Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Delaware has passed new regulations banning breeding of boa constrictors so I will be selling all of my projects/animals. I am sorry to have to give up some projects that I have spent years on. I wish everyone a great breeding season.

Bill Kirby

...sorry this country of ours is going to hell in a handbasket...
-----
1.0 c.b.02' 7' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 6' Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07 5' Amazon Basin Redtail Boa Lola Boa
1.0 c.b. 05 6' Hypo Sonoran Gophersnake
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 Oscar 10" "Jaws"
"...does it bite?"

n/p

Sorry to hear that Bill.. Good luck with everything.. It will effect us all whenever we loose another state..

Dave Savickey

Do you know who or what organization made this a law ? How can we contact them to help. Have you notified PIJAC or USARK ? Maybe this can be changed.

That is absoluetly unbelievable and heart breaking !!

I'm really sad to hear that Bill

. . . Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Sorry to hear that.. I am afriad we will all be shortly behind you in doing the same if this bill passes.

I did not know other states were already looking into passing a similar bill on their own.

Next the governement will want to come in our house to make sure we have not removed the tag from the mattress that says PUNISABLE BY LAW - DO NOT REMOVE.

I guess the government has too much time on its hands and does not feel war, poverty, education, homelessnessness or any number of other items take priortiy.

I would like the Gov to FIX THEMSELVES and all of the current problems before taking away rights of people just trying to raise a few pets.

Oh wait.. Boas and Pythons are the cause of all our problems right. Now I see why the Gov is paying SO much attention to our pets instead of helping out its people.
-----
Thanks
Shawn Morelan
www.Southernboids.com

Bill - do you have a copy of the law? What other reptiles are banned? Mark Hauge

Here's a link I found. I think it's the right one.
Link

Here's an article about the new law.

Link

To another state that does not have such a ridiculous law.
-----
Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

sorry to hear that. That has got to be completely nauseating.
-----

Zack Greens Reptiles

I bet you have a large investment in time and money your loosing out on. Is a move possible for you? How did your state come about this decision and why?

Are there boas wrecking havoc with the environment up there?

I don't understand why they would pass that type of legislature.

You can probably thank The HSUS.

Just a guess...

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

First, there is this:
6.0 Permit Exemptions; Permit Requirements; Permit Prerequisites; Waivers

6.1 The following exotics are exempt from the permitting requirement of the Department:

6.1.2 Reptiles: Anoles, Agamas, Asian Water Dragons, Basilisks, Bearded dragons, Chameleons, Geckos, Iguanas, Skinks (except the five-lined skink), Swift lizards, and Tegus.

Obviously boas are not listed specifically. But read on:

6.2 Unless specifically exempt from the permitting requirement as presented in regulation 6.1, all persons who would own or have custody of an exotic animal must first obtain a permit issued by the Department. To obtain the required permit from the Department, the prospective adopter, owner or custodian of an exotic animal must:

6.2.1 Provide the Department with satisfactory proof that the exotic animal will be confined within two enclosures, designated herein as primary and secondary.

6.2.1.4 Shared enclosures:

6.2.1.4.2 Sales Permit holders:

6.2.1.4.2.1 Sales Permit holders are allowed to breed exotic animals in the Herbivore and Reptile class in the State of Delaware in accordance with regulations 4.5.2, 7.5.2.10, and 11.4.5. (I underlined the one that would have an impact on animal choice)

7.5.2.10.2 Members of Reptile class prohibited from breeding:

7.5.2.10.2.3 All giant snakes when average adult body length of the species is larger than 5 feet: Anacondas, Pythons and Boas;

There's your possible loophole. They're talking about SPECIES, not subspecies. If you were to average the adult lengths of all SPECIES of boas, including males and females, you may end up with an average less than 5'.

I don't know that it'll stand up and I haven't crunched the numbers myself, but it's a POSSIBLE loophole. I think if combined with the fact that you're running a business in a responsible manner that it may get you a sales permit... possibly??

Or, you could just move. I suppose it depends on how close you are to a border of another state and how dependent you are on living exactly where you're at now.

Either way... good luck to you Bill.

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

after doing a 5 minute search, I'm starting to feel less confident in my "loophole" theory.

But, do the math and see if it works. It'll probably take quite a bit of work since most online sources tend to cite maximum size as opposed to average size.

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

I read that section. Early in the document it describes a public request to remove the restriction concerning large constrictors. I wrote a long letter to the State Veterinarian describing my business concerns and I think that comment is about me. If you read the regulation it is designed to make it very difficult to keep and breed snakes. The enclosure requirements and permit requirements for a good size collection and permits for each baby produced would make it very difficult. I had requested having a breeders fee for a whole collection but the rule requires payment for each animal and each individual baby produced.

