Reptile & Amphibian Forums

From an mtdna standpoint are the classes of pits pines, bull and gophers readily distinguishable?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Yes they are, but the problem comes in on what to use as a baseline with as much intergration as is going on.

Good Luck,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms

John, wouldnt mtdna studies be done on wild populations in the heart of the ranges, or at the very least using a statistical baseline formed using several valid represenatives of the species??

One would wish that would be the case, but with some "wonderful" collectors (Bulls into Lousiana, southerns into New Jersey are a couple of examples)that I personally know of having released captive into virgin range and things like the hopi's use of snakes from all over in Arizona during the religous things they do. It is really difficult to find 100% for sure phenotypical animals anywhere.

If I remember right John Ginter alluded to finding or seing a northern in Arizona as a result of the hopi's releases. But he will have to refresh my memory on that.

Cherryville Farms

John, this whole ball of wax drives me nuts. I dont know why, but it does. See the recent posts on the milksnake forum as example. I appears with the growing population of non-professional herpers conducting unofficial but quality field surveys and finds, the whole taxonomic issue is being pushed further and further away from black and white LOL!!

I always hate to hear stories about people releasing captives in the wild especially non-natives. It is against the law for obvious reason.

I think that for the most part (luckily) isolated releases of non-natives probably don't survive. However the issues with the pythons in the everglades illustrates that seriousness of those careless actions! You should consider a pet trade non-locality specific snake to be "non-native" to any where! A northern pine snake is not just a northern pine snake across that ssp.'s known range.

Not sure who J Cherry is mixing me up with but I have never seen a northern in AZ.

I would also like to clarify one thing that John said. It is my understanding that some of the Hopi folks did historically use a snake in part of their ritualized ceremonies, however they used a very specific sp. of snake.

What did happen I am told is that a group of folks (city council? ) in the town of Prescott AZ would hold "Hopi Days" during an annual town celebration. A few folks would dress in native american garb and "re-inact" the Hopi ceremonies! There are even old post cards to prove it! I am told by multiple sources that these guys would buy snakes from people and solicit the capture of snakes to use. Members of the Genus Pituophis were selected because they tend to be big and impressive animals ( as we all know!). I am told that the animals would be released locally at the end of the Town's annual week of hijinx!

This is no longer practiced and affected only the local area around Prescott AZ...

I think that in reality generally speaking there has not been a notable muddying of genetic waters across the range of Pituophis in the US. I am not sure that this can be said for corn snakes at least at the local level. I hear alot of stories of irresponsible corn snake breeders releasing surplus animals into the wilds of their back yards and adjacent wood lots. Obviously this practice is a major no-no even if done in known corn snake range!

There are the genetic reasons addressed here as well as potentially serious health concerns for existing wild populations..... how would you like to be the guy responsible for introducing a pathogen into a the wild population!

avoid the urge... do not release captives into the wild!

I know of a well known Tucson breeder that would readily admit to casually releasing captives! We are our own worst enemies!

I think it is far worse than many may believe. A typical pratice of herpers in the 60's was to release most CH young. It was what they did. The list is large. Commercial collectors also released non-saleable herps into areas where the herps were not originally collected.

I believe in the 70's gopher snakes were scattered all over their range by collectors and breeders who had no use for the young. I actually hear there are still some who regularly release surplus hatchlings back into the wild.

Florida stands out because the climate is very suited for many herps to not only survive but procreate. Burmese are in the press due to their size. There have been reports of cobras, monitors, palm vipers, many types of Iguanas along with so many turtles and now torts as well.

I do not believe Florida is the exception. I knew many breeders that tossed all sorts of kingsnakes into the wild that they could not get feeding. Many hets of(name the snake) are regularly tossed for economic purposes. Missing something though. This is far from a perfect world. With this, we also have people doing such things deliberately.

