means!

I may seem brash, but my advice to others is to stay the hell away from pet store purchases if one cares about the lineage of their snakes if the objective is to breed. Very simple. Because like anything else in life, you get what you pay for. And quite honestly, I'd rather pay out the nose for something legitimate and be able to sleep at night knowing I passed along like offspring to others in this hobby versus saving a few dollars here and there. It's not worth it in the long run. Jerry has spoken. LOL.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

It's funny - maybe I should have clarified that I bought it at a herp specialty shop called Arizona REPTILE Center, not the local Petco or Walmart fish counter.

You can pay all you want, but unless you catch the animals yourself you'll never really know the exact origins of those bloodlines - period. And then when it comes time to sell the offspring, someone will have to take your word for it.

Trust, common sense, and gut feeling all have to be somewhere in the equation when you purchase snakes.

I never said I wanted to produce Yecora, Sonora locality Knobs with this pair. I just want to make some pretty snakes that are fair representations of the subspecies.

With that said, I am done with this conversation. It's starting to annoy the crap out of me.
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Diego

SWCHR

This may seem disingenuous but I agree with everything you said and in no way intended to offend you. Fact is, you seem to hold the same common sense standard that I do so the whole "throwing stones while living in a glass house" thing applies.

I thought the point I was trying to make earlier was quite clear but it's already getting tied up in knots and Thomas hasn't even weighed in yet! In any case, I'm sorry for having been the cause of your irritation. Guess I've once again overestimated my ability to initiate, facilitate or join a reasoned discussion on this topic or even in this forum. A little fishing might be in oder.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

>>>I thought the point I was trying to make earlier was quite clear but it's already getting tied up in knots and Thomas hasn't even weighed in yet!

tony, it is/was clear to me!!! but theres no point in weighing in on anything pertaining to "purity" "locality" on this forum. its simply not worth it unless you type a novel and even then parts will be taken out of context,attacks will commence etc, etc.
as to the OP snakes yeah id say ones a pyro "type" and ones a "knob" type both beautiful snakes.
i lump them all together anyway though so........
i wanna go fishing.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tony this is a good example of what purists commonly call a generic snake. A generic snake is a) any mixed locality snake of known origins that fall within the range of a particular species or subspecies.
b) any snake of unknown origin that has no known hyridization or intergration and phenotypically appears pure.

These definitions allow people to label pure-looking snakes as generics with the understanding that there is always a possiblity of undetectable historical hybridization. I did not invent these definitions. They were in common usage among all the locality breeders that I know of a long time ago. I believe I was the first person to formally post them but as I said every purist or locality breeder out there pretty much understands that the bar for generics is set a little lower than for locality specifics. No purist or locality breeder I know would 'call out' a phenotypically pure looking snake as long as the person having it made it clear that it was a generic. It is only when funky looking stuff gets posted that purity is questioned in generic snakes.

Excellent point Aaron and one I well understand but not exactly related to the point I was trying to make. In hind site I wish I hadn't tried this Diego's post. It was ill timed.

I do think however that rhetoric here against hybrids needs to be toned down. In my estimation there is a spectrum of desirability in the different types of stocks one might work with that, in order of preference, goes like this:

Local specific
Generics
Cross (adjacent sub-specifics)
Cross (sub-specifics)
Hydrids (Species level)
Hybrids (Genera level)

The thing is stocks from generics down have the capacity to be selected and back bred to look like pure examples of the parent stocks utilized in their production. In this sense if the existence of Hybrids threatens the future "purity" of Local Specific lines so do generics. The inconsistency I see is that obvious hybrids, even when clearly represented, get called out as threatening to the keeping of "pure" lines when generics do not. This is in spite of the fact that it's entirely possible to misrepresent a generic as "pure" when it's nearly impossible to misrepresent an obvious hybrid as anything other than what it is!

I'm not advocating calling hell fire down on anything that isn't local specific (there are enough that do that already) but I think it is a valid point that calling down hydrids alone doesn't address the problem of keeping lines "pure".

Two factors contribute to contaminating "pure" lines, misrepresentation, which isn't limited to the hybrid community and failure to establish clear pedigree when selecting breeders. If you want to keep pure lines you first establish pedigree, if that can't be done it doesn't matter if the animal is misrepresented or not, you pass. Nothing else matters to that end and calling down people who initiate hybrid lines or work with them is just posturing.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

what if one works with locale-specific sub specific crosses, from w.c. stock? No way anyone should call it down, unless you just don't want that, if so, don't buy it. i think if people not interested in the original posters' thread would stay out of it, then the discussion that was meant to be would happen, and we could gain a lot of knowledge here and see much more cool stuff.
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Todd Hughes

Hi Diego

Very nice indeed. I like the high amount white on your male. Your female has a type 1 look to her but be surprised when she produces some babies. I've had some nice type IIs and IIIs come out from animals that looks like your female bred to the right male (like the one you have). Keep the pics coming.
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Jonel M. Lopez

WWW.SPSNAKES.COM

Please support the
UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS

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and professional unity for Herps

Thanks Jonel. If my little ones pop out of the egg looking anything close to your stock, I'll be friggin' ecstatic!!
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Diego

SWCHR

I like how knobs have so many different looks, from clean to super black, no black, busy sides, etc. i like lots of crossovers myself, good score Diego!
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Todd Hughes

Me too, bro. I love the high band counts on some and the blotchy high white look on others, like this male. It's awesome.
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Diego

SWCHR

Diego good to see you back.Where are you stationed?
Damn if the pet stores here had snakes like that I might go to them,nice find.

Female

Male (this guy eats like there is no tomorrow)

Thanks again Diego
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Doug L

Thanks, bro! I am in Fort Lee, VA for a few more weeks, then it's off to Georgia for 3. After that, who knows? Glad to see that pyro hasn't lost his appetite. Good luck with him!
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Diego

SWCHR