I am a surgical pathologist and work 50-70 hours a week in a good job. It would be very difficult to find a similar job in another state in my field.

What is a shame is that I won't get to produce some of the new boas that I have been working on. The Motley leopard project is ready to go with the motley males het for leopard being big enough to breed. The 50% hogg island blood boa males are also big enough to breed back to the 50% hogg island het proven adult females. I think this blood generation would stay even lighter than the first generation. Also there are many other projects I was just starting to gear up for. I look forward to seeing what everyone else produces in the following years.

Bill Kirby

Wow Bill,
Sorry this isn't going to work out for you.

Are you considering any legal recourse to recover the cost of losing the business?

I can't imagine what I'd do if I were in your shoes... well.. yeah I can, but I'm not going to share it on a public forum...

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

What if you breed boas in one state and drop them off to be shipped out at another state??? Delaware isnt that big.... Maybe you could take a drive every couple of weeks to ship out your boas
-----
Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

Bill, I wish you the best of luck in whatever actions you take. Nobody else can say what is right for you, and whatever the decision is, it is respectable.

As for those who think it would be a good idea to move so that you can keep your animals, I would ask how many of them would do it. I can say I love my animals, and I love this hobby. Many can. However, in these times of pending legislation, an uncertain future for the business would definitely weigh heavily on my decisions.

If he moves, where can he go? If the ban goes into effect, what has he accomplished other than delaying the inevitable? I think it would be wiser to hold off on a move until after the bills have their day on the floor. Rebuilding a collection later is a lot easier than buying a new house, uprooting yourself, trying to get a facility going and then having everything ripped out from under you again.
-----
Davey Giltner

And what really blows is that government seems to have no problem taking something that is legal today and quite valuable and making it illegal tomorrow and turning your sizable assets into squat!!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Bill,

The industry is losing, when you go. I am sorry to hear things have turned out this way. I also hope you're able to find a new species to enjoy as much as you've enjoyed Boa constrictors.

Regards,
Jordan

That sucks, was there much discussion, public debate or media coverage before this became law? I wonder how many other states are headed in this direction?

State Agriculture Department officials, who have been working on a set of comprehensive regulations governing exotic animals for more than a year, say the new rules will be better for the animals and for the public.

But for people like Terry Rogers, a Millsboro-area resident who rescues snakes whose owners no longer want them, the new rules mean more paperwork and an added expense he can ill afford.

Rogers currently has 18 snakes -- each of which will require a $25 permit that must be renewed every three years. Every new snake he acquires will require another permit and another $25.

"I don't mind buying a permit every three years if it was a single permit to cover all my reptiles. I can't afford a permit for each one," said Rogers, who is disabled and lives on a fixed income.

Rogers and others also say the new regulations may force some people to give up their exotic pets -- and that many will disobey the rules and get their pets on the Internet or the black market.

"There's going to be a lot more people trying to get rid of their snakes. There's one on [craigslist.com] already. [The owner] is trying to get rid of it," Rogers said.

The new rules, which were published Thursday in the state's register of regulations and take effect 10 days later, cover a wide range of wild animals -- practically everything from aardvarks to zebras. Any wild mammal, hybrid of a wild mammal and any reptile not native to Delaware is defined as exotic.

Venomous snakes, which already are illegal to possess, will continue to be outlawed. So will Gila monsters and beaded lizards -- both of which have poisonous bites -- as will Komodo dragons, ferocious lizards that can grow to 10 feet in length, weigh 300 pounds and sometimes eat humans.

Other lizards are permitted, but controlled. For instance, Nile monitors and other monitor lizards can be owned with a permit, but the new regulations prohibit permit holders from breeding them.
Nile monitors, which can grow to 5 feet in length and have sharp claws for tearing at their prey, are generally considered a poor choice for a pet. But on Jan. 16, 2002, New Castle County police found 42-year-old Ron Huff dead inside his Newark apartment with several of the Nile monitor lizards he collected on top of his body, which had been partially consumed.

The new rules also cover any exotic herbivore that weighs more than 30 pounds, although State Veterinarian Heather L. Hirst said domesticated exotics such as llamas and alpacas are considered livestock and will not be affected.

Some exotic mammals commonly kept as pets are exempt from the new rules, including chinchillas, gerbils, guinea pigs and hamsters. Reptiles that are exempt include bearded dragons, chameleons and iguanas.

Although most snakes are covered by the regulations, some are singled out for special treatment.

People will be able to get permits for so-called "giant" snakes -- anacondas, pythons and boa constrictors whose average adult body length is longer than 5 feet -- but only those with zoo permits will be allowed to breed them.

However, Hirst said, the breeding restriction will not affect ball pythons, a popular pet that can grow to about 6 feet.

"We did not want to exclude people from breeding ball pythons, because it is our belief that they are good pets and do not generally threaten animals or humans," Hirst said in a written response to a list of questions from The News Journal.

