Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was asked a question that I really did not know the answer to so I thought I would post it here to see who does....

Are the White Sided and Whitewalled traits found in many colubrids a form of leucism? In't a pie bald BP partially leucistic?

I think the whitewalled Holbrooki will eventually become solid white as seen with the reduction in pattern with every generation of line breeding......So, if a white holbrooki with normal colored eyes is eventually hatched....Is it leucistic?

I bring this up too because of the differences in looks between the wild collected Whitewalled Holbrooki and what we have in the hobby now as a result of some line breeding.....

Thanks in advance for your replies....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Is this question being avoided on purpose?........LOL
Does anyone have ANY input?

Thanks.......I guess.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Whatever the question was it made me hungry for a whitesided scaless piebald leucistic ratsnake.

Yum!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Gross.....
You foreigners......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

HELLO, I DON'T KNOW THE FREAKIN' ANSWER SO I'M SHUTTING UP, LOL! STOP YELLIN'!
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Todd Hughes

>>HELLO, I DON'T KNOW THE FREAKIN' ANSWER SO I'M SHUTTING UP, LOL! STOP YELLIN'!

Neither do I.......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

my opinion is piebald, leucistic, whiteside are differant individual reccesive mutations but maybe they are all one in the same just being expressed differantly, to my knowledge there has been no double homozygot produced within those particular mutations, more breedings are needed to know for sure.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thanks Thomas...
Do you think the White Sided / WhiteWalled trait is a pattern mutation rather than a pigment mutation like leucism or pied?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

i think whiteside is a pigment mutation. and has been found to occur in ALOT of snakes. the lack of color and pattern, like in leucism and pied at least says to me its pigment NOT pattern related. i beleive the reduced whitesides(baldys) are just refining that mutation to our liking. i doubt a completely patternless(leucistic) will emerge from them but stranger things have happened i suppose.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hello all, I had something similar happen in a turtle (Phrynops hilari) , at hatching, all the marginal scutes (the rim) where white, then over the years some pigment did creep in. I believe one red ear slider morph might be originated the same way.

Someone told me (I cant recall the name now) that during growth within the egg, the pigments follow the nervous system development and that is why the black pigment begins on the back in snakes and works its way down the sides. Some defect makes it stop on its way.
That would be why whitesides and pieds always have black eyes (which are part of the nervous system), the pigment is there right from the early stages

David

>>Someone told me (I cant recall the name now) that during growth within the egg, the pigments follow the nervous system development and that is why the black pigment begins on the back in snakes and works its way down the sides. Some defect makes it stop on its way.
>>That would be why whitesides and pieds always have black eyes (which are part of the nervous system), the pigment is there right from the early stages

WOW....That is interesting David....
WhiteWall may be a pigment mutation due a nervous system 'defect' not allowing the melanin to develop partially......

Thanks for chiming in....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

My pleasure, will be even better when I remember the name of the guy who gave me this info!

David

Hey John, here's the explanation i came up with for the White-sided mutation when i was researching the different Floridana Morphs.

“White- Sided”

The White-sided mutation seems to be a type of Leucism, rather partial Leucism similar to what occures with Pied/ Piebald specimen, but with more “structure” than the typical Piebald mutation. In the “White-sided” mutation, Leucism is “localized” along the sides and abdominal regions of a specimen; only affecting those areas.

*Leucism is a mutation that is characteristed by the reduction of ALL pigmentation. This results in indviduals that are completely white. While Leucism may seem similar to Amelanism, what sets they apart is the fact that Leucitic individuals have dark colored eyes. Pigment cells reasonsible for eye coloration are from an “independent developmental origin” (unlike other pigment cells) and are not affected by Leucism

Additionally, if you look closely at the eyes of white-sided snakes they are not "normal" coloration, they have dark irises and red pupils.

Axan-WS Floridana

~Z

I thought whitesided or whitewalled definitely fit the definition of partially leucistic......
And I did not know they had red irises...I have to check my whitewall male when I get home to see if he has the same red iris.....

Thanks Zenny....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>*Leucism is a mutation that is characteristed by the reduction of ALL pigmentation. This results in indviduals that are completely white. While Leucism may seem similar to Amelanism, what sets they apart is the fact that Leucitic individuals have dark colored eyes. Pigment cells reasonsible for eye coloration are from an “independent developmental origin” (unlike other pigment cells) and are not affected by Leucism

And...I don't think leucism is similar to amelanism since amelanism is the absence of melanin only....Leucism is the absence of all pigments.....
Why is it that white side Floridana have some pattern on the sides and whitewalls Holbrooki are completely absent of pattern on the sides, replaced by white.......The whitewalled Holbrooki is a much better looking morph in my opinion......

Thanks again Zenny....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John, the WS gene is expressed in the same way but there are obviously at least 2 different genes working there resulting in what looks incomplete. If you breed away the the 2nd one it doesnt mean it doesnt exist, just that the expression is reduced, it will always be WS not Leucistic. I think breeding for an all white snake in this instance is counter productive as its only along the stripe that any other genes(example:bred to Albino)will be expressed. And as far as the eyes go, when they hatch they kinda have the same look as a leucy...for what its worth.