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What is a subspecies? (long winded)

Sunherp Jan 05, 2010 10:24 AM

To begin with, I’m neither the quintessential lumper nor splitter. A lot of the discussions regarding the subject seem come down to a general misunderstanding of what a subspecies is, and in what ways the information provided by giving a population subspecific status is useful. Dell and I had a long, in depth conversation about this a few nights ago (beer and a good cigar always invoke our powers of thought…and conversation…).

So… what IS a subspecies, then? There are essentially two “types” of subspecies: primary and secondary, for the purposes of this paragraph. Herein, “primary” subspecies will be considered to include populations within a species which have achieved a relatively high degree of phenotypic and genotypic stasis over a given geographic area through selection. These populations blend or meld (what is technically referred to as primary intergradation) in areas of transitional habitat or geography with adjacent populations which have also undergone a specialization and relative character stasis within their given geographic region. These primary subspecies are, in my semi-educated opinion, what we see with MOST triangulum populations from Canada to Ecuador and Venezuela, and from Maine to the Great Basin.

“Secondary” subspecies, however, have arisen in allopatry through selection and genetic drift (etc.), and come back into contact with one another following some ecological or geological event. When formerly separated populations reunite, the degree to which they intergrade is highly variable. They may breed together as if they were never separated, only breed occasionally, or not breed at all. In the first case, it’s easy for us to define that both populations remain part of the same species, just as it’s easy for us to define them as belonging to separate species in the last case. It’s that middle-of-the-road situation that causes us grief. These secondary subspecific processes are, to me, what’s likely happening between triangulum proper and elapsoides.

So, what’s the utility of subspecies names if they really just meld from one to the next across the species geographic range? Simple. They provide us with clues (major clues) about the animal’s natural history. When we see a reference to Lampropeltis triangulum syspila, we note that the animal has a certain appearance, is an inhabitant of east-central US, prefers to secrete itself beneath rocks and logs in grassy glades and forest clearings, and feeds primarily on skinks, small snakes and rodents. If we see a reference to L. t. celaenops, we note that the animal has a certain appearance, is an inhabitant of the southwestern US, lives in arid to semi-arid grasslands and canyons, and feeds primarily on Sceloporus lizards and small rodents. These are very useful bits of information, and provide us with a much clearer picture than just labeling them all Lampropeltis triangulum.

Please feel free to share your thoughts, compliment me, or disagree!
-Cole

L. t. multistrata – Thomas Co., NE

Image

Replies (71)

DMong Jan 05, 2010 11:14 AM

HEY!!, didn't I just see this somewhere else??..LOL!

Anyway, very well put my learned friend!, makes for some good head-scratching!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

KevinM Jan 05, 2010 01:01 PM

Cole, very interesting and thought provoking post. I am myself waffling back and forth with my own thoughts regarding taxonomic issues and subspeciation. Particulary in regards to the genus Lampropeltis. NOT being a taxonomist, or paying particular attention to that aspect of herpetoculture personally, I generally agree with most of your logic on your post. It appears subspeciation is relevant to demographic and phenotypic expression of animals within a given species. However, I also get the feeling that scale counts (not to be mistaken for scalation differences like divided vs. undivided anal plates/presence or absence of suboculars, etc.), blotch, and ring counts are too arbitrary and I see much overlap using these methods. Also, coloration differences in patterns are probably influenced by ecological factors as part of adaptability/survivability in certain regions. Plus you have the whole issue of secondary subspeciation you present in your post which appears to me as the zones of integration that throw everyone for a loop LOL!! Sometimes I wonder if we are missing more detailed oriented differences such as differences in hemipenal structure that can hold true statistically within the subspecies. Are we confusing "compatible" with "same" too much? Lets face it, it has been proven corns and kings can fairly easily hybridize and are essentially compatible. However they are definitely NOT the same genetically. So now I am basically scatching my head and arse and wondering which end is up on the whole issue!!!

Sunherp Jan 05, 2010 06:10 PM

Kevin,

Nice, well thought-out response! I can tell you’ve got an interest in the animals’ natural history. Good stuff! I’ll touch on a few of your points, here by adding some of my thoughts and experiences:

Regarding coloration and minor details of the squamation, I agree (as do most learned herp-folks) that these characters are highly plastic. It’s actually been shown in recent years that width, number, and shape of the bands in (at very least) some tricolored Lampropeltis can be heavily altered by incubation temperatures. That renders them essentially useless for identification. These characters are also highly plastic and subject to strongly selective forces. Perhaps his zonata majesty will stop in here to educate us further? (Mitch… that’s you…) These problems with morphology are a major reason genetic and biochemical (allozymes, etc.) work is being used more and more frequently these days.

