Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Last year I had to pull my Knoblochi out of brumation in mid Jan. due to an error on my part that gave them URI's. ( I had no more room in my storage are so they were placed into my well room with a couple of other snakes and got to cold and the room was too wet-----never again will snakes go into that room and the now I have more room in my DRY storage area that stays around 47-50) They started feeding as soon as they warmed up and bred way early as well. They were placed into my snake room where the lights are on a timer. I was just curious to see if anyone has had success with breeding any other montane species early through temp and light manipulation.

>>Last year I had to pull my Knoblochi out of brumation in mid Jan. due to an error on my part that gave them URI's. ( I had no more room in my storage are so they were placed into my well room with a couple of other snakes and got to cold and the room was too wet-----never again will snakes go into that room and the now I have more room in my DRY storage area that stays around 47-50) They started feeding as soon as they warmed up and bred way early as well. They were placed into my snake room where the lights are on a timer. I was just curious to see if anyone has had success with breeding any other montane species early through temp and light manipulation.

When did you begin your brumation with these Joe?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hey John, I had to go pull the records for those two knoblochi. They started brumation on 11-25-08. She laid seven eggs, four of which went bad. I seperated one of the remaining three and incubated that egg at lower temps to see what kind of difference the temps would make in the babies coloration. Well, that egg went a LONG time and swelled to the point where it split open. The baby was still alive but was thin and there was a ton of yolk still left. It died a while later. The other two hatched healthy and HUGE. (11-12 inches long). Stress and the uri probably played a factor in the low hatch rate but I am not sure. She laid her eggs in April.

>>Hey John, I had to go pull the records for those two knoblochi. They started brumation on 11-25-08. She laid seven eggs, four of which went bad. I seperated one of the remaining three and incubated that egg at lower temps to see what kind of difference the temps would make in the babies coloration. Well, that egg went a LONG time and swelled to the point where it split open. The baby was still alive but was thin and there was a ton of yolk still left. It died a while later. The other two hatched healthy and HUGE. (11-12 inches long). Stress and the uri probably played a factor in the low hatch rate but I am not sure. She laid her eggs in April.

WOW....Offspring created with only 7 weeks of brumation for a montane king......
Alot of folks on here think that all kingsnakes will breed successfully and produce viable eggs without a brumation, but I am a firm believer that Mexicana, Zonata, Alterna & Pyromelena NEED a brumation of some sort to reproduce successfully. Maybe next year I will pull a pair or two out of brumation early and see if they will reproduce.....I don't think I will this year....LOL

I've had corns, ratsnakes and some getula lay good eggs that hatched after a short brumation (4 to 6 weeks) at rather higher than normal brumation temps (65F), but never any Montane species mentioned above.....

Have you ever thought about doing it again? Or are you thinking about it now?......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

HAHA. You got me!! I am thinking of trying it again and this time no uri's are involved. The short time they had in brumation was VERY cold though and this might have helped. Not sure if I want to try it with all of my mt. kings but I am tempted to try the knoblochi again. Hell, they did it last year and were sick!! Last year was my first year with those snakes and I think they very well might have had a mild case of URI prior to brumation. I got them at a show and they both sneezed every now and then but I thought maybe the substrate was causing it. They never open mouthed breathed and tongue flicked fine. I only got them two weeks prior to brumation though. They were also no where near as well fed as they are now. Might be interesting.

>>HAHA. You got me!! I am thinking of trying it again and this time no uri's are involved. The short time they had in brumation was VERY cold though and this might have helped. Not sure if I want to try it with all of my mt. kings but I am tempted to try the knoblochi again. Hell, they did it last year and were sick!! Last year was my first year with those snakes and I think they very well might have had a mild case of URI prior to brumation. I got them at a show and they both sneezed every now and then but I thought maybe the substrate was causing it. They never open mouthed breathed and tongue flicked fine. I only got them two weeks prior to brumation though. They were also no where near as well fed as they are now. Might be interesting.

Would be an interesting experiment.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

PLease do not take this to hard but hibernation is not needed. I am one of the first to produce montane kings, of many types, and few world firsts. Yet I did not need to brumate or hibernate.

I keep saying this yet few if anyone gets what snakes actually do. Its not about hibernation, not in the least. Its about energy conservation. All snakes use cool temps normally, then seek heat when needed.

Wild montanes seek temps in the fifties and sixties, normally all times of the year. Of course seek more heat when needed, they use it and quickly return to a base cool temp.

