Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A general question to the forum members:

From Biology 101, I know that F1 stands for the "first filial" generation resulting from a specific cross between individuals of a parent generation. It is often used in the context of hybridizing two unrelated strains.

However, I get the impression that many herp breeders also use the term to refer to the number of generations an individual animal is removed from wild-caught stock. For example, if W = wild caught, then the cross W x W would produce F1 individuals, and the cross F1 x F1 would produce F2 individuals, and so on. Is this correct? If not, what am I missing?

Also, what if one backcrossed F1 x W? How would the offspring be designated then? It gets complicated real fast . . .

Thanks in advance for your enlightenment!

You are right that biologists use the terms to describe how many generation something is removed from any type of cross. Reptile enthusiasts have borrowed the terminology to show how many generations an animal is removed from wild caught stock.

Ideally an f1 animal is the offspring of two wild-caught animals. However people often use the term to describe an animal that has just one wild caught parent. This is the case with the Vivid f1 thayeri. They are from a wild caught mother and a VR line sire.

I have some pyros that are the result of a WC X f1 pairing. I don't call them f1's or f2's, I just call them what they are (WC X f1).

Greg

Thanks, Greg, for confirming what I had figured out.

Tom

Its all confusing to me so I call them as they are either sold to me or how i bred them. for instance if VR sold them as f1 or f2 i label them that way. if i produce them i just say exactely whats in them such as applegate X applegate or VR X applegate.
I am a stickler for detail so I like all the details presented.
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Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

forgot to add, I thought the F generation meant how many generations out the wild they were but I had someone tell me that it meant each generation of a specific pairing and not just wild collected animals.
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Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>Its all confusing to me so I call them as they are either sold to me or how i bred them. for instance if VR sold them as f1 or f2 i label them that way. if i produce them i just say exactely whats in them such as applegate X applegate or VR X applegate.
>>I am a stickler for detail so I like all the details presented.

Soooo.....Michelle,
What do you call a Lemke/Sipperly/Applegate bred to a VR/Vermilya/Hammack?

Do you really have to call it a Lemke/Sipperly/Applegate/VR/Vermilya/Hammack?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Soooo.....Michelle,
What do you call a Lemke/Sipperly/Applegate bred to a VR/Vermilya/Hammack?

Do you really have to call it a Lemke/Sipperly/Applegate/VR/Vermilya/Hammack?"

Yep I would have to say it was a Applegate Lemke Sipperly X hammack Vermilya Vivid
But I would have to advertise it as a male or female of mixed lineage and then go into detail when the person asked for specifics.
Sorry I just love details.
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Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>Yep I would have to say it was a Applegate Lemke Sipperly X hammack Vermilya Vivid
>>But I would have to advertise it as a male or female of mixed lineage and then go into detail when the person asked for specifics.
>>Sorry I just love details.

I guess that WOULD be the best way to do it.....
Advertise PURE Thayeri with mixed lineages and explain these lineages to the buyers....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>>I guess that WOULD be the best way to do it.....
Advertise PURE Thayeri with mixed lineages and explain these lineages to the buyers....

I understand to each his own, but I think being honest about whats in them is important. Since I didn't collect them I can't call them mine. If i breed them here at my place all i can say is I produced them, but i have to give credit to the lines that made it possible.
I do like to let the buyer know what they are getting. I think it only right to know whats in the lineage of your animals. This also helps when something odd pops out like an abberancie or something knowing the lines will sometimes help pin point it.
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Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

The use of the F1 connotation for us anyway is basically what Greg explained much better than I could. Generally it refers to the number of generations that they are removed from wild caught.

But I have been guilty of using it to describe how many generations a specific animal may be removed from a specific out cross or characteristic we may be working with.
Cherryville Farms

The term can be used for any breeding project to describe your first generation. But it is often assumed in cases of herp breeding projects to quantify the number of generations from the founding WC stock. But it could also be used for any project to produce a morph or hybrid.

I think for it to mean anything at all you just need to define your P or founding generation. That is why people say F1 from Wild caught or F2 from albino.. or whatever they are working on.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

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