Regarding hemipene morphology, I agree completely. It should also be noted, though, that this character IS used quite frequently in diagnostics.

As for confusing “compatible” with “same”, I’m not exactly sure what you mean, but I’d be inclined to say, “No.” On the other hand, we ARE finding more and more cryptic species that are very different from one another on biochemical, ecological, or behavioral level, yet look identical (or nearly so).

You bring up the reproductive “compatibility” of Lampropeltis, Pantherophis, Pituophis, and the like. Let’s start by clearing the air and saying that the above-mentioned genera are very closely related (along with a few others). While it’s true that they can and do interbreed in captivity, it’s a truly rare event for interspecific hybridization to occur in well sorted lineages in nature. This is even more so true for intergeneric hybridization, as the forms are even further separated by their evolutionary histories. If this weren’t true, we wouldn’t have separate species. There are many factors that interplay in keeping them more or less isolated reproductively. Google pre- and postzygotic isolating mechanisms. It’s cool stuff!

Anyway, I really enjoy hashing this kind of stuff out, so bring any thought to the table that you may have!

-Cole

KevinM Jan 05, 2010 08:04 PM

My intent was more along the lines within the species. Just because a florida king can breed easily with an eastern, are the same species, doesnt exactly mean they are "Same" as some folks may view them. It could be they are just HIGHLY "compatible".

That was my bad attempt at explaining the previous comment I hope I clarified with this post. Just trying to bring home the compatible vs. same issue. My opinion is more in line with species/subspecies, not with genera.

Yeah, its all heady stuff to me to a certain extent, and I will admit you lost me with a few terms LOL!! Still, I am glad you remarked that work is being done on a more detailed morphological and DNA basis. However, as I read and interpreted on a post by John Cherry recently in another forum, even DNA testing can be biased/erroneous if improper baseline is established.

Jeff Schofield Jan 05, 2010 01:16 PM

First let me thank you for accepting dissenting opinions, a novel approach lost on the forum recently.
Over beer and cigars many of us have had the same such discussions. It would most commonly occur around Temporalis(or "Temporalis"as any who studied milks at all would be confounded by the variation. I am neither a lumper or splitter myself but have resolved many definitions of SSP. depending on the audience. Taxonimists, biologists, locality hobbyists, hobbyists and laymen all use the word differently.

Taxonimists' definition would be by scale count, ring count, or hemipenal shape or other anatomical feature. Strictly quantitative.

Biologists' definition would be part anatomical and part geographic. A mix of quantitative and qualitative data.

Locality hobbyists' definition would be quantitative and qualitative...but SHOULD be less on the common or scientific name and more on simply the locality itself. Example:St Marys locality MILKSNAKE, not "temporalis" or "Coastal plains milk".

Hobbyists' definition would be entirely qualitative. Geography counts,locality data aside.

Laymen's definition, could be a snake that LOOKS like the pic in the book or online. No history, neither qualitative or quantitative.

Sorry to confuse the issue, JMHO.

KevinM Jan 05, 2010 01:49 PM

I quess I would have to side with the taxonomists barring scale and ring counts, and erring more towards definitive structural differences in morphology. Just my opinion/preference. Unfortunately within the species, even these morphological features are probably not cut and dry as say between subocs and cornsnakes, or L. getula and L. triangulum for that matter. I feel the cost of dna or other definitive testing is probably way too expensive to justify in a world that could probably give a rats patoot how related or not subspecies of snakes are to each other LOL!! I know I would rather research money be spent on curing cancer or diabetes than subspeciation of snakes!! Hey, just keeping it real in my own world, no offense to the herping brethren with different view points!!