In their world, they get summered if you will. hahahahahahahaha. Summered is when the temps are too warm to conserve energy and they must feed heavily just to maintain energy levels. During these conditions, they cannot reproduce, not in nature or in captivity.

In captivity folks somehow think they require ONE set temp. Which is not what they do. Keepers pick a horrible AVERAGE temp and fine tune it to degrees of a degree. Like 82.4564F hahahahahahahaha

The reality is, kingsnakes pick temps from the forties to about 100F. And everywhere inbetween. They do so by need. A few degrees more or less is meaningless. They will just move sooner or later to adjust.

For instance, large prey items, they choose hotter temps for short periods and then move to cooler temps. Smaller prey items they will start with cooler temps then the large prey items.

When females cycle, they require elevated temps for very short period of time. etc etc, this includes the building of the immune system, shedding, and growth. Growth occurs at a range of temps, but is accelerated at higher temps.

Our misconception is, we think if they stick to one temp, that is bask all the time. Thats the right temp. Which could not be farther from the truth. Their design is to acquire heat to DO something, and acquire it quickly, then do the something. To bask is dangerous. If they are out, they need to be at fully operating temps. And they need them quickly. So the shortest time sped basking is the optimum. Not the longest.

I was very lucky, when I started breeding kings, there was no protocal or recipe. It simply wasn't done. Which means, I was not prejudiced by anything other then the results from the snakes.

I tested constant temps and constant lite. I also tested hibernation.

That is, I kept kings(getula) at between 82F and 85F and constant lite and bred them for decades, their cycled for the first clutch, every 11 months and ended up producing eggs in every month of the year. They also multiclutched, which was unheard of at the time.

I then tested this on montanes and bred many species successfully.
Then I learned if you offerred a range of temps, you the keeper did not have to make important decisions. Like the things you question now. As it is, you create conditions where you become the fall guy, which is any business is WRONG. All you have to do is offer a range of temps and the snakes will breed, feed, grow, etc, all on their own accord. Which is something we negleck. We think WE have to control them. How weird is that?

I have many many world first breedings of several types of reptiles. Some folks ask me, how does it feel to do that. My normal responce is, relieved. The reason is, these animals have be breeding, hatching, growing, etc etc etc since before man was man. ALL ON THEIR OWN and under many different conditions. We do tend to be a hinderance to them. In otherwords, they do not need us. They are fully capable to take care of themselves. All we have to do is offer some very very very basic conditions to allow them to be KINGSNAKES(insert any type reptile here) Allow them to do what they "know" how to do.

The arguement about hibernation and montane kings is kinda silly as montane kings only occur in warmers areas of our country. And of course all thru mexico. Of course your going to say, they occur at elevation. Hmmmmmmm well, I have been part of a longterm montane reptile study(20 years) and we find montane snakes active all year around. The three worse months(actual data) for outside activity is, Jan, may and june. During most winters, we find far more out in the winter then during the summer. Animals per man/days. During many winter days, I can find them several times faster then my partner/s can process them. And that makes him/them mad. hahahahahahahahaha.

Back to the point. The recipe of hibernation, is only a recipe, its not about the animals, its mainly for keepers who do not understand the animals and have to follow something in fear of failure.(blunt huh?)

Simple exceptions us longterm keepers have seen. Keeping females out of hibernation because of ill healt. Hmmmmmmm if they regain their health, they reproduce anyway, and often on the same day they laid when hibernated. Yes, I also hibernated snakes too. In fact, I was amongst the leaders in that. The best thing about hibernating snakes is, you can take a break from them. Again, that is about us, not the snakes.

In reality, hibernation and brumate(in nature) are survival behaviors to escape very adverse conditions. Its not about reproduction. In areas where conditions do not force hibernation or brumation, they do not. Which is the vast majority of the areas snakes occur in, 99% of all reptile species are equatorial.

of course, your allowed to do whatever you want, I only hope you could consider(to think about) what the snakes really do. Which is use cool when they want and heat when they want. All you have to do is figure out how to give them those so they will use it. They do have very specific ways to seek these things, and out in the open is normally their last choice. Cheers

Very informative post Frank.....
Could you show me your set up that would have such a cold and hot temperature ranges?

I brumate my montane kings for the simple fact that it works....