Thread above this one is actually speaking of the possibility of just such an occurence. Bullsnakes into Louisiana. There has always been alot of smoke around this one but who really knows.

Does keep me leary of all these new morphs people find in the wild these days. Amazing how many isolated populations of colubrids that are turning up with out the typical traits of the subspecies. Makes the finder believe he has come upon something big when he may have only come across a dumping ground.

Louisiana appears strongly related to unusual finds in herpetoculture. E. slowinski and P. ruthenvi are just two examples. I have also observed E. guttata south of slowinski territory, but north of Baton Rouge, LA that are more yellow and brown in coloration. It could be the Great Mississippi that has a geographic bearing on what is being observed in LA, E. Texas area. Perhaps it will one day be shown P. melanoleucus and P. sayi are decendents of P. ruthveni?? Maybe P. ruthveni is a relict integrade of bulls and pines at the focal point near the river systems that may have isolated these populations?

"Maybe P. ruthveni is a relict integrade of bulls and pines at the focal point near the river systems that may have isolated these populations?"

There are many who think this very possible. Those new to the hobby as well as several who have been keeping for decades.

Has any comparisons with LA and Black pines been done? They are fairly close in range if you consider they WERE found in Washington Parish,LA at one time.

Wrong person to ask on that one. Hopefully someone with a scientific background may be aware of such a study and would be willing to post.

Though I would not mind seeing someone start a thread on Black pines and the various locales they have and still inhabit. Came across some pics of these guys out of Mississippi many years ago. Probably gone from there as well.

Not to excuse irresponsible behavior but I'm not sure this is the huge concern you guys are painting this to be. 1) The number of released animals relative to existing populations is insignificant. 2) Recruitment into the adult population is extremely low for even wild born and one would reasonably surmise that it would be even less for released captive-bred animals. 3) Animal populations are in large part a product of their environment. Various genotypes and phenotypes exist in given locals because that is what survives there. The short term impact of an insignificant number of released cb animals that actually interbreeding with the wild population might have is going to be attenuated with each successive generation.

I think the much greater issue is human manipulation of the habitat altering what is selected for. Human induced monocultures are not going to support the level of diversity and evolutionary potential that undisturbed natural habitats would.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

tony.....

I agree with you. The points you make are quite valid. When I hear about guys dumping their surplus hatchlings into the wild I have no idea what kinds of numbers we are talking about???? Presumably they fall prey to what ever is hunting the area and or simply fail to thrive....

As you mentioned this practice is still a very irresponsible behavior! The potential disease concerns are still a big issue...imho.

"The potential disease concerns are still a big issue...imho."

Indeed! The problem is well documented.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Other then gopher tortoises...are there other examples of disease spread through captive released animals? Even in that situration, if I remember correct, was the result of combining isolated colonies. While I do not advicate the deliberate release of cpative animals, even if they are from the locale populations, I must say though, I find it intriguing that I can now head to Florida and catch a python. I know that my opinions are contrary to popular sceintic thought, but I like to think of man as being part of nature and not contrary to it. I do not understand why when a crane or heron carry a species to a new location that is "natural" and if man does it, that is unatural. With man or without man...the status quo is not static...it is always changing.

I think its the amout of change that man can so quickly bring about that is often the concern. Example, fire ants. They've effected a huge change in local ecologies and are something a heron wouldn't likely have spread. Relative to this I think a few released snakes here and there is pretty negligable, though still irrisponcible. Even the pythons in the everglades are likely taking a hell of a beating due to this cold snap.

As for other examples of vectors being carried by released cb snakes the only example the comes to mind is the Aruba Island rattlesnake. There are others but the specifics just aren't coming to ind just now. Too much ginger and whiskey.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Sorry John, I thought it was you that had mentioned the releases with the indian rituals being done for PR. But evidently not. I did not intend to mention your name in association with something as vile as release of animals into the wrong wild habitat. You and I can both get into enough trouble by ourselves, without any outside help. LOL

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