Also Jeff, you use IMO a very controversial "subspecies" that to my understanding is argued to be an integrade and has its own issues above and beyond locality. I also need to disagree with you on locality, simply as the boundaries of the locatilies are vague in my minds eye/my opinion unless DEFINITIVELY separated by barriers/surrounded by boundaries. Boundaries like impassable mountains, unswimmable rivers, or inhospitable terrain/climates need to exist IMO to truly form a distinct locality, somewhat similar to the distinct canyons/foothills the various localities of Lichanura boas occupy. In other words, the odds of them dying trying to reach other suitable habitat would probably occur if they attempted to move out geographically.

Regardless of differences or similarities in thought, these topics never get boring to me and are always enjoyable!! Good God what I would give for a hot Fuente and a cold Sam Adams right now LOL!!

DMong Jan 05, 2010 02:05 PM

"Good God what I would give for a hot Fuente and a cold Sam Adams right now"

What I wouldn't give for a hot "Daisy Fuentes" right now!

~Doug

Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

KevinM Jan 05, 2010 03:16 PM

Sam Adams, they all look like Daisey Fuentes LOL!!

DMong Jan 05, 2010 10:09 PM

LOL!!!, hmm,.....good point!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

joecop Jan 05, 2010 11:52 PM

I agree with that one. Although ever since I turned forty I don't grade them on any 1-10 scale. It's just pass or fail all the way. (Married now, but I can still say pass or fail) LOL.

DMong Jan 06, 2010 12:40 AM

HAHAAA! I hear ya bro!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Sunherp Jan 05, 2010 06:34 PM

Where can a guy get a box of those?

-Cole

DMong Jan 05, 2010 10:23 PM

I wish I knew!, but if you get a box(a case)of Samuel Adams FIRST, you can do as the rest of us have done at times, and simply "think" they look like that..LOL!

...before Samuel Adams.................................after Samuel Adams
Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

joecop Jan 05, 2010 11:53 PM

HAHAHAHAHA. Nice Doug.

DMong Jan 06, 2010 12:49 AM

Yeah, it's something we can all relate to, just like a cool lookin snake!..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

JKruse Jan 06, 2010 01:04 AM

and I thought it was just ME......ahahahaaaaaa......
-----
www.freewebs.com/jerrykruse

Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

SDeFriez Jan 07, 2010 06:28 AM

Mmmmmmmmmm! I wonder how many Samuel Adams it would take to get to that state?

Scott

Jeff Schofield Jan 05, 2010 08:30 PM

I think the sooner we all realize that there is more than 1 definition of this word the sooner we all get along. Most of the forum's arguements stem from trying to have a single definition. We all use the word the way we want.
There are easier ways to determine relatedness.
My Monster Island milks I believe hold a key. They are from a Island more than 30 miles offshore from the next nearest population. No genetic drift across that amount of ocean. The glaciation that created the islands can be dated, so from there the isolation began. Measuring a genetic distance over a KNOWN timeline should be able to estimate genetic drift within the species and either establish or debunk other SSP based on their genetic distancing. It makes sense, finding the cures for Aids and cancer, part time job,LOL.
Full circle, our ideas about the definition should remain flexible because 5 minutes from now they will change again. Chondros and Elaphes are just the beginning. I think if you find which of those catagories the audience fits you will be able to understand each other better. Or not, there are a good number of people that see in black and white not shades of gray. In case anyone cant understand me, I am both a biologist and a hobbyist.

KevinM Jan 06, 2010 09:32 AM

Yup, I do agree to that!! There are definite diverse beliefs or practices amongst the herp community with regards to subspeciation. I will admit I am a bit old school in my definition of subspecies and as an example I still feel mexmex, greeri, and thayeri kings are subspecies LOL!! I personally don't look at specific locality other than broad range as a pass/fail for validity of subspecies, but only insofar as it may be a certain look of that subspecies I am interested in (ie, SC easterns, west Texas spendidas, etc.). To me a holbrooki from Baton Rouge, LA and a holbrooki from Picayune, MS are both holbrooki. Even if they have pattern differences or either one is not the "classic" example of a holbrooki.

Its the diversity of thought that keeps things interesting and opens doors for learning new things.

Jeff Schofield Jan 06, 2010 11:43 AM

The step you just took is one alot of people dont....to admit that they are just LOOKING at the animal. Looking is not the same thing as studying it.