I've bred ratsnakes, cornsnakes and getula with no brumation....
When I tried this with Mexicana it has never worked......It is certainly my fault, but I would love to see one of these setups you keep boasting about over the last years.....
Thanks,
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

.................'cause you're gonna be holdin' your breath for a loooooong time on this one. LOL.
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www.freewebs.com/jerrykruse

Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Frank, I do not in any way doubt you have done this and I think it is very impressive. I am trying different things and seeing what happens myself. Interesting note, and slightly off the subject, but today I was outside and the temp was 30 degrees F. My wife's cat came over to get a "petting" and he felt VERY warm. He had been sunning. I went inside and got my temp gun and began shooting things. The pavers on my front porch(in the shade) were 29.5 degrees F. The car hood (in the sun) was 81 F !!!! The pavers that were in the sun were over 70 F. I was very shocked at this and it goes to show that even though the ambient temps can be very low, snakes can still get VERY warm in the sun. I will be taking my temp gun to the mountains of CA and taking lots of readings, that is for sure. Oh, and the cat was 78 F !! LOL.

There you go, heat guns are the best tool to come along in a very long time.

Working with reptiles in the field, the "normal" OLD method was quick read mercury thermometers. It took forever to take temps and they were air temps mostly. With heat guns, you actually take surface temps which reflect mass temps. WHICH IS WHAT REPTILES DO. they do not care about air temps.

With heat guns you can take thousands of temps quickly.

I do understand your question, and the answer is yes, you can breed snakes at any month of the year. And I have. In fact in the old days, there was a tendency to race to get babies to the first shows of the year. Or just a race, hahahahahahahaha. People like to race and thats all it takes.

In order to manipulate times they cycle, all you have to do is shut them down with cool temps, then warm them up. As long as you provide cool areas after warming them up, you will be alright. If you warm them up without cool areas, you will receive infertile eggs, but there still are eggs, hahahahahahaha.

The key to that is, MALES. if you shut down males, you then have to restart them. The problem is, they do not have a READY lite, they will copulate even if they do not have viable sperm. Our trick was, do not cool the males and then they are ready all the time. Remember, males also go infertile if they are exposed to to much or steady heat. So they need cool all the time.

Which is the key to what I am trying to say,Kruse and John both keep missing the point. I clearly stated, that colubrids REQUIRE cool all the time.

Again, in our field work, we commonly find snakes active with IBT's from the forties up. 40'sF that is clearly below what most hibernated their snakes at. So were these snakes crawling around or crossing roads while they were hibernating. Or is our understanding of hibernating clearly off base? This also goes for pythons and boas. While many keepers of those hibernate those at temps around 65F, I have found five species of pythons and three species of boas, crossing roads(crawling and active) between fifty and sixty F. Some species like carpets and more specifically Tableland carpets clearly chose temps under 75F to move.(cross roads)

So yes, I do have an odd prespective of snakes and hibernation.

I think people are clearly anthropromorphic about this. This base their thoughts solely on above the ground air temps and not the temps of the animals and the places they actually live(not on the surface or on the road)

A few years ago, I reported the temps in the field, using both a quick read and a heat gun. It was late december, and a very successful day. The highs that day were 42F(air temps) The lows were in the low teens. The hottest temps(consistant related to situation, that is, repeatable) taken with the heat gun was 128F, the areas the snakes were using was around 100F give or take a few. These areas were normally ten to twenty feet across. The snakes were active and often working the edges where the temps were in the seventies. They then returned to the middles. The middles often contained multiple sheds. This day, is a "normal" winter day for us. We are @ 6000 to 6500 feet in elevation. These areas also receive snow. On this day, there was some snow in the shady areas. Of course, the snakes avoided the shady areas. Hmmmmmm they aren't stupid. hahahahahahahahahaha.

In our case here, folks think of the pile of snow when they think of winter. They do not think of the pavers. My very simple recomendation is, flip the pavers.

Another thought for you. Clearly the pavers(my bet is, there are hotter places around there) gather heat from the angle of the sun. What happens to that heat? Also what would happen if those pavers were angles to the sun, you know, like they do with solar collectors? Cheers

>> Which is the key to what I am trying to say,Kruse and John both keep missing the point. I clearly stated, that colubrids REQUIRE cool all the time.

I HAVE NOT missed your point at all Frank....
Colubrids require much more than cool all the time....

I was just wondering how to provide 50F temps and 90F temps in the middle of our South Texas Summer.....
I wanted to see an example of how you achieve this.....

