Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Tom, it looked like the temps were close to 30 F around your area last night. Just wondering what effects you have seen to date with regards to the local wildlife. Thanks,

Kelly

Check the Iguana forum for a post on a few lizards I found early this morning. Same sort of situation, it will be very interesting to follow the story of how this cold will affect the burms down here. If I hear anything I will try to pass it along here.

Kelly, it's unbelievably COLD here. The high today in full sun was only about 53 degrees with about a 20 mph wind making it seem much colder. This morning for the first time EVER I found FROZEN DEAD Anoles sagrei and dead House Geckos. I HAVE NEVER FOUND THESE BEFORE EVEN WHEN IT HAS BEEN COLDER. The reason is the extended cold period of about 14 days straight. Cold is accumalative in the effect it has on the metabolism of herps. IT'S JUST BEEN TOO COLD FOR TOO LONG. I believe a LOT of things are going to be decimated by this weather...It's sad really to see dead Anoles on the ground....I feel very sorry for them....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I feel conflicted rooting for the cold to wipe out exotics. Thousands of dead animals is not a good thing. I wish I could live in the US AND go out my back door and find iguana's or even a nesting Burmese python. But the backlash from the Burms in the Everglades has made me aware of the ecological, political, and social problems that a good cold front might cure.

I only have a couple years of experience keeping Burmese pythons a long time ago and have never even been to the Everglades. But I'm curious, were you Florida native herpers surprised that Burmese where able to get established there in the first place? Even in my short experience I had to battle respiratory infection. I haven't followed Burmese keeping very closely the last 15 years but gathered that high humidity is now recognized as a requirement for avoiding RI's, is that accurate?

Even then it got me wondering if the animals in the Everglades might be a little different than what I kept. I've read several times that genetic studies have shown the feral Burmese python population to all be closely related, is that true? Are there any of the mutant burms like green or granite in the Everglades population? As unfortunate as a release or escape is I wouldn't be at all surprised if it has happened several times near the Everglades. If there is only one line surviving there could it be because it's a hybrid line with Indian pythons? Probably shouldn't even bring that up because one of the major flaws as I see it in the study is that it uses Indian pythons when they are already banned from import or interstate trade.

But if the Everglades pythons are a unique strain it brings up some interesting issues. For one it would mean that pure Burmese pythons are not a proven threat for establishing anywhere in the US. Unfortunately it would also point a finger back at captive breeders for creating such lines in the first place.

I believe snakes can avert respiratory problems (to name just one thing) by basking in real sunshine. There is no substitute or equal in captive maintenance. I think a big factor in these snakes not adapting is that here it can be 75 degrees one day, and it can drop into the fifties or a cold snap like this in just a couple of days. There’s no way for these animals to properly empty their gut, or find their way to some sort of safe place, hollow log or whatever. It is just such an abrupt change with no natural gradual “heads up”.
If the Burmese really became established from a mass release from a south Dade importer from Hurricane Andrew, I can tell you there hasn’t been a cold spell like this since then. I for one have been very surprised that they have established themselves as well as they have. I was in denial about it for a long time. This cold wave is a real challenge to them. If they can survive this, then they are pretty much here to stay, I guess. Seems almost impossible to me, though.

The main issue I have seen is the increase in the number of RI cases in captive burmese in the 1990's and this last decade. I was keeping captive raised wild caught burmese in the 70's and their offspring in the 80's and rarely ever had RI issues, even if environmental parameters became suboptimal for short periods. Proper humidity and temps are definitely important, but that being equal, RI cases have still increased. I believe the cause is the large scale inbreeding that has occurred which has weakened the genetic fitness of the main captive population. Even though it is likely the small feral population in Florida are from a more genetically fit, closely related group, they will never move out of extreme southern Florida due to periodic cold fronts not even as severe as this one. As Tom said, it is extremely unfortunate that the indigenous reptile population is suffering from this current weather pattern.

Kelly

NO MORPH OF ANY KIND HAS EVER BEEN FOUND. From the info I have it seems that the population is closely related in terms of DNA. I believe it was said that the origin was Viet Nam in terms of DNA. Most of the snakes in private collections have an origin in Thailand going back to the albino lines. It has only been since the 1990's that baby Viet Namese Pythons have been imported. Again this info is second hand but my source is a good one...ALSO THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A HYBRID FOUND...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I would add that there has never been anyone caught, accused or charged with releasing a python in the Everglades, except the scientists who implant the tracking devices and release them. Ever. These guys should be able to tell in a week or so if any of their implanted snakes are alive. Should be interesting

I think they already know and are preparing us now. Check what Frank Mazzeti said in the Miami Herald...I'm hoping the truth will be told and timely...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Found this, and figured it would be worth posting.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0109/Snow-in-Florida-Big-chill-culling-unwanted-iguanas-and-pythons

The article about the rain and cold combo?

http://www.miamiherald.com/486/story/1417659.html

Maybe the South American pythons will fare better ...