KevinM Jan 06, 2010 01:37 PM

This is a pretty accurate assessment. My views and opinions on taxonomy are probably based mainly on the visual appearance of the animals themselves. So, its pretty easy to SEE why I personally consider animals like mexmex, greeri, and thayeri to be separate subspecies. They LOOK different to me in ways I really cant explain. More like a word association game? As a hobbyist, I never truly realized the depth and breadth some folks not actually working in herpetology/taxonomy have committed to studying these animals, their classification, or their purpose in the scheme of things within their habitats. Any studies I have made on animals were and are ususally for the sake of proper care and husbandry. My posts on these subjects are usually personal opinion based on my own reflection on these topics, a few things I pick up here and there, and the enjoyment of good conversation with topics I love LOL!!

Sunherp Jan 05, 2010 06:15 PM

You've got an interesting and valid point regarding the audience you're speaking to. It's a valuable point to remember who you're speaking with when trying to discuss the less superficial topics in biology.

-Cole

RG Jan 05, 2010 01:38 PM

I'm not sure how I would delineate them in the wild...it seems difficult to do in my mind. I would see pockets of "representative" classic subspecies surrounded by intergrades, all relating back to a common species?

Maybe if there were obvious natural barriers that kept the subspecies apart it would be easier (like an island!)?

Essentially I think you're correct Cole.

Along the same lines, I think any captive line breeding that we humans do...(which is often the case with many of the morphs out there)... we are essentially at the beginning of creating our own "subspecies" of what ever.

How long do you have to line breed before you call it something else?

We don't just breed for high white, or yellow, or black, etc...we select the one's the thrive on F/T, grow well, and overall do well in captivity.

There isn't a geologic or other natural phenomenon at work that causes change...we are effectively the genetic stressor. Survival of the fittest (and the best looking) in capativity.

Domestic dogs are considered a subspecies of wolves, right? That's what I see us doing to our snake captives!

I know a little off topic...but I found this good link:

http://www3.utep.edu/leb/mammalogy/species.htm

-Rusty
Link

Sunherp Jan 05, 2010 06:23 PM

Rusty,

Good stuff, buddy! Way to blow the dust off of your thinkin’ cap!

You’re idea of how subspecies work is just about dead-on for “primary” subspecies. The “pockets” you refer to are the places where characteristics are more or less static.

Line breeding will, indeed, have some powerful selective pressures on the animals. We (keepers) are probably even more harshly selective than the natural world, since the animals have only a specific set of variables in which to live.

Domestic dogs are generally formally classified as a domestic variant (or subspecies) of the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus): Canis lupus familiaris.

Keep it going, man!
-Cole

thomas davis Jan 06, 2010 11:58 AM

my opinion is piebald, leucistic, whiteside are differant individual reccesive mutations but maybe they are all one in the same just being expressed differantly, to my knowledge there has been no double homozygot produced within those particular mutations, more breedings are needed to know for sure.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

thomas davis Jan 06, 2010 01:57 PM

well being the "quintessential lumper" i'll say they(ssp.) do/can help with general id.
understanding l.triangulum(all snakes for that matter) as a WHOLE is first and foremost. then learning nuances like habitat/seasons, availible food sources, number of bands, hemipenal shape, etc.etc. fall into the splitting for the "quintessential splitters" imho ssp. are the cart and sp. is the horse pulling it. putting the cart in front of the horse(which is done ALOT here) is silly.

thems some WEIRD looking poohs that snake is havin?!what gives w/that???

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

terryd Jan 06, 2010 05:48 PM

Thomas Davis quote:
"well being the "quintessential lumper" i'll say they(ssp.) do/can help with general id."

Glad you finally agree, it seems you have always fought this line of thinking in the past, which has caused a lot of arguments on this forum.

Thomas Davis wrote:
"understanding l.triangulum(all snakes for that matter) as a WHOLE is first and foremost."

Agreed.

Thomas Davis quote:
"imho ssp. are the cart and sp. is the horse pulling it. putting the cart in front of the horse(which is done ALOT here) is silly."

Correct me if I wrong but, I don't remember anyone one ever putting subspecies before species. I do remember you arguing that subspecies didn't matter at one point didn't I?

-Dell
Image

thomas davis Jan 06, 2010 06:46 PM

>>>Correct me if I wrong but, I don't remember anyone one ever putting subspecies before species. I do remember you arguing that subspecies didn't matter at one point didn't I?

ok terry your wrong... there are many that feel ssp. ARE sp. bringing the term "pure" into it and such, and as ive stated imho ssp. DOESNT matter when breeding captive "pet" snakes.

,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

terryd Jan 06, 2010 08:48 PM

Thomas Davis wrote:
"ok terry your wrong... there are many that feel ssp. ARE sp."

Hmm who are they and how many are there? Are you talking about forum members here, or are you talking about your Kool-aid drinking cronies. Because some subspecies may deserve a reclassification, but most do not, in my opinion.

Thomas Davis wrote:
"as ive stated imho ssp. DOESNT matter when breeding captive "pet" snakes."

Ah! That's our sticking point. First, I don't consider any captive snake a pet. Pet by definition would mean domestic or tamed animal kept for companionship. I think you would be hard pressed to convince me that captive snakes are domesticated, tame, or provide companionship.

More importantly: Subspecies do matter, the locality has helped to define the said subspecies.
Example: Lampropeltis triangulum syspila from Missouri bred to a Lampropeltis triangulum celaenops from New Mexico would be an abomination to all triangulum.


I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

thomas davis Jan 06, 2010 09:23 PM

>>>Example: Lampropeltis triangulum syspila from Missouri bred to a Lampropeltis triangulum celaenops from New Mexico would be an abomination to all triangulum.

thats just RETARDED, and is EXACTLY what i was saying about putting the cart BEFORE the horse.
have fun playing dirty harry.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

terryd Jan 07, 2010 01:03 AM

Oh my God your hopeless Thomas.

Image

JKruse Jan 07, 2010 02:19 AM

.
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www.freewebs.com/jerrykruse

Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

thomas davis Jan 07, 2010 12:24 PM

awww geeee thanks terry it means so much coming from a devout splitter such as yourself. what a shame.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

SDeFriez Jan 07, 2010 07:15 AM

>>>Example: Lampropeltis triangulum syspila from Missouri bred to a Lampropeltis triangulum celaenops from New Mexico would be an abomination to all triangulum. Agreed, they would basically be mutts!

Scott

Tony D Jan 07, 2010 09:30 AM

mutts = abominations

but

generics also = mutts

therefore

generics must also be abominations

Nice!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

SDeFriez Jan 07, 2010 10:37 AM

I'm referring to man made mutts like L.t.amaura X L.t.taylori, etc. Those to me are mutts and an abomination.

Scott

Jeff Schofield Jan 06, 2010 11:40 PM

"More importantly: Subspecies do matter, the locality has helped to define the said subspecies.
Example: Lampropeltis triangulum syspila from Missouri bred to a Lampropeltis triangulum celaenops from New Mexico would be an abomination to all triangulum"

It has been done, you cant turn back time. Abomination is a harsh word, and if you are a lonely syspila or celaenops.....you gotta do what you gotta do. Males are only as faithful as their options! Love that line!

terryd Jan 07, 2010 12:55 AM

Jeff,
I know it's been done in captivity, that doesn't make it right. Having some integrity towards the locality animals is more important to me.

Harsh words?! We're lucky this forum is so tame because I can think of much harsher words then abomination.

Jeff wrote:
"Males are only as faithful as their options! Love that line!"

I know you meant this in fun and I hate to poke at your favorite line, but what a cop out statement.
I've been w/ my wife 16 years and I've had plenty of options at one time or another, and being unfaithful was never an option considered. INTEGRITY there's that word again.

-Dell

Jeff Schofield Jan 07, 2010 02:01 AM

CHILL. I made a play on words, as I am sure if you were a lone syspila and had no other choices YOU might mate with a celaenops.....LOL, right?
INTEGRITY? Some of us like to taste all 28 flavors of ice cream before deciding on a favorite. Some of us even more than that. You took the oath and you have kept it, do you deserve a medal? Hardly worth pushing it on others is it? I have as much INTEGRITY to my life as you do to yours. One has nothing to do with the other. It was a joke and you took it seriously, shame on you.

terryd Jan 07, 2010 11:27 AM

Schofield wrote:
"CHILL. I made a play on words, as I am sure if you were a lone syspila and had no other choices YOU might mate with a celaenops.....LOL, right?"

Your right, who could blame a syspila for his digression. I'd blame the breeder.

Schofield wrote:
" INTEGRITY? Some of us like to taste all 28 flavors of ice cream before deciding on a favorite. Some of us even more than that. You took the oath and you have kept it, do you deserve a medal? Hardly worth pushing it on others is it? I have as much INTEGRITY to my life as you do to yours. One has nothing to do with the other. It was a joke and you took it seriously, shame on you."