I use Applegate enclosures which give my snakes many options including humidity, moisture, wet, damp, cool, hot, warm, dark, dry, light and combinations of these options........
I still cannot think of a way to achieve such cool temps ALL the time that you mention other than the room temp of 70F and a hot side of 90F which is what I do.......

Here's MY way....Now show me yours....Both seem to work so no one right nor wrong.....

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John, think of your brumation "room" temps expanded exponentially. And he gave you the answer for heat with the pavers and solar panels. This is HIS way, which works, find YOUR way and be happy. After all, you've been successful in the past. He's not ready to reveal to the masses his way with pics of his setups, but he has revealed it in words,several times, but he likes to make you think. Jerry got it and started to experiment but I think he dropped it? Remember John, we don't have the luxury of rock here, so I am using what our snakes do here, deep fissures for cool and moist, layers for warmth, your setup has the deep cool moist, think about that light you have and layers...sometimes I find a snake on the top of the pile, sometimes several layers below, sometimes somewhere in between, I only see them for one fraction of the whole time, so they must be.....?

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Todd Hughes

>>John, think of your brumation "room" temps expanded exponentially. And he gave you the answer for heat with the pavers and solar panels. This is HIS way, which works, find YOUR way and be happy. After all, you've been successful in the past. He's not ready to reveal to the masses his way with pics of his setups, but he has revealed it in words,several times, but he likes to make you think. Jerry got it and started to experiment but I think he dropped it? Remember John, we don't have the luxury of rock here, so I am using what our snakes do here, deep fissures for cool and moist, layers for warmth, your setup has the deep cool moist, think about that light you have and layers...sometimes I find a snake on the top of the pile, sometimes several layers below, sometimes somewhere in between, I only see them for one fraction of the whole time, so they must be.....?

First thing.....I AM HAPPY.....lol

I know all this to be true Todd....And I have read all of Frank's posts over the years he has been on this forum, but I think I am achieving the same goal my way.....Which is certainly different than most......

I don't want Frank to reveal to the masses.....I just want to know how to achieve such a temperature gradient in the middle of our South Texas summers.......I understand layers, moisture and humidity....Maybe I need to start shooting temps in all these layers.....Maybe there's some cool spots I am not aware of.....

I wish you luck with all your projects this year Todd....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>John, think of your brumation "room" temps expanded exponentially. And he gave you the answer for heat with the pavers and solar panels. This is HIS way, which works, find YOUR way and be happy. After all, you've been successful in the past. He's not ready to reveal to the masses his way with pics of his setups, but he has revealed it in words,several times, but he likes to make you think. Jerry got it and started to experiment but I think he dropped it? Remember John, we don't have the luxury of rock here, so I am using what our snakes do here, deep fissures for cool and moist, layers for warmth, your setup has the deep cool moist, think about that light you have and layers...sometimes I find a snake on the top of the pile, sometimes several layers below, sometimes somewhere in between, I only see them for one fraction of the whole time, so they must be.....?
>>

BTW....That's a cool picture I took when your Calhoun Holbrooki were hatching....LOL
When was that? 2004?
>>
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>>Todd Hughes
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

