Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey, seasoned veterans and serious breeders, what is the truth?
In doing Internet research on Milks, I see conflicting statements about size differences in species.

Some sources claim that there are no differences between the sexes. Others claim that in Black Milks, males are larger, and that this is uncommon.

Huh? Someone is very confused. What is the truth? Are the sexes generally the same size as adults, or do they differ?

If so, is it subspecies-specific??

I would have to say in captivity the female are larger but only because as a keeper we tend to feed them more.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

The fact is, it all depends on many things, and exactly what type of snake, because there CAN be very significant differences in size depending on what types, and the husbandry of any individual.

When it comes to Black milks, I find that they naturally are approximately the same size, but as "LIRepman" stated, many breeders put an emphasis on feeding the female real well for the taxing task of egg production.

On the other hand for example, male Florida King(floridana) get much larger than females naturally, and female boas being larger than males, etc...

As he stated, in captivity, it's usually the female milks that are a bit larger due to more feedings from the owner. But male gaigae can be quite large as well given the same husbandry. Many factors involved here...LOL!

~Doug

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks for replying, you two. Doug, you seem especially active on this forum and your replies have been very concise & helpful. Most appreciated.

So, in general, "No" seems to be the correct answer. If kept in similar conditions, with similar feeding schedules, the sexes likely grow to be about the same size & length. This is what I thought for Kings & Milks.

(I understand that this can vary with individuals, and differing husbandry. I also understand that these rules may differ for *other* species of snakes.)

Yes, the answer is no - especially in captive snakes.
You will not see either sex consistently larger in any subspecies of milk.

Tim

Third Eye

You're welcome man!,..my pleasure.

Yes, milks are about the same, all things being equal. Certain kings(getula) and some others can be a different matter though.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think if you want to learn about the snakes you should pretty much throw out all the bias in captive breeding. Going solely by hard data, male milks are almost always bigger than their female counterparts. If you look at preserved specimens, I would dare say every ssp. record will be held by a male, so there is your answer. The obvious reason would be the amount of extra energy needed to produce and carry the eggs for about 1/8th of the female's life....coincidentally, that is the approximate adult size differential. And Black milks are not a good example because of the relative lack of available wc data/specimens. I would suggest you invest $10 into Applegate's milksnake manual, this will get you up to speed alot faster.

I am NOT a novice; I've studied the Kingsnake clan since 1992. I've read all the major primers, including the 1995 book from Markel. In it, there is scant mention of Black Milks, and nothing addresses sexual dimorphism for that species.

Moroever, I've spent hours on the Internet researchign this topic. Like I pointed out, there are conflicting accounts. That's why I wanted the opinion of forum breeders.

As another poster indicated awhile ago: There is scant info on this species, even in care sheets.

I don't need basic info on care & species; I had specific questions regarding a topic NOT mentioned in the common literature.

However, your tendency (we've been warned about you on this post) to chide, scold or mock without having all the facts is noted. At least you're consistent.

(Don't bother replying, I won't even read it.)

I am NOT a novice; I've studied the Kingsnake clan since 1992. I've read all the major primers, including the 1995 book from Markel. In it, there is scant mention of Black Milks, and nothing addresses sexual dimorphism for that species.

A-I never accused you of being a novice, but seeing a flurry of posts is pretty telling. Majory primers?? Markel's book was full of pretty pictures but very little new information. I mentioned black milks as an example to prove that some ssp. just dont have enough specimens to develop an opinion.

Moroever, I've spent hours on the Internet researchign this topic. Like I pointed out, there are conflicting accounts. That's why I wanted the opinion of forum breeders.

A-have you read Williams book on the systematics of milksnakes? I think there is some info you would like there. Comparing captive breeding accounts and naturally occuring accounts is NOT conflicting info, its apples and oranges.

As another poster indicated awhile ago: There is scant info on this species, even in care sheets.

A-there is plenty of info out there you just have to know where to look.

I don't need basic info on care & species; I had specific questions regarding a topic NOT mentioned in the common literature.

A-I was trying to point you to what may not be common but scientific literature. The FACTS remain about the size of preserived specimens.

However, your tendency (we've been warned about you on this post) to chide, scold or mock without having all the facts is noted. At least you're consistent.

(Don't bother replying, I won't even read it.)

A-Whoever you are, you come on the forum and ask for info and I respond cooly and calmly and cite info and literature....and you rip me for it. Classic.