Your not married, knock yourself out, eat all the ice cream you want.
I never asked for a medal. Where did that come from?

My point was that the line you posted. "Males are only as faithful as their options." Is a cop out. It"s a blanket statement that makes males appear that we can't control ourselves if a more enticing option came along, and it's bullsh!t.

I'm sure your life has integrity Jeff. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.

-Dell

Jeff Schofield Jan 07, 2010 11:42 AM

Dell, if you were a syspila in a sweater box with no hope of finding another syspila....would YOU mate with a celaenops??

No hard feelings, I just didnt think your definition of INTEGRITY applied there. FIDELITY maybe,lol.

Tony D Jan 07, 2010 07:54 AM

Reproductive isolation between subspecies is not a condition that exists in nature so why it is so vehemently espoused for captive populations eludes me. The religious fervor some have for this " personal preference" is something I don't think I'll ever understand.

For my part I like classic looking forms and don't have much appreciation for the wide variation that exists between them whether that variation is from natural populations or captive produced crosses. From the standpoint of "purity" I just like to know that what is in the genetic mix is not from crosses any further out than to naturally adjacent subspecies. I don't view the milks from the central flint hills in KS as being anything but gentilis, syspila integrades but if someone does the work of selectively collecting and breeding them to the point that the line consistently produces classic looking syspila, I don't have any problem calling them syspila.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Sunherp Jan 07, 2010 09:53 AM

I figured I'd jump in here an play a little bit of a mediator, since I'd prefer to keep my thread from denegrating into something like what we'd see over in the "getula Octagon"...

Tony,

I think you and Dell are more in line with your thinking than you may realize (not that I can speak for Dell, but, well... I am... LOL). He's no stranger to gene flow, and keeps at least 6 breeding groups of intergrade locality animals that I can think of off the top of my head. I believe what he's saying is that syspila and celaenops are separated by a vast area (and gentilis) and inhabbit totally different ecological regions. To breed them together bastardizes anything unique about them. That's a totally different situation than breeding a Flint Hills, KS gentilis X syspila intergrade with an IA syspila X triangulum intergrade. While I wouldn't be likely to do the later cross, personally, I wouldn't get my panties in a wad over it. On that note, I've got no problem with "generic" temporalis, either.

Anyway, I hope that clears up some misunderstanding
-Cole

thomas davis Jan 07, 2010 12:30 PM

>>>I figured I'd jump in here an play a little bit of a mediator, since I'd prefer to keep my thread from denegrating into something like what we'd see over in the "getula Octagon"...

what a baby, grow the F**K up...your thread ahahahahaha

roflmfao

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tony D Jan 07, 2010 04:18 PM

Uncalled for.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Joe_M Jan 07, 2010 05:44 PM

>>Uncalled for.
>>-----

Yes, but unfortunately not unexpected.
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Joe

JKruse Jan 09, 2010 08:48 AM

YOU JUST NEVER FAIL AT TAKING THE LOW ROAD TO STUPIDITY.....HAPPY NEW YEAR JACKA$$........WANNA-BE FR...........LOL........


Image" alt="Image">
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www.freewebs.com/jerrykruse

Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

DMong Jan 09, 2010 12:23 PM

HAHAHAHAAAAA!!, the fact that he is like that isn't funny at all, and it's a constant deficit to the entire forum, as EVERYONE will say.

But your post CRACKED ME THE HELL UP!!!AHAHAHAHAAA!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Jan 07, 2010 04:16 PM

I think we're in line too. I just kind of wince when we start referring to animals as abominations. It's a bit over the top.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

terryd Jan 08, 2010 01:58 PM

Tony, your point may be right, abominations could be a bit harsh.
It's not the animals I'm really referring to, it's the breeder that would put that pairing together (syspila to celaenops).
I was thinking of using Dr. Snakeinstine but "I" thought that sounded to harsh. What if I change it to irresponsible, uneducated, thoughtless, or hare-brained?
Any of those descriptions less harsh to your propriety?