basically, what I understand is that not everyone wants to commit to providing all that is possible, concerning temps, humidity, light and dark, me included, but I understand the process Frank is explaining. John, take a flat rock, say a foot in width, and lean it against the side of the cage where the light is. Take your temp gun and monitor the temp through the day. Then keep tilting that rock ever so slightly, measure your temps both on the rock and under the rock and see if you get different readings. Somewhere on that light, it puts out a higher end, somewhere on the rock, it is thinner or thicker, also giving different temps. Think about Frank's stacks, I used rock in my example 'cause everyone seems to be stuck on rocks, but wood works, hell newspaper works. He's got a very good light shining down on the stack, multiple layers, but his BASE TEMP is cool and at the bottom is probably close to the base temp. Don't be fooled, he has a hard time cooling his room in the Arizona summer too, to achieve that cool temp, but it can be done. If you really want to do this right, you'd have to be able to afford it, out in nature, it doesn't cost us a dime, but in our rooms, lol, may be very cost prohibitive.
Ever made any pottery? I have, I noticed that a mug I made kept my beer so damned cold it was unbelievable! Take a thick ceramic bowl and put water in it, in the lowest chamber of your Applegate enclosure as far away from the heat source as you can, measure the temps of the water and the bowl. The water will hold the temps cooler, as well as the immediate surrounding area.
Central a'c would be best I imagine, both you and I know why window units suck.
Put the deep stone (cool) and the high slant flat rock(s) (layers) to the test, see if you don't get higher and consistently cooler temps...oh yeah, a HUGE cage doesn't hurt either, lol! I can do this with a 55 turned upright, but for me, and most people here, this is not worth "their time" or money. Plus, most people have a need to see their snakes all the time, snakes don't want to be seen and spend 99? of their time and energy doing so. We are stuck in shoebox, small cage mode trying to get 110 on one end and 50 on the other, what each of us does, and finds to work for us, is what each of us needs to do. So if having a 3' snake in a 3'X1'X1' cage works for you, do that. And be happy, or experiment and see other ways, most of us are afraid to try different things, because we fear losing the snake, but to find what works, sometimes you lose a snake or two, or ten, or fifty. I'm sure Frank has earned the handle pioneer not just because he did some firsts. There were a few that he lost during the process, but to the betterment of the whole. I know I've lost more than a few trying to do some different things, but I have hatched waaay more than I have lost. Safe keeping is fine, but if you want to learn more, you gotta push the envelope, and Frank has about pushed that envelope as far as it will go. It is up to the people here to open a new envelope and push that one. If what you're doing works, be happy, if you want more, expand. there are a few people working on some more cutting edge technologies, but they will come out with it when they want, or not.
If you want a cold herp room, when you expand the room John, go down! LOL!
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Todd Hughes

Understood again....
I'll shoot you an email tonight when I take a bunch of temperature readings.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Sorry, photo by John Lassiter, of holbrooki/splendida (kingsnake) intergrade Calhoun county, Texas eggs found by Todd Hughes that were incubated by John Lassiter and raised by Todd Hughes that will be bred to unrelated locality same found by Todd Hughes, lol!
Geez!
I know you have read those, I was putting a south Texas spin on it for you, what is our soil made of? What heats up faster than rock, also loses heat faster? Our getula are found both in clay and sand, no rock. Our habitat isn't pretty, is way more humid and we keep our snakes on aspen...hmmm. Deep layer of loose soil, some heat sinks, cold sinks, a cold room, a hot spot a humid hide. Not easy to do with the way we normally keep. Our enclosures would not be pretty if as close to nature as we could possibly get them. We want them simple, because we want simple to maintain. And for ease of breeding. Frank is more interested in the activities of the animals, the breedings were a bonus, although I know he was in it for that as well. I have double clutched the splendidas and the Mexican bairdi, I am pretty sure last season's wild caught gravid female was her second clutch, can't prove it but I suspect it from the late lay/hatch and size of clutch. So now I'm looking to second clutch the holbrooki, and I did get a second clutch out of Mildred, but didn't get Walt in to fertilize or didn't support her enough for good eggs. We will see what happens with the gophers, hogs and thayeri I have this year, I know all the rats can and will.

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Todd Hughes

Thanks Todd.......lol.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hi Todd, its not that I am holding anything back. Its simply a concept that can be applied to any cage or cage type. Its not about the cages. Its about how the keeper thinks. Then how the keeper applies that.

To show a pic is only offering one more thing to copy, another recipe if you will. Its the concept thats important. In this case the person said, yea but I live in texas, hahahahaha he could of said, I live in alaska, it really does not matter. The point is, you support(supply) a set of conditions, how you do that depends on your CURRENT conditions and abilities.

What is funny to me is, folks want to make it complicated and hard to do. Which is weird, because its much much simplier and easy to do. Once you do it. You will find that most types of reptiles will be highly successful in same setup.

Also odd to me is the lack of understanding about these animals. You have been in the field a lot. Have you ever seen a place with snakes, that was always 83.56 in the summer or 55F in the winter?????? No, it doesn't work like that. The places snakes live are always hotter, way hotter, and colder then the actual requirements of the snakes. They then seek the places that offer the temps they need at the time. That IS WHAT THEY DO.

I have a dang question, hahahahaha, when you find snakes around AC you often find lizards. How come if you put lizards in your snake cages they DIE. hahahahahahahahaha They both live together in nature. This is a good question.

The cool part about different species is HOW THEY DO IT(fullfill their needs). ALso odd to me is this locality type thing. Many here appreicate locality specific snakes. They understand each locality is different to a point. I wonder if they ever think about why they are different??????????????????

