Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A couple of months ago I got a pair of cb08 knobs in a trade deal from a reputable dealer out west. One looks like a typical knob, but the other looks more like a pyro pyro. Are there any knobs types that do resemble pyro pyros but are still pyro knoblochi??

>>A couple of months ago I got a pair of cb08 knobs in a trade deal from a reputable dealer out west. One looks like a typical knob, but the other looks more like a pyro pyro. Are there any knobs types that do resemble pyro pyros but are still pyro knoblochi??

I'm no Knob expert, but in my opinion the Chihuahua Moutain Kingsnakes (l. p. knoblochi) look more like the Arizona Mountain Kingsnakes (l. p. pyromelana) than the Tarahumara Mountain Kingsnakes (l. p. knoblochi).....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John, I'm no English major...but....what???

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Thees lady named Rosita Chaquita Consuela Rodriguez teesh me that.......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Kevin there is a good bit of variability within the L.p.knoblochi
There are three "types" as described by Steve Osborne I believe, and if you can get his price list or one of his posters, it would help you better than I can describe here, I'm sure.
Definitely there's a type that looks more like a L.p.pyromelana with less of the busy "beadwork" pattern.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

This shows his "types" I,II,& III.
:Mark
Probreeders knoblochi

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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Just snapped this pic of the little guy in question. Like I said, got the pair as knoblochi, but he looks pyro pyro to me. The little female has more typical knoblochi features, but may be questionable as well.

KevinM

the snake in this photo clearly appears to be NOT a knoblochi but rather it's more northern cousin. Nice snake though.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Here is the other one I received as part of the pair. This one looks more knoblochi than the other. Still debating if pure or integrade.

KevinM

now this one much more strongly suggests knoblochi given it's band count and lateral intricacies.....however the lack of intricacies in some areas are weird. I'd like to know what the sire/dam look like. My feeling is you didn't get a true-blue pair of knobs.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>Here is the other one I received as part of the pair. This one looks more knoblochi than the other. Still debating if pure or integrade.
>>
>>KevinM

That one may be a pyro pyro X pyro Knob, but I am not for sure....It could be a knob......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I got a pair of funky snakes LOL!! I am comfortable with the pyro pyro being a pyro pyro. Not so much the knob being pure knoblochi. The bummer part is I like both of them and cant wait to see how they mature. The vendor probably sent them to me represented as what he received them as. I really dont want to breed them together to produce Generic Mtn. Kings LOL!!

KevinM

>>Just snapped this pic of the little guy in question. Like I said, got the pair as knoblochi, but he looks pyro pyro to me. The little female has more typical knoblochi features, but may be questionable as well.
>>
>>KevinM

Looks like a pyro pyro to me.....A pretty one too.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I doubt they are sibs. Looks like you have an AZ.mtn (L.p.pyromelana) and a Mex. mtn king (L.p. knoblochi) pair to me.
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

In the hobby, "Chihuahuan Mt. King" and "Tarahumara Mt. King" are both the same, L. p. knoblochi. Chihuahuan Mt. King is a bit of a misnomer though as about three quarters of the pyro range in the state of Chihuahua is inhabited by nominate pyro pyro. Tarahumara Mt. King is more accurate for the hobby as the hobby stock originated from two basic localities, Basaseachic and Rancho Mojorachic. This would still be a misnomer in the big picture as knobs may also be found outside of the Sierra Tarahumara in places such as Yecora Sonora.

Types I, II, and III are B.S., that is just what Steve Osborn got out of his stock. The sky is the limit really.

I have seen a good number of wild knobs from Basaseachic, Rancho Mojorachic, La Bufa and several pics from Yecora. Even in the heart of knob range one will find about ten percent (maybe more?) to look no different than nominate pyros in the U.S. By the same token one finds occasional pyros in S.E. Az that can look like a knob from the area between Yecora and Basaseachic, and I would have to say I personally doubt the validity of knoblochi as a subspecies, at least until someone does some DNA to show me otherwise.

But, despite the fact the above pictured would not be in the least unusual for wild knobs, I would guess that they are not pure simply because there has been too much selective breeding of good pure locality stock for the extreme "knob" end of the spectrum, that is, the red bands reduced to blotches mid-dorsally laving the white ground color with black and red speckling on the sides.

Cheers,

CC

Very good information.......
I wasn't aware that Pyro Pyro phenotypes are found that far south....
Thanks for chiming in.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Very nice info Rich!! Thanks for the reply. I suspect I have nothing more than Mountain Kings and leave it at that LOL!!