-Dell

Tony D Jan 08, 2010 03:41 PM

I would say such pairings are not well considered. At a higher level, more thought should go into putting breeding groups together than simple curiosity, convenience or just doing anything to produce some salable units. The thing is, pointless and ill-considered pairings aren't limited to crosses or hybrids. I saw some red X xanthic bulls on the classifieds once. If there is a point in creating a red bull that isn't red, it's quite beyond me.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Jeff Schofield Jan 08, 2010 06:10 PM

Too many guys think the morph race is like the arms race or space race. So many combos, many are nice looking, but many others that simply arent that much different. I'm not naming names, Ball Pythons, Ball Pythons, but particularly these newer multimorphs lose all resemblence of the original animal.

Aaron Jan 08, 2010 03:23 PM

"To breed them together bastardizes anything unique about them."

This is the best way I have ever heard it put on this issue, although I would not say 'bastard'. Degrades or eliminates is a more accurate and thus less judgemental way of putting it.

I don't like hybrids but I have nothing against those who choose to make them, it's their choice and it's a free hobby. But the degredation factor is very real and this is what both sides need to watch out for or be careful with. Pure lineages should be every bit as important for hybridizers as they are for purists. You can't make a 50/50 cal/corn cross if your cal king has floridana in it and your corn has yellow rat in it.

DMong Jan 08, 2010 04:08 PM

Yeah, and the ironic lop-sided part to all this, is that hybridizers can screw things up for genuinely pure lines in the hobby, but purists CANNOT screw things up for the hybridizer. Only one offender in this issue.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Aaron Jan 08, 2010 05:13 PM

Sorta. It's not usually hybrizERS who screw things up, it's the hybrids themselves being in the wrong hands. The wrong hands means people with insufficient knowledge and people who lie. Unfortunately people with 'insufficient knowledge' and 'people who lie' misrepresent pure snakes as well.
I don't think you can single out a hyridizer who accurately represents their snakes when there are people all the time misidentifying pure snakes.
The only hybridizers I dislike are those who try to push an 'it doesn't make a difference' or an 'I don't care what it's called as long as I can sell it for a few bucks more' attitude but as I said, this attitude is not exclusive to those who make hybrids, it's often found in those selling pure snakes as well.

Tony D Jan 08, 2010 08:56 PM

Thank you Aaron. At least someone agrees.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Jeff Schofield Jan 08, 2010 06:25 PM

Not entirely true. Outcrossing and adding new blood is always essential in keeping pure animals representative to their lineage. I dont like the idea of domestication, it is opposite to why many of us got into this to begin with right?

terryd Jan 07, 2010 10:49 AM

Tony D wrote:
"Reproductive isolation between subspecies is not a condition that exists in nature so why it is so vehemently espoused for captive populations"

I agree w/ your above statement to a degree Tony. But when two different subspecies are so far apart in habitat that they would never meet and breed in their natural settings, I try to respect those naturally occurring subspecies locality traits in my collection, by not mixing other subspecies localities that took so long to diverge from each other.
Example: syspila to celaenops.

Tony D wrote:
"From the standpoint of "purity" I just like to know that what is in the genetic mix is not from crosses any further out than to naturally adjacent subspecies."

I completely agree w/ you.

Tony D wrote:
"I don't view the milks from the central flint hills in KS as being anything but gentilis, syspila integrades but if someone does the work of selectively collecting and breeding them to the point that the line consistently produces classic looking syspila, I don't have any problem calling them syspila."

Again, I agree w/ you for the most part. But your Flint hills syspila came from an intergrade locality, and should state that in their notes or record keeping.
Because I wouldn't want to mix those dirty looking Flint hills syspila w/ my pure Marion co. syspila.

-Dell

Jeff Schofield Jan 07, 2010 10:54 AM

Tony, let me play devils advocate here. Are you saying that NJ x NC temporalis is ok because they are the same ssp? What about say a temp x gentilis where the localities are CLOSER than that of your cross? I think its safe to say we cant go be subspecific NAME, the genetic distancing hasnt been proven yet, so as breeders what holds true? In this arguement I think I side with you because there are some really nice milksnakes whos genes should be reproduced. I dont think we forgo them because we dont have locality. At the same time we all have to realize that even the subspecific name means next to nothing compared to locality. We as breeders sweat it because we have to put something down on the deli cup.....and re-education, we all know how difficult that is,lol.

HondoAberrant Jan 07, 2010 09:57 AM

Bravo!!