Hmmmmmmmmmmm got me. But then, a lot of things get me. hahahahahahahahahahaha

Speaking of what bothers me. You know I have been around a very long time. It bothers me that people know/do/practice/test less with their animals now then they knew/did 35 years ago. If I was a present day keeper, I would be very ashamed of myself. hahahahahahahahahaha.

For instance those drawer cages. I used those before I met Dave May. Cheers

>>>ALso odd to me is this locality type thing. Many here appreicate locality specific snakes. They understand each locality is different to a point. I wonder if they ever think about why they are different??????????????????

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!very well put. hopefully it causes some to actually THINK!

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

First, do not get so defensive. As of now, I do not keep enough colubrids to have a set up.

First a little history, drawer cages was first used by me. Long before Applegate bred any snakes. That setup you have was first used by Steve Osborne. Only he made is out of birch. Again, long before Applegate used this type setup.

The actual second person to make drawer cages was that fella in Seattle. He owned a petshop and religiously hunted west texas(@ high speed) I cannot remember his name. He was also into explosives and was always blowing things up. He had a vaccum formed cage he tried to market with drawers. The cage was too small. If he would have done it right, he could have been vision cages, hahahahahahahahaha.

About you and where you live. First, why does everything have to be in complete control? That has nothing to do with hibernating or the concept behind it. Its more about providing a heat source in the cooler months then a cool source in the hotter months.

But if YOU wanted, they have these things they call air conditioners, they kinda make cold air. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. You know, you threw the ball strait down the pipe, I had to hit it. The reality is, you could control the temps your around, all of us here come from different places with different conditions. Yet, the animals are the same animals. Its our job to provide for them. Not their job to change for us.

I am in Tucson and we have HEAT. Its my choice to cool their rooms in the summer. Or not. Same for you. What you do is entirely up to you. and only you have YOUR reasons. Again, most of OUR reasons, have nothing to do with the snakes.

ALso, it appears you have good success, if you have no reason to change that, DON'T. But if you have marginal or want better success, then there are many ways to do so. If you want snakes to reproduce successfully at under two years, and multiclutch for decades and grow large and strong and not become fat, then there are ways to accomplish that. If you want your neonates to hatch out strong and eat pinks right off, then there are ways for that too.

Thats the great part of this forum, its EASY to have a minimum level of success with colubrids, after all kids can and do breed them. All you have to do is follow a recipe. But sir, that is not the end or limit of what can be done. Or is it what the snakes actually are designed to do.

Now, lets look at people. Your setup is neat and organized, which is a people trait. Do these snakes actually live like that? is their mirco habitat neat and organized?

Please, do not take offense but, if you flipped your cages upside down it would be better. They actually live in a network of underground tunnels and holes(your drawers) and only use a small part of the above ground. Rarely is ever completely exposing themselves. So their design would be your people design only upside down.

So we build cages for us, so what! admitt it and move on. As an exhibit builder, exhibit design is always about people. 95% or more about people, 5% or less about the animal. Even the most natualistic cages.

About providing what they need, it can be done in any old cage or box or sweaterbox, its simple, keep the box in a cool place and provide a small about of heat. Once it gets too hot(summer) forget about breeding them and feed the crap out of them. That also occurs in nature. Why do you think reptiles produce in spring? Why not during the hot summer? Dang subocs they do both, hahahahahahahaha oh way, they reproduce spring and fall, hahahahahahahahaha. PLease laugh

More people, some folks cannot think about the principle, and apply that to many situations. Those folks follow recipes. Other folks, can apply principles to varying situations. Again so what, its not wrong or right. or better or worse. But don't get mad at me if all you understand is messing with the cart in a horse race.

Consider, a cage is a box, end of friggin story. The box can house nothing or many things. It can house support. IT could be minimul or maximum. After all its a box and you fill it.

Anyway, its simple, cool base, added heat. Then watch them do what they do. As opposed to following a sticking recipe and only seeing what you allow to occur. Except if that makes u happy. if it does, then go for it.

I get the feeling exceptional colors and odd morphs are popular because people do not care about what the snakes DO, they only care about what they ARE. LIke collecting stamps. Stamps are in a drawer. You open the drawer to show off your stamps. The quality of your collection is based on your rare stamps, not the mail the stamps were placed on. hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Well these snakes have @ least those two areas and more. They represent something to collect and they have a life of their own and what they share with us. I hope I am wrong but often times at places like this, its more about what we do to them. Cheers

Actually Frank I wasn't being defensive...sorry if you read it that way.....I just don't think I have missed your points....Over the years you have been posting on this forum I have really tried absorb and apply alot of what you have explained.....

