Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What do you think are the main differances between wild meansi and captive? I estimate coloration, patterns, etc.

Scott

Though I still cant get used to the name they will have the typical captive breeding differences. Typical patterns and colors should be completely random, differences removed or exaggerated in captivity. WC Meansi are as hard to find as ever, but they are still there. Captive breeding should lessen the demand on wc specimens, but true locality bloodlines do exist. The pic is of a blaze on the left and a hypo cross on the right.

One’s made up by some guy named Means, and the other is made by somebody else.

K.Krysko proposed the name meansi in honor of Bruce means.
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Most of mine were selectively bred for color as wild goini/meansi are usually quite drab in appearance IMO.
That said, I'm heading back down the "wild look road" as well.
Meansi was used to describe what is believed to be the race of patternless animals from that region.
Here's a wc female

and this pic is of an adult male wc (in shed)

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

very nice Mark, some day I want to kick it up in there! I wouldn't matter if I find my target, I'd just like to hike the habitat.
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Todd Hughes

Nice pics Mark. That's what I was talking about the vast coloration differences between wild and captive bred meansi. I've had blaze meansi and while they are stunning animals, am leaning more for the wild look than the selective bred. Thanks!

Scott

Scott I have some colorful Apalachicola kings I've kept back too. When I lost the male that was producing the best, I began to acquire the wild look again. When my best (colorful) are ready, the babies they produce should be great if you like red.
I mean, many of the ones I have produced are much more red and keep it longer than many blaze.
Just ask Zenny.
The wc male hopefully will breed into the colorful line this year as well.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Thanks Mark! Been looking and wanting some nice meansi for sometime now, just been holding off till I could find what I like. Sounds great to me. Thanks!

Scott

Scott, and although the names can tend to be used interchangeably, the meansi is thought to have a smaller range than goini that is basically in the center of their ranges in Franklin and Liberty County, whereas the "goini" tends to also range in a radius that goes around these counties as well. But this is not to say one CANNOT find a patternless meansi phenotype beyond the small described center range, because they HAVE been found in those other areas too.

All this is still problematic to me and many others, and could just be a clinal variation of sorts similar to the brooksi/floridana variant. I'm just mentioning this for what it's worth.

The mensi/goini thing still has me going....hmmm?(rubbing chin).

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks Doug. This is problematic to me too, many taxonomists have said that meansi and goini are not valid. Like goini being L.g.getula X L.g.floridana and if it is a relic population? Then the debate over L.g.yumensis if it is pure californiae or a X with splendida. It can get confusing more than what I think it should be.

Yeah, very problematical for sure, however, there is no doubt in my mind that the natural form known as "yumensis" is merely a californiae x splendida intergrade, But very unique nonetheless, or that brooksi is just a clinal variant of floridana as well. Certain things are definitely more obvious than others.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very true bro, I agree with you 100%. For years I've known that yumensis is a californiae X splendida, just as nitida and cunjuncta are variations of californiae. Same with floridana and it's many variations. Be it a variation of a snake or of intergradation, a cool snake is a cool snake! Why can't taxonomists see it the way it is?

Scott

"Why can't taxonomists see it the way it is?"

Well, their job is solely to describe it, and distinguish it's suubspecific validity, not to say they aren't way cool..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Goini seem much more L.G.Getula(eastern)complex, than isolated Floridana IMHO. same with Outer banks .
As far as Means taking away an already described sub, may be validated only as a geograqphic varant of Goini.C

"As far as Means taking away an already described sub, may be validated only as a geograqphic varant of Goini"

Very likely indeed Christopher "D-Dawg"..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

While most of us can see intergradation by simple pattern anomaly, Meansi takes away Goini only to replace it with an equally ambiguous title...and for what purpose? Because Goini described both the nominate and intergrade form? Couldnt the intergrade definition be split away from Goini without such a change?? Couldnt that have been obvious enough to others? That PhD thing was a circle j^rk from start to finish. Further, I have yet to see the "pure" form breed true(100%)even once. And if it doesnt breed true technically the ssp. shouldnt exist as such and should revert back to Goini as they do breed true.

