Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering if savs can be fed the same diet as a tegu? with ground turkey, chicken parts, mice, egg. Im thinking about getting one but dont want to end up paying alot on just mice/rats to feed it.

you can feed your monitor or tegu whatever you want. doesn't make it a good idea.

there's a reason whole prey items such as weaned rodents are the preferred food for monitors (and tegus, actually) and that's because they have pretty much a perfect balance of nutrients that a monitor needs.

Savs will eat eggs and turkey and chicken, but they don't need to, and neither do tegus. Relying on them as a substantial part of the diet is going to give you an obese, unhealthy lizard of any kind. Feeding rodents appropriately is not expensive. They don't need five to ten mice a day, just like you don't need five to ten hamburgers a day. You'll eat them, sure, 'cause they taste good, but you'll get fat just as sure as the lizard will.

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

I was under the impression, from most of tha articles I've read about stomach contents in wild monitors, that rodents did not make up the majority of their diet. Insects, and other animals and invertebrates were the staple. In my experience a balanced mix of insects, invertebrates, rodents, chicks, and lean meats that are vitamin supplemented, seems to work well. Too much of anything is probably not a good idea. Of course it also varies species to species. Some monitors don't eat rodents in the wild, or at least its not documented.

Many species of snakes eat a wide range of animals in the wild, not limited to rodents, but we have marvelous success keeping them on a strictly rodent diet.

A diet made up of whole prey items (including but not limited to mice and rats) is the way to go with animals the size of monitors. Smaller species such as dwarf monitors are going to require a more insect-based diet, but larger species such as savannahs, blackthroats, etc, do far better on a rodent based diet.

These animals aren't in the wild. We are trying to keep them successfully, not necessarily mimic natural conditions (truly natural conditions also include a multitude of parasites and animals that are considerably lighter weight than their captive counterparts). Yes, the wild animals eat a varied diet including birds, other lizards, and large quantities of invertebrates...but that's all they can get and those are all whole prey items that include all of the inner guts and gore.
Chicken parts, beef liver, ground turkey, dusted insects with empty bellies, none of those things are suitable prey items because they are all lacking something important.

Sure, you can feed chicks to monitors, but they are young birds that are lacking the meat and nutrients that, gasp, an unweaned rodent has for the same price.

The random assortment of parts could be used as "treats", or an occasional food item, but they should not be considered a staple component of the diet. The person posting was concerned about cost; I spend maybe $5 a week on rodents and roaches for my monitor. He's a dumeril's, not a savannah, but the sav is just built to be rounder - it doesn't need to eat much more. I don't really need to supplement, and I don't have to worry about balancing anything.
A parts-based diet is full of supplements and switching things up and mixing up ratios of livers and gizzards and hearts and eggs with ground turkey. And none of those organs are even the ones that store that important vitamin, D3, which is how so many monitor keepers successfully keep their animals without UVB!

Try and fight it, but the more you learn about monitors and rodents, the more the whole prey item thing makes sense. The most successful monitor keepers and breeders in the world feed a rodent-based diet for a reason!

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

Best way to save money, head to a seafood section in a super market and pick up some whole shrimp. If you're 'tight' with the butcher there, they might even give you their throw aways. Whole fish(smelt,mullet,etc) works very well and if purchased in bulk could save you a lot of money and at the same time, provide the healthy food. Other small shell fish work too. Small clams and muscles are also cheap in bulk. Snails of many sorts are really favored by monitors, go and collect some garden snails and keep them in a bucket for a few days with dirt and leaves in there, then use them as you go.

I know a good deal about monitors and I also keep up with what the experts are saying. I'm not saying one thing is better than the other. I'm also not claiming to be an expert. The purpose of a FORUM is for people to share different insight into the animals we love. You can keep your animaml however you choose and I'm sure it will do fine. If your going to be on a forum then be prepared for discusion and disagreement. I don't know anything about you or your experience, I'm sure if your posting something, your doing so because of years of experince on what works. We are just scratching the surface on monitor husbandry, I can still remember when people thought we had to keep monitors like snakes(temps, diet, set up, etc.), but the hobby has come a long way. Be open minded and willing to learn. I have heard and read from plenty of experts the same things that you and I are both saying. I'm sure several years down the road, we'll know even more about keeping these lizards, and it will probably change how we keep some of them. I do try to mimic the wild diet of my animals, as well as, habitat and I feel that if I can't get close then I should not attempt to own them. As for your other comments, there just silly , why would I argue about my lizards having parasites or being thin like in the wild?

Sav feeding can be a bit difficult since they do eat everything you give them usually. Ground raw turkey is fine once every 2 weeks or so with a vitamin supplement. but the main diet should consist of rodents and insects. Even an adult savannah should be provided with a meal of insects every week at least. I believe insects are not only a nutritional benefit but also exercise. I like to throw a handful of crickets and mealworms in every few days and let my sav run around and go crazy. You could also do it in a clean bath tub if you hate the crickets that hide and churp in the cage. And as far a a young sav is concerned I would feed on a insect diet offering pinkies only 1 or 2 days a week.

Maybe I'm taking you wrong, but I'm not sure why you seem so upset...?

Yes, discussion - my response was a discussion on why I said a whole prey item diet (which is usually a rodent based diet) was a better idea than relying on various parts to make up a diet.