Your ploy to get me/us to think IS working well I might add....LOL

And I really enjoyed reading that reply...
I have seen my greatest success this past year concerning Mexicana feeding response....I am a firm believer that my "new" (old to you) set up is the reason for this.....My methods are a little different than the cookie cutter method everyone else lives by......I am really enjoying learning new husbandry and techniques.....

BTW...I do use an air conditioner....hahahaha

Thanks for your input Frank.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Very good post Frank. I have been thinking of putting in a window air conditioner this year so I can keep the gradients I achieve in the winter all year long. Amazing how often they use the 55 side, and normaly when I see them there they want food.

I wish I could show you what is going on in my room tonight. I've moved all my snakes in the computer room with me, a cold front has blown in and it is 34 degrees outside at 9:16 p.m. tonight. Under the desk where I sit I have a small space heater, for me. Inside the far end of the room the thermometer says 65 degrees, the probe is about 5 feet off the floor monioring the top cage with my pair of Mexican bairdi in it. They are on the north wall next to a sliding glass door. I'm pretty sure the lower cages are cooler, but that's not the point, I have several species of North American snakes, most of them southwestern, but bulls, gophers, kings, rats, longnose, patchnose, hognose, garters, you get the idea. They are pissed at me for allowing it to be so cold in here, when just a week ago it was in the 80's, lol! As I look around the room, almost all of the adults are pressing their bodies up to the corners closest to me, they can feel the heat. Even my pissy gopher male who hates me is not under his hide as usual but shoving his hind end up towards me for warmth, you'd hafta know this guy to understand! The babies are all snuggled down in their hides, whereas normally they would be out cruising at this time. As tonight progresses and I sit here, I will eventually turn off the heater, and the temps will continue to drop, but the adults will still be pressed up against the cage closest to me. When I come here in the morning, it will be the same scene, until it warms up late morning or afternoon, where they will retreat for a while back to their normal positions. I still do get the biggest kick out of watching what they do and when they do it. I hope to God I never fully figure them out! I mean, I know why they are doing this, same reason I am. But to watch a supposed "dumb" animal do things with a purpose is always very cool and interesting to me.
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Todd Hughes

here's a few shots, from my chair at the computer, directly behind me is a set of 28 qt. sterlites and a 20 gallon on top, from the bottom is the female gopher in deep shed, she's been here for days. Above her is an adult male het for whitewall speckled king catching some heat, my locality female splendida that looks like an eastern never comes out from under her hide except to eat, she is true to form. If I spin left I see a stack of rubbermaid and sterlite 31-32 qt. tubs with pines gophers and bulls, see the mean Daddy gopher in the top cage? He never comes out from under the hide except to shed, which he apparently just did, but here he is obviously warming up, and two cages below is one of his daughters born this year, doing the same. In between is a female Alice, Texas bullsnake, she ain't comin' out, I'm seeing a pattern...last pic shows another bank of 32 qt. sterlites with a 20 gallon on top. You can't see the bottom two cages but in them are a locality male Southwestern striped rat, he's not out, he's dug in, above him, a big male thayeri, in the back of the tub away from the heat but not under his hide, top tub is a big male hypo corn, soaking it up in front, and in the top 20 gallon is an adult female w.c. Langtry alterna, body always under the hide bowl, head and neck extended to the heat. All these snakes are awake and sharp, they respond to my movements around the room. I know it's not cold in here yet, but it will be, and they will still be up tonight. I keep mostly nocturnal stuff with a few diurnal species thrown in, and I am a bit of a nightowl, so I get to see and hear them all night when they are active, and even as chilly as it is now, they are what I call surface active.

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Todd Hughes

34 HA its 20 in Htown... OUCH!!!
tonite my brumation room is 38-40ish... no activity observed... they have been dark sense dec.1.
ahh relaxing... yeah its about me...
getting close to "the busy time" heres to a good year

,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

that'd be the difference in a semi-tropical zone and a temperate zone. I'm just experimenting, we shall see come "busy time". It's about me and the animals, lol! Dr. Doolittle style.

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Todd Hughes