Mark, correct me if I am wrong but according to definition, of those 2 pics the first is a definate intergrade and the 2nd still a slight intergrade because it is not 100% patternless. I think with the "mosaic florida" kings this genetic anomaly is demonstrated, and in this area that its abundant because it has a higher survivorship. The essence of goini is the variability and the essence of meansi is purity....and I just dont see any present or past isolations that would account for the lack of gene flow. Its not like its an insular area, there are no significant topographical changes that would be delitarious to gene flow....I just dont buy it. While goini is a dumping ground for most all intermediate forms as well as the patternless, it is the simpler theory. Archem's Razor: choosing between 2 theories the simpler is usually more correct, right?

My views are VERY similar on this too Jeff. Just doesn't seem so cut and dry to me at all either. Far too much unexplained "gray" area with this issue for my liking.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I have to agree with Jeff on this issue as well. In fact, I am believing more and more as I attend this forum and hear the pros and cons of the various subspecies that L. getula is just one big species with numerous specialized forms to fit the environments they dwell within, similar to some of the taxonomy ideas surrounding E. obsoleta. I personally feel that coloration, pattern (or lack of), and even size/robustness are all regulated by the environments the animals are thriving within. In the case of the defunct brooksi, werent these animals more likely to be found in the lighter colored limestone deposits? Perhaps patterning, size, etc. is more related to the geology, plant species, and food sources than actual subspeciation. I am no taxonomist, and may be thought completely off my rocker, but thats my opinion.

There are other examples. In a very urban area there exists a small population of eastern milks that are different. Its a marsh area marked by heavy cattail cover. These milks are a light tan color just like their cover. As you go south into NJ the earth becomes more red.....and the milks become more red, coincidence? These are still eastern milks, but adaption of color and pattern as predator avoidance is not subspeciation.

I was not posting my photos as descriptions of anything "pure" one way or the other. Just two snakes found in the same area earlier this year. Two I intend to breed if/when the time comes.
I would say the first little female is closer to what you may call goini for sure. She's lightening up at every shed. Actually had quite a bit of color..a lot in fact.
I tend to think the original goini described by Allen et al was indeed intergrade.
If meansi is a phenotypically pure patternless snake, then there are few if any in the hobby. Technically there is some sort of "pattern" on nearly every one I see.

This female cb is the closest adult I have to "patternless".

I would've loved to see this guy alive.

I am not a herpetologist, scientist, taxonomist, mayor, or even a great thinker so I cannot correct you on much, you see.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Those are some really, really, nice snakes. Regardless of if they're an actualy subspecies or not... they're awesome.

Mark, I LOVE goini, all forms and the pattern variability. I dont want to be the one eventually picking at every little anomally to determine "purity" because, quite simply, I have never seen the patternless breed 100% true. I'm always exited when new stock is used, and the new possibilities. But you are a man on the ground there, this rhetoric coming from me may meet the gospel coming from you. What do you think? Obviously I am not going to treat the "new" dilineation any differently. Do you think anyone in the hobby will?? If they dont, where does that leave the usefulness of "all that work"?? Hapy new year! Jeff

I guess one of the things I might have mentioned was that I have never seen two absolutely patternless imeansibred together.
Darn close,maybe, like the pair I will use this season hopefully.
You have? And they did not give you patternless babies?
Also of note was that the dor above had a solid belly color.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Mark, I have bred patternless to "patternless"(havent found a perfectly patternless female yet). My female LOOKED patternless as an adult, but was not born that way. The young were mixed. To me, the only test would be to get a pr of baby patternless WCs(good luck finding a wc patternless baby female,lol), raise and breed them and look at the young.

I was born in Jackson County, Florida and grew up hunting goini. These snakes were ALWAYS very RARE and the speckled ones the rarest of all. I don't agree with the "meansi" name or explaination. In the old days they were called blotched Kings and that's what was generaly found. I think these are nothing but a morph similar to the Everglades Rat Snake and normal Kings are found in the SAME areas. Sorry Bruce [who I know very well] their just a varient of E. Kingsnakes...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com