Same here, my marriage vows mean something to me as well...especially on this 2nd marriage.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

Tony D Jan 06, 2010 03:43 PM

Good post Cole.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Sunherp Jan 06, 2010 06:12 PM

Glad you liked it. All that schoolin' ain't for naught, I guess! LOL

-Cole

cn013 Jan 06, 2010 04:25 PM

I'm going to mull this over a bit more in specific reference to utilizing drift as a means to better qualify the overlap between elapsoides and triangulum. Aside from that you're spot on -- though I believe I already thought that. It's likely amazingly complex and sometimes even random (in so much that natural variables may evoke 'unnatural' pairings). A more or less primordial intergradation based on necessity?

I'll not get too deep here but I'll say two things... One, it must be cold up there cause here you go again =) Two, one of the nicer milksnake-influenced elapsoides I have ever seen came from SE SC. Yet I have seen moreso classic examples of elaposides further north along the coast. What this means.... I dunno exactly. Ha. I'd bet that there well could/should be more fringe or peripheral populations of more triangulum throughout our continent exhibiting mutual characteristics of varied ssp.s or even overlapping further in appropriate niche environments. I'm just saying... large temporalis-like elapsoides do exist well-inland smack in the middle of nominate triangulum country. Just makes me wonder intently where else these can exist. Could even help me speculate on syspila populations in their NW range extensions. Many do tend to appear to share a lineage w/ gentilis... while some distinct pops. just seem to toss out some stellar syspila.

I hope this is somewhat coherent but DayQuil prompted me to reply.... let's just hope it didn't hinder!

Sunherp Jan 06, 2010 06:18 PM

You and I could talk for hours about our various "temporalis" hypotheses... and have! LOL

Hope all is well in the deep, deep south. We're up to our eyeballs in snow right now. I suppose that's why I've been inside so much reading textbooks on evolutionary theory and the mechanics of speciation! Good ol' population genetics...

-Cole

cn013 Jan 06, 2010 04:30 PM

These are two independent ssp's and one subsequent naturally occurring cross... I'll re-iterate what a few have said and I tend to believe a bit better. Not nominate triangulum.... but Relict syspila!!!!

KevinM Jan 06, 2010 05:16 PM

Your post brings up an interesting twist to me. That is, who determines the nominate form of a species? What criteria is used to base a certain form/population/phenotype as nominate? And then, further utilize this classification to describe and classify subspecies? I am just curious as how this scientific process evolves by "those" who make these decisions we abide by in the hobby.

Sunherp Jan 06, 2010 06:07 PM

Kevin,

The nominate form of a species (=the nominate subspecies) is the first form to be named by science. It does NOT mean that it is the ancestral population in any way, shape, or form (gentilis and sinaloae are not subspecies of the eastern milk, for example). I should have included a bit on this topic in my original post, as it's a common misconception. I'll detail it below:

The nominate form of a species (like L. t. triangulum) is just as much a subspecies as any form named later in time (L. t. gentilis, for example). I've seen this misunderstanding time and time again from those less versed in scientific literature and biological processes. In a more detailed example, Lampropeltis triangulum from the Northeastern US was the first named form of the species. When another form was discovered to be conspecific (let's say syspila for ease of explanation), the first named form gets it's specific epithet repeated as it's subspecific epithet making it L. t. triangulum. The Red Milk is then known as L. t. syspila.

Long story short, subspecies are an artificial construct that provide us with the utility to describe the genetic, ecological, and morphological variation across a species' range. They are, in other words, essentially snap-shots (excellent descriptor, Chris H.!) of insipient speciation.

-Cole

Jeff Schofield Jan 06, 2010 07:42 PM

"provide us with the utility to describe the genetic, ecological, and morphological variation "

Cole, I'm sure you see that depending on who is using the word that genetic, ecological or morpholigical(and others)individual definition applies.

Sunherp Jan 06, 2010 06:08 PM

Always a pleasure to see your animals, even if your posts are drug-induced... LOL

-Cole

Tony D Jan 07, 2010 07:20 AM

I was going to comment on the same thing but the example I thought still held. Coastal appear more freely integrade with eastern milks than with SKs.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Joe_M Jan 07, 2010 05:46 PM

Great post Cole. I thouroughly enjoyed reading your perspective and it makes a whole lot more sense than others I've read.
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Joe

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