Please, discuss what makes up your parts-based diet and with what species its been successful.

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

THanks, Sulfurboy, for mentioning whole shrimp and whole smelts. They are great and EASY to include in their diet... along with mice and bugs.

I wish Mark Bayless was still with us (God rest his soul) because he had extensive information from studies of what savs ate in the wild. His wisdom would make a great contribution to discussions like this.

If any body has wild diet dta/information for savs,I wish they would chime in on this.

Of coarse, a captive diet does not have to mirror a wild diet *exactly*, because duplicating that may be way too difficult, expensive and unneeded.

However, I think it is of great benefit to *know* what our animals feed on in the wild, so we can use it as sort of a guide to give them a proper captive diet that is more like what nature intended.

I remember when I had my first monior in the late 70's-- all I fed it was smashed up chicken parts. If I could go back in time with what we know now and re-correct my past "sins", I sure would.

But all we can do is learn and go forward.

Cheers and happy New Year.
Todd G.

I think a part of what I said originally was missed - Whole prey items. Whole fish are a possibility.

I have the sav book recommended on the pro-exotics website, I'll post up an image of the breakdown of the contents of wild savannah stomachs. If I remember correctly, babies at a ton of different invertebrates, including scorpions, millipedes, and a significant portion was a specific small invertebrate found in Africa. Adult diets were made up of almost half millepedes, a quarter scorpions, and the rest various invertebrates, lizards, and small rodents.

Obviously, trying to find millipedes to feed savannahs would get expensive! Another thing not often considered is that wild lizards and wild insects (such as snails) often have various intestinal parasites that no one wants their animal to have.

The emphasis is on whole prey items - with a rodent "base" meaning that that's the foundation of the diet, with other things included.

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

I'll try to find it, but I think I remember one of the reptile issues having info on Blackthroat stomach contents, but I'm not 100%. As far as Savannahs, one of the monitor books, recent one, had some info on wild diet. I think there is a recent reptiles issue with an article on savannahs in it also. I certainly can't get the snails and insects and such from africa, but like sulfurboy mentioned, snails and fresh crustaceans are great. I feed rodents, I just try not to make anything the staple. I bread Savannahs about 2 years ago and they where on a varried diet for the entire time I had them. I've kept niles, croc monitors, waters, blackthroats, savannahs, dumerils, mangroves, kimberlys, tristis and now Melinus. I try to get close to what they eat in the wild, depending on habitat. I try to learn a lot about the envoirnment they're from and go from there on prey items. For instance niles tend to live in a different envoirnment than blackthroats. I would incorperate more fish and eggs in a niles diet than a blackthroats, thats all I'm getting at.

I suspect that the diet of wild monitors can have seasonal variation as well as maybe a monitors diet can vary quite a bit as they grow.

A juvie monitor could have a diet that includes alot of insect matter, while a larger climbing monitor could easily raid birds nests for eggs and chicks, at least when they are in season.
(Think mangove monitors or Dums climbing up into the mangrove trees to raid bird nests in nesting season.)

Large tree monitors may not eat alot of little white mice or baby lab rats, but I bet they can sniff out roosting bat colonies in tree cavities and devour them!

In my humble opinion..

Everybody should weigh in.. even if they might get criticised a bit on this forum.

It's through lively debate that makes this the most interesting forum on kingsnake and keeps all participants engaged.

It seems like when the most heated and lively discussions are going on... thats when the MOST knowledge and information gets exchanged.

And thats good, right?

Cheers
Todd G.

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oops(spelling)

I have not been keeping these guys long but I notice a lot of savs are over weight. The female I rescued was very over weight. I am trying to keep her diet on mainly raoches with a f/t rat once a week until she looses weight. The male on the other hand is under weight. He recieves rodents on a more consistent basis until he puts some more weight on. Both monitors get quail and fish every once in a while just so they do not get bored. So I am pretty much feeding them on a basis of individual needs.

On another note I also like to hide the food in different parts of the enclosure. I do not know if this is beneficial, but the seem to enjoy looking for the food. When I feed them on tongs, I like to make them chase the prey item around for a while before I give it to them. Make them work for the food. The small male is especially fond of this practice. I never new he could jump before I held a rat above his head and he jumped up and snatched it.

Thats a great point. I will feed my monitors in different locations in the cage as well as out of the cage( f/t mouse on tongs and make them chase it down).

You can add pill bugs, nightcrawler, dullcolored flying insects to that list of 'money savers' too. Almost everything can be harvested in someones mulch garden/compost pile, i do so.

As for the discussion on food items to feed and whats good, you want to just make sure that the animal is getting the brain,bone(shell), organ,fur,feather content. Nutritional Balance.

The reason most monitors dont really eat rodents in the wild is because thats not really a source of good there. they eat bugs birds and other reptiles because thats what is available. They dont avoid eating mice because its not good for them. and since you obviously cant provide them with their exact natural diet, people had to figure out the next best thing.

Ive read somewhere(forgot where) that the contents in a monitors belly is usually what ever is flourishing that season.

Judging on how they eat in captivity, I would guess They eat anything and everything they can catch, which would be a huge variety of things. Im sure it would be hard to say exactly what they eat in the wild, even though im sure there are several staples of their diet that show up more than others.