Does anyone know about the 10 tracked pythons from this article?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/weather/01/10/us.cold.weather/index.html

I found other links that he has been tracking pythons for some time. If these are ones that where implanted some time ago and have been out all January that might be a good test.

This might turn out to be an Inconvenient Freeze for the python ban.

Good to hear the DNA evidence not supporting a hybrid population.

Tom, thanks for the update. As I stated above, it is extremely unfortunate that the indigenous populations are being decimated by this massive cold front. I hope that the populations are not too damaged and that a recovery is relatively rapid. I am still astounded by the temp readings I am seeing for southern Florida.

Kelly

Fyi the anolis sagrei and the house geckos are not actually indigenous to Fl. they were introduced. Considering that the brown anoles (sagrei) actually range up past the fl. ga. border these days this should give you an indication of how cold it has been for over a week now even that far south in fl, I haven't done the forum thing on here in a while but I've been watching the forums a little bit lately due to the pending legislation. I figured I'd log in and give everybody else in the country a bit more perspective on the cold here. I live on the southern border of Ocala forest about 50 miles north of Orlando (just outside of Deland Fl.) I have seen the temperature barely get to 60f maybe twice this last week. For the most part the daytime highs have been in the 40's to low 50's F and I can think of one night (I think it was thurs.) where the night-time lows was in the 40's f. The rest of the week temps have been in the mid to upper 20's with maybe one night in the 30's f. The temp when I woke up this morning was 23f and it is expected to go down to 22f here. Wednesday evening my next door neighbor called me and asked me if a yellow rat snake would survive out in the open overnight in this weather (went to 28f that night) I told him it wouldn't so he told me come get the one that was half frozen in his yard (about 5:15pm and 39f.) I did it is still alive but it would not have been if I had not retrieved it. I did see some freezing rain saturday and I don't think temps got to 40f yesterday and they only got to 45f today. I addition to playing with reptiles I work as a landscaper when the economy our politicians should be paying attention to (instead of pet snakes and the volume of tv. comercials.) doesn't suck so bad. Between both my hobby and occupation I pay pretty close attention to weather patterns. In the 15yrs I have lived here I have seen temperatures this low but never quite this long although we had 2 cold fronts last year that were comparable but not quite as bad. Last year it got cold enough that I saw cold damaged azaleas in seminole county which is unheard of, in fact a few years ago if you had asked me about planting azaleas in seminole county I would have advised against it on the basis the the climate in the area was getting a bit too warm for azaleas and I did not see them being able to survive in the area for many more years. I had seen evidence of stress in them and other types of plants similar in needs to azaleas that were related to a warmer climate. I am not so sure I would say that now after what I have seen the last couple of years. Of course getting back to what this forum is about I really don't see burms getting anywhere near this area in Fl. much less expanding there range to Maryland (personally I think if it gets THAT warm burms are the least of our worries.) but what do I know I'm certainly not a scientist working for the govt. Thanks to the govt. I don't seem to be working at all these days.

I'm glad someone else has finally pointed this out. The whole idea that burmese pythons will be abundant as far north as the ohio river valley...IF this whole global warming thing pans out...is kind of overlooking the fact that if global temperatures heat up to a point where the ohio river valley is as warm as the everglades, most of us wouldn't be here to debate this. If the temps warmed up that much, wouldn't most of the world either be under water, or part of a massive desert devoid of life? Just a thought...Not really sure invasive species will be that much of a worry at that point.

Well this morning is the COLDEST yet. We have ice everywhere...I would NOT begin to speculate the damage done. There are dead fish EVERYWHERE to start with...It's early morning and I have to check everything in their heated retreats....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, you've met my daughter. She said the iquanas and anole have disappeared recently. She's on the Oleta river in N. MB, and it went down to 37 there. Warmed up now, but the damage is done.

I was on Griffen Rd in Broward. Co today and saw one Iguana...USED TO BE THOUSANDS
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

1/21/10
Just a follow up. Temps here were near record yesterday, about 82 degrees so it has certainly warmed right back up. Very interesting to me, on my dog walk this morning I found a dead iguana and a dead Knight Anole. I think these things that survived the cold are now dropping from the effects. It is very unusual for me to see dead lizards on the ground so I would just think that the survivors of the cold snap are still going to have difficulty because of damage that was done.

Unfortunately the politicians will likely come up with a "we may have dodged a bullet this time due to the weather" but still insist a ban is needed (sic) to prevent a reoccurrence of the great pythonae/boidae invasion!