The regulations were crafted after a series of public hearings and rewrites that generated considerable comment -- and criticism -- in the exotic-pets community.

Chris Kiker, who owned the now-shuttered East Coast Exotics in Rehoboth Beach, testified at a hearing in February that the selective breeding of snakes for color patterns "is a major, major thing" among hobbyists.

"If you stop the breeding, then you open up the doors for the need to acquire animals that are wild-caught, and basically you are taking a step backwards," he said, according to a transcript of the hearing.
In an interview this week, Kiker, who has since left the business, said it is "definitely more preferable to regulate than to ban, which is slowly the direction they want to take."

Snake rescuer Rogers said there's not much to be gained by regulating responsible owners: It's the irresponsible ones who buy snakes and then turn them loose when the reptiles grow too large or too expensive to keep.

Rogers owns a corn snake, a black rat snake, 14 ball pythons, a Kenyan sand boa and a Colombian red tail boa that he says is sweet-tempered despite its impressive length. (Rogers says the snake has never held still long enough for him to measure it.)

"She's as docile as you can be unless you're a rat or a rabbit, and then you're dinner," said Rogers, who rescued the boa from beneath a porch at Mariners Cove near Millsboro.

Just because the state will grant a permit for a snake or other exotic animal doesn't mean it's OK to get one. Counties and municipalities can have their own ordinances regarding pets, and they can be stricter than the state regulations.

In New Castle County, for instance, it's illegal to own an exotic animal on any parcel of land that's less than one acre and is in a residential district. That includes llamas, which the state doesn't consider exotic.

In Kent County, it's illegal for most individuals to possess what is termed a "dangerous animal." According to the county code, dangerous animals "are incapable of adapting to human companionship and their possession by individuals as pets has proven to be a menace to emergency personnel, including firemen, police officers and utility workers, as well as the general public."

The Sussex County code contains no references to exotic animals.

The new state regulations spell out in detail the kind of enclosures needed for exotics, as well as how they must be transported.

In addition, the regulations will require vendors to ensure that purchasers have a license before they sell an exotic animal, and all sellers of reptiles must advise buyers in writing that most reptiles carry salmonella bacteria.
-----
www.BetterBoa.com

9.7 BCIs
4.5 Corn snakes

Bill
Sorry to hear the bad news, its sad when you have a passion for something and it gets taken away from you. Good luck.
-----
Richard Ceniceros

Bill, I am very sorry to hear this news..I hope everything works out for you and your boas...Man that REALLY does suck..
-----
Kevin Stewart
boldboas.com

Bill,i am so sorry to hear the news, you have some of the nicest boa morphs in the business, you will surely be missed, what a loss for the hobby, best of luck in what ever you decide to do in the future.
Greg c

Thanks everyone. I greatly appreciate all of the kind words and support. I hope my situation is due to the fact that I am from a small state and that the rest of you will not face the same situation. I hope you all are able to keep your animals for decades to come and look forward to seeing what you produce.

Bill

So this might end up being bad for me also. Doesn't get any smaller than Rhode Island...I guess if they can't get you on a federal level,they will get you at the state level.

I'm really sorry to hear about your misfortunate life changing event... That has to be very depressing knowing that all your hard work is going to be taken from you! The bad thing about this whole mess is, the domino affect in which other states are sure to follow! All or most of us are probably in for a rude awakening....soon!...who knows?

I know it will be very devastating to me if the state of Indiana follows this crap, as I have invested most of my retirement money in hopes of doing this full time....eventually! That idea has been slowly and depressingly changing for the worse! Once something like this takes affect and the motion has started, it's hard to stop. Unless something short of a miracle happens, that's "of course" in our favor!

I live about 10 minutes from St. Joseph County, which includes SouthBend, Mishawaka, Granger and a few other small cities. About 13 or 14 years a go they passed a similar law making it illegal to sell, keep or breed any constricting or constrictor snakes. This includes King Snakes, Milk Snakes, all Boas & Pythons, they even included all Monitor Lizards. You can obtain a permit, but, like your state you have to obtain a permit for each animal at a rate of $100 per animal per year...!

This law was put into affect because to many irresponsible people were obtaining large Pythons, only to later find out the hard way they couldn't afford to house or feed them. This problem led to the humane society and zoo's being flooded with abandoned Pythons and other large exotic reptiles! To solve this problem, St Joseph County passed a law very similar to your state! Most of my work is in St.Joseph/SouthBend, not being able to live there cost me a lot of time in driving to & from work plus the added expense of gas to get there.

I can understand the frustrations and feelings you must be going through Bill! The sad thing is, it's going to affect
"us all soon" if we don't take really aggressive steps!

Sincerely,
Chaz Neely