Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't think that Milks & Kings practice mimicry, either in colors or tail rattling. I think that those traits are FUNDAMENTAL snake traits which developed hundreds of thousands, or millions or years ago.

Common ancestors had banding patterns which were advantageous for survival. They also rattled tails when alarmed or frightened, which sometimes scared away predators. From those common ancestors, species branched out, improving upon the traits of color and defensive behavior in natural evolution.

I don't think that some "intelligence" locked inside animal cells allows it to be aware of conditions outside those cells, sense that the colors or patterns of other animals are more advantageous, and adjust color, texture & hue accordingly to match conditions which those hyper-intelligent cells knew would protect it.

I think that the Coral Snake and Milk Snake both look alike because of common ancestors.

You mention color about 5x, enough said. You should really try to find some good biology books and read about how systematics works. To answer all your questions will only create more questions. People go to school and study such things for decades before they profess such knowledge in public for good reason,lol.
Pigmentation is the last thing that happens before the egg hatches, and its the easiest thing to manipulate as you can so clearly see.

as you said...theory...theirs and yours...

and...you could be correct....

I mean ? why not,,,,

...I often wondered how the heck can a milk think about looking like a coral to scare away other snakes and predators...?....

...you get the idea....like he said....

.......it's all theories...........
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......JY

There is much missconception on what a scientific theory is, as a science teacher I address this all the time. Real scientific theories are based on facts ....the above sounds more like an opinion not a theory that has undergone the rigors that real scientific theories must undergo to be accepted.

The poster doesnt understand the process. The systematics and processes that go together to build a snake from the skeleton on out are all subject to subtle changes that can affect pigmentation. Pigment is indeed the last thing that is developed so all the processes that preceed it would have to be the same....not likely.

I still wonder what making one snake one color(S) has to do with thousands of years of evolution either here....ummm huh.??...

....yea....it's just how it's written.....???....

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scientists...and ....facts......

uuum....they are just humans and they are wrong all the time....

humans thought the Earth was flat.....
humans worshipped the Sun,Rain etc for 3000 years ? plus?...
humans drive cars that are not made to bump into each other....but a beetle(insect) can be dropped from a million times it's height and survive.....bump....

...anyways..........

......snakes are way more related than we think...wait...we know that for a fact.....

....I am not busting on anyone...just thinking outloud....

.....trained people do not impress me all the time...Bio teacher used to come here....he didn't know squat....(yes I know plenty of other bio teachers that know ALOT)......Veterenarians don't all know squat......like the moron that cut open my kids' dog to look inside.....ummm.....why?....see something maybe on X-ray....maybe flip it over and retake X-ray...also they make endoscopes for stuff like that....noooo...cut....$3000 nothing wrong with dog that's for coming.....moron vet...(Lancaster Pa if you want to know....)...

...then there's management.....do not get me started....

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I think I understand what you are saying...

I strongly believe in Natural Selection...so if you have a snake that exhibits characteristics that allow it to survive/thrive and reproduce...then it passes on it's traits to the next generation.

If you have two different species of snakes that look similar, like in the Coral and Milksnakes for example...it's not like the milksnake said..."hey if I looked like that...I would be a bad ass and no one in there right mind will touch me."

I think the combination of the colors (striking and contrasting) and banding (hard to follow when I snake moves) are just obvious ends to a natural selection process loop that's been going on for a LONG time.

-Rusty

I think in part it is ancestory, but only because those ancestors survived with those color schemes or behaviours to pass onto the next generation. I think it was more along the lines of leading to a beneficial end represented today. Maybe the coral is actually mimicking the milk in coloration because that coloration is better suited to survive in their environment? Instead of non-venomous snakes whirring their tales to appear like a rattler, what if a rattler just improved on a trait that is beneficial to venomous and non-venomous snakes because it confuses predators? The cobra flairs its hood to appear larger and more formidable, probably not venomous. The hognose does the same, to appear larger. Not to make predators think its a cobra. Still there are other defense behaviours that may be true mimicry. Garter snakes expanding their rear head area to appear more triangular shaped and perhaps packing venom??

yes....

.....rattlers did just improve on it....sounds good to me...

....garters are venomous ....maybe they make their head flat to push out more saliva.....aaaaah.....

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like you said...they flatten heads and push out necks and raise up and all to just look bigger and badder.....
the colors and the patterns just make it hard to see or hard to concentrate on any given part of a fleeing snake...like the bands......

it was all just an accident that they lived and the all purple or blue ones died off(eaten)........

you never saw the pics of the blue and purple milks?....with yellowish orange between....mmmm...

...................noone is wrong...noone is right....
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......JY

Well, that is not a challenge to the theory but rather an opinion that it is wrong.

Here is how it works. Coral snakes are older than milk snakes, meaning they evolved before milk snakes did. Coral snakes, for some reason that is not that important for this discussion but which probably had to do with red being a common warning color in the natural world, have red/white/black bands.

The ancestors of milk snakes immigrated into the same habitat as corals, so any pattern similarity between them would be recognized by predators. For example, Lampropeltis tend to have bands and can have the same colors as corals. So, any milk snake ancestors that had colored bands would be more "scary" to predators because they look more similar to corals than those milk snake ancestors that did not look very much like colors.

The milks that look more like corals are preyed upon less, and therefore leave more offspring around. Since color/pattern are heritable the offspring of the milks preyed upon less that have the bands look like there parents. But not perfectly so, some look less like them some more, some have better bands and more defined brighter colors some less. Then, it goes again. The milks that look more like corals are preyed upon less, and therefore leave more offspring around. The cycle starts again.

Your right, there is no "intelligence" that is looking into cells or down upon the snakes patterning them. But natural selection does act as a filter, allowing some to survive while others not too. This "selects" those that are most similar to corals to survive and reproduce. Leading to mimicry. As expected, when species like corals and milks stop living in the same range, over time the mimicry breaks down.....

Here is a cool Nature paper about it:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v451/n7182/full/nature06532.html

Best
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

yea....

IF red is a warning color.....?....

what got bitten by the coral snake then warned the rest of it's own species that coral snakes will kill them if bitten???

....see what I mean???.......

....unlike humans....tribes....let's let Mikey eat it....looks good......mmmmmmmmmcough...die....Hmmmm....remember...no eat the red mushrooms in summer.....heheheee....sorry Mikey wife....

....cornsnakes (etc)would not warn other snakes....(or anoles etc etc)...

....I get the point....yes it's selection....what lives moves on what doesn't work dies off....

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No, I dont see your point. Mostly because you have a poor understanding of evolutionary processes.

Its not that some bird gets bitten by a coral and then goes and tells all its bird friends that corals hurt when they bite and are maybe venomous because it feels a little dizzy. The predators can either have a learned aversion to them (ever get drunk on something and then you are no longer able to drink it? I cant even stand the smell of Jack), in other words they have an unsuccessful attack and then dont bother again because they have learned that these striped snakes put up a fight. Or, some predators are born with an intrinsic aversion to the color red, or the striped pattern, and they dont bother with snakes that have those colors and/or patterns. For example, many species of birds like the color blue. They have an innate bias for it, and will go around collecting blue things. They just like the color blue. A blue snake would not last long.

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles