Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am intrigued by reptiles & amphibians like a Naturalist or Scientist. I'm fascinated by their engineering, adaptability and array of colors & patterns. They remind me of living gems.

Accordingly, my outlook differs from many in the hobby. I don't want a collection of specimens locked away in tiny cages, nor a novel addition to my collection that I occasionally show to friends. I want a healthy, happy animal companion housed in a proper setup that I can observe, interact with and enjoy.

I fundamentally feel that if we captivate an animal we have an obligation to duplicate its natural environment & diet as much as possible. (I know, this causes shrieks from the Frozen Thawed advocates.) An objective analysis of the topic concludes that the danger of "rodent attacks" is grossly overstated. The primary reasons for not feeding live food are CONVENIENCE & COST. (Do the same factors determine your choice when choosing your children's food, or do they deserve better?)

The consequence of feeding frozen-thawed food is that we turn a natural hunter into a bored scavenger being fed bland food without variety. Definitely not natural. (Would you want to be fed the cheap stuff from the large bag bought at WinCo, or would you prefer the organic food from specialty market known for quality? How long could you feed on only ONE food item??)

When I learn about a new species like Gaigeae, I launch into an investigation of their region, terrain, diet and behavior. I duplicate their biome with conditions from their natural region. Learning about a snake leads me into a larger path of learning about other regions & biomes. That leads me onto a still larger path of wanting to preserve nature.

(My 60-gallon Cloud Forest biome has 10 species of green plants represented, some are real sprigs, along with rocks, tree stumps, branches and a rock ledge.)

If some larger, more intelligent creature enslaved my race and made ME a pet, how would I want it to care for ME? Would I want it to stick me in a tiny closet on display, feed me only one type of food item (frozen dinners or burgers) and seldom interact with me?

No, I'd want & expect my Captor to meet my needs as best as he was able, and to allow me to explore and play as much as possible to keep me healthy & active.

The first rule of any interaction with any life form is: Do No Harm. Second rule is: Mimic their natural conditions as much as possible. (The goal is not to change them, nor to force them to change their natural diet.)

I'm hoping that as we learn more about our animals that share our planet we can learn to appreciate them for simply existing as the wonder that they are. Whether or not we can buy or sell them, make them perform tedious labor or financially benefit from them.

I'm hoping that as more and more of you start asking yourselves some basic questions about Fairness, you will make new choices to improve conditions for your animals, starting with live feeding and naturalistic enclosures as often as possible.

Thanks for your time & consideration. Name Calling and Character Attacks are not welcome. Intelligent comments defended with logic, reason & examples are very welcome.

Ever forward!!

Image

The 2 major reasons for not feeding live are parasitation and reducing aggression. Get the book SNAKES ECOLOGY AND BEHAVIOR by Siegel and Collins and maybe SYSTEMATICS OF MILKSNAKES by Williams for starters. Though I assume you know your field guides, read the natural history sections as well as the care and range maps. Stop looking at the pretty pictures,lol.

While I appreciate and respect your choices, I for one cannot keep more than three or four snakes that way. And if I were to be captured and contained I would want my keepers to put me into the "hooters" cage. I have all I need in there.

I already had dibs on that cage, and I don't care if it is naturalistic or artificial.
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Mark

Kingsnakes and milksnakes are largely opportunistic feeders. Many types have no problem eating already dead prey. Of course they are adept at hunting as well, but understand that they take advantage of what is available.

I saw a Cal king (wild) come upon and eat a dead gophersnake. No problem for the Cal king. Less fight.

I'm not saying I know exactly what is best, but I don't think all one way or all the other is the only choice. Kings eat dead food without complaint. If they will eat it, it must be OK.
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Mark

"The first rule of any interaction with any life form is: Do No Harm."

There have been many cases of a live rodent injuring and in some cases killing a captive snake. Although you seen to favor "realistic" enclosures, your snake is not living in the wild. It is in captivity. A cornered rodent will fight. In the wild it will run away.

In Carl Kauffled's "Snakes: The Keeper and the Kept" he states "I know a Corn Snake that lost an eye to a mouse that it was constricting prepatory to feeding; I had a Massasauga for ten years which, early in the course of its captivity, was bitten on the neck by a half-dead mouse as it struck the mouse - bitten so severely that a small flap of skin partially severed by the mouse's incisors, remained as a mutilation throughout the snake's life..."

"The consequence of feeding frozen-thawed food is that we turn a natural hunter into a bored scavenger being fed bland food without variety."

So are you saying that you are offering your milk snake variety? They eat snakes, lizards and other things besides rodents.

Tim

Can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that frozen-thawed food is bland food for a snake?? Also feeding live mice is great if you want your snake/snakes dead or mauled!

Scott

one snake mauled/put down....20 years....thousandssssss of feedings and snakes......stupid baby ball and a stupider hopper mouse.....

.....I did witness an 11 foot retic with a hole in it's brain from a smallish large rat......stupid retic.....

....(I feed usually smaller prey than most people....like 4 fuzz instead of 1 large mouse).....easier to walk away....and I check all the large items and rats and do NOT leave them in a cage....

....after awhile you just KNOW what snakes will eat, when and when not....you just throw in and hear the smack....you know it's eaten....corns I actually make them take it from hand usually...no wasted time...eat it...eat it now....bam....

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......JY

I do 99% live feeding...they like , I like it...it;s just so much easier to leave food in there for days and then look for it...rather than look to see if it was eaten within a couple hours, then throw uneaten stuff away......

.(((...aggression.......???..snakes ARE wild animals....period......???...am I wrong?...not 100%"wild" anymore.... but close to it....)))

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......JY

That's cool that you do it for your enjoyment, and didn't make up some type of egotistical arguement that if you don't do it the snakes aren't enjoying life. All I have to do is wiggle the rat around and my snakes have a damn fun time chasing it down and constricting it.

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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

Matt that snake is obviously deppressed and unsatisfied with that nice big rat that was just dangled in front of it. HAVE YOU NO COMPASSION MAN!!!
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Randy Whittington

Well, I have now decided that since cats are a wild animal I am going to find appropriate sized animals for him to chase down and eat. I don't think he is getting his exercise by eating from his bowl. I will tell my neighbor to make sure he starts getting his dog together with other dogs so they can form a pack and hunt down little kids in the neighborhood too. This way they can "get back to their roots" and hunt. Also, I will decorate my house like the amazon jungle to make him feel at home. LOL.

Help, I feel another whacky anti-anthropomorphism thread coming...its coming, its stuck in my sphincter! Any more Ameribran and I'm afraid its gonna get loose everywhere,LMAO! Please, no enema-inducing threads!

I hate to do this Jeff...but I have to AGREE!! This thread-starter seems to have some problems!!
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

Stop the presses! See not everything is my fault. Thanks.

I agree, that dude has mega problems! Wonder why he hasn't come back to answer the questions?

Scott

...Seems to be the way he (or she) does it, makes some outlandish statements to TROLL people into responding, and then disappears.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

>>...Seems to be the way he (or she) does it, makes some outlandish statements to TROLL people into responding, and then disappears.

Could be....but it's a good discussion to have every now and then, in any case.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
0.0.3 corns (TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Doc, " a good discussion every now and then"??? Its kinda like kissing your sister, no one has to tell you twice...I think you gotta go and take a look at that Ball python again, geez.

>>Doc, " a good discussion every now and then"??? Its kinda like kissing your sister, no one has to tell you twice...I think you gotta go and take a look at that Ball python again, geez.

I meant that it's a good discussion to have, in order to make sure that newbies are exposed to things like the pics of the ball....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
0.0.3 corns (TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Honestly, it shouldnt have gotten as much play as it did. Someone should have said "go post that in the beginners forum". I would, but I'd get yelled at for being mean again,lol. There are lots of things that get regurged and rehashed here, most of there are at least 2 sides to come down on though. I did understand you by the way. Thanks.

>>Stop the presses! See not everything is my fault. Thanks.

See Jeff, you two CAN agree! -

I soooooooo could not control myself. I will return to being the respected site coordinator now.....
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

In my best Hunter S.Thompson impression: Back! Back in your hole your fleshy headed mutant! Blasphemy!

Great post Joe!

Scott

LOL hilarious
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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

.I do it cause it's easier for me....you feed 100, 200, even 400 dead items...you better have them eaten or they'll take alot of time to recheck or they will stink bigtime the next day...

....what the heck does the Amazon jungle have to do with a dog feeling at home?...did I miss something...you need it to feel like the Adirondacks......use live rabbits and chickens and rats......actually....wild dogs would still eat 50% of the diet as field mice/voles....so...there you go...live mice for the dog and the snakes.....!....

(my friend feeds his pit only organic dog food...all meat....no crap made dog food from a grocery store shelf....his dog eats better than he does....trust me).....

and if I had my way you would let your dog eat wild /feral cats...they do not belong here anyways...period.......and they aren't that bad tasting either.....the other other white meat....

.......dogs ,cats, and snakes do not think the same way.....

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......JY

Hey , its my wife's cat and I would be happy if the neighbors dog ate him. LOL. I was just farting around with the jungle remark anyway. But I was just trying to make a point. Where does one draw the line as to how we house our animals and try to make them feel "natural".? I have no problem with feeding live rodents. I used to do it all the time until I had a rat take chunks of flesh out of a retics back and expose his spine in three locations. (I was 16 yrs old) I still on occassion feed live but I myself will not walk away until the job is done. Just my way of doing things and others have theirs.

how much do you really hate the cat?

how much do you really like your wife?

(somewhere in between is a 350 degree oven and shake and bake.....)...

sorry.....I had to...and I just happened to actually have at this very momment a rabbit setting out to rest so I can eat it....sucky part is there is no shake and bake here and no bread or cracker crumbs....man...first time I paid 11$ for a rabbit too...usually I get live for a couple few bucks and do it myself........(I just coated it with Tony's.....let's go see how it tastes....>>>

.......live....I do it....but yes we have to watch what we do....

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......JY

LOL!!!! My wife and I are a match made in heaven. Check this out. When we got married she was a VEGAN. I hunt, kill, and eat everything. She drives a toyota hybrid. I drive a Ford F-250 turbo diesel. She likes cats. I hate cats and like snakes. (She did get rid of four of the five cats she had before we got married though, I insisted). By the way, Rabbit is one of my favorites but I like to crock pot em!!!

...crock pot is good....

this one turned out ok.....all I did was totally coat it in Tony's and throw it (whole) on a cookie sheet covered with non-stick aluminum foil.....little over an hour....I hate the whole thing......(2 pound rabbit cleaned,probably 4 live weight)LOL...
...wonder why I am 60 pounds over weight?...hmmm....

.......as for milksnakes......nothing happening here...still brumating....why bring up corns that make 0$.....milks ...a few down and some up I HOPE do NOT lay...(pales are 26 inches? and more one red pair is probably 24-26 inches....hopefully they don't throw me slugs).....temps are down...one girl threw slugs twice last year...6 months apart...totally not normal...Feb and August?...what?....LOL.......so hopefully some good eggs...

........hondos still crazy....campbelli still hate me totally and fully....they were dropped a couple degrees and stopped food(they stopped anyways)....

...so........hopefully spring comes soon enough.....hit 40 today....first in awhile.....!!!

.....(fishing.....)....

you get her to eat meat at all yet???

....Ha!
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......JY

says I hate the whole thing...you figured I ate the thing....

...did not hate it....face burned, mouth could take that much Tony's....
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......JY

LOL!! I got my wife eating fish and crabs so far. I don't think she will do the meat thing though. She just loves it when I pull into the driveway and start cutting up deer. My five year old daughter takes after daddy and eats mostly meat!! I made my wife dinner the other night and used chicken stock. She ate it and liked it. I am not trying to change her, but we as humans have meat eating teeth and forward facing eyes for a reason.

>>LOL!! I got my wife eating fish and crabs so far. I don't think she will do the meat thing though. She just loves it when I pull into the driveway and start cutting up deer. My five year old daughter takes after daddy and eats mostly meat!! I made my wife dinner the other night and used chicken stock. She ate it and liked it. I am not trying to change her, but we as humans have meat eating teeth and forward facing eyes for a reason.

If we had a complete break down of society that created a serious food shortage, I'd be right there with you shooting that deer. But in the meantime, I'm with your wife. I was ovo-lacto vegetarian for more than 20 years...and while I have added seafood to my diet in the last few years, I don't plan on ever going back to "real" meat eating -- as long as true disaster doesn't strike.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
0.0.3 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LOL!! I fully respect your choice and NEVER try to push anyone into eating meat if they choose not to. I actually prefer to hunt deer and eat deer meat then to buy meat from the store. I know a farmer who raises cattle (free range even) and the amount of hormones those things get in their food in SCARY as hell. I also do not agree with the mistreating of ANY animal and try not to support it. I do run out of deer meat though and when that happens, well, gotta get the meat somewhere! We grow all of our own veggies and lots of fruit here in our garden and on our fruit trees. I used to laugh at my wife for all the organic stuff she would buy until I talked with a few farmers and realized what we are eating.

Ya wanna really LOL.....I have roughly 150 chickens -- and I don't eat chicken! I do eat a lot of eggs, though.

If a person is gonna eat meat, then I'm with ya -- it's best to either hunt it or raise it yourself. Just about anything is better than supporting the factory farming system.....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.2 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

you eat eggs,....you therefore eat chicken....

.....I know....you think otherwise....

.....personally...I'd eat His wife's feline.....with garlic ,Tony's and a little smoke.........

.......

wording is everything.....wheew...

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......JY

>>you eat eggs,....you therefore eat chicken....

Ha, you don't even know if the eggs I eat are fertilized or not.

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In fact, most of them are. I eat *potential* chickens.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.2 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LOL...egg's an egg......with or without sperm in it...eeew that's a thought.....

"no I am not"...I ate just one.....

......as long as they aren't a week and a half old....

.....meat......love it.....wait...food...yea...that's it...cooking it, growing it, eating it...fishing hunting...anything.......I never ate bugs yet........just can't.....(and I don't count the bug in the fried rice the other week......thank God there were no bugs in it tonight...)....!!!

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I have eaten my fare share of bugs while riding my motorcycle. They did not taste all that good!! I wonder how cat would taste? I am pretty sure I have eaten it before in some of Washington D.C.'s hard core Chinese carry outs! Man, I used to go into the kitchen of some of those places on burglar alarms and it would make you gag!!! I had to call the health department on a few and of course get all officers on duty to come take a look because they all ate there!!

Hey to each his own and I respect that...BUT i've known herpers who had their snakes lose an eye and another had a boa whose tail was almost severed by a rat. I don't care how large a snake is, a hungry or scared rat can do some serious damage to it.

live food is best used to :
1.Get picky eaters to start eating
2. Get a snakes to eat when just brought out of the cold room
3.Keep them eating later in the summer when they start to go off FT food
4.Used with FT to then slide a few FT meals in as it swallows the live one
Live food cost way more then FT and may be ok if you dont have a lot of snakes.I raise my mice but I could never have enought to feed all my snakes

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wake me when its april

Doug L

Just curious, how did you come to those conclusions, 1-4?

Scott

if a snake will take a a ft mouse then great.If it wont then other methods are tryed.Live food is one of them.Over the years I have learned to do what it takes to get my snakes to eat.Some just never eat and they die

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wake me when its april

Doug L

I agree to some points of yours. Some neonates can be a pain when they don't take f/t pinkies and it is important to get them to eat. But there are always tricks of the trade too. Like braining, scenting, putting them in a small container with the food item, etc.

Scott

Hey Scott, I can assure ya that Doug has tried them all. He and I have had long discussions on trouble feeders many times over. I will tell ya this though, we are ALWAYS open to new tricks!!! You can never know to much with this hobby. Ever. I am going to PM you tonight or tomorrow about our trip. Looks like we are getting some dates locked down for the snakefest!!

Hi Joe! The Trip sounds great, wish it was now. I'm not doubting Doug, there are always options to consider. I'm still leaning as I go and always open to new ideas. Later Bro!

Scott

Hmmmm....

Do you have dogs? If so -- do you feed your dogs by tossing a live deer in front of them?

Also -- if you are so concerned about the welfare and enjoyment of your herps -- how about the welfare and enjoyment of the prey animals?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
0.0.3 corns (TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>Also -- if you are so concerned about the welfare and enjoyment of your herps -- how about the welfare and enjoyment of the prey animals?

I think this is an important point that is often neglected when discussing live vs frozen food. Is it humane to subject a live prey animal to abject terror when there is the option to feed frozen/thawed prey items that have been euthanized in a manner designed to minimize stress?

Personally, I very much doubt that the mental well being of a snake requires "the thrill of the hunt." BUT, very clearly, mice and rats being attacked and killed by snakes suffer significant distress.

deg

I second this 100%. How is it natural for a ,athletic animal like a mouse or rat to be trapped in a glass environment a couple feet long and be chased around by a snake? If you want to get natural, go feed your snake in a barn and release the mouse 25 feet away, and oh yeah make sure to keep an eye on it so you don't lose your snake anywhere.
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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

Ameron, it appears you have a European attitude towards snake keeping with the desire to recreate natural habitats, etc. However, you are still putting your snakes in a box and restricting interaction with variable in nature like drought, or flooding,etc. Also, nature is MUCH bigger than a 60 gallon aquarium and there is just no way to completely duplicate the space these animals have to hunt and interact in.

As a keeper, my goal is to keep my charges as healthy as possible. That means clean and injury free. The likelihood of them getting bit is just too great IMO. Also, F/T is cheaper, JUST as nutritious, and convienient. I never have to worry about running out to the petshop to get snake food or missing a feeding because I cant get to the petshop for whatever reason. Being more affordable and storable, I can stockpile in my freezer.

I dont disagree with your methods of keeping your animals. Many folks feed live prey, especially with smaller collections. When I first started keeping snakes in the VERY early 70s, there was no Mice On Ice LOL!! I think its great you enjoy the hobby through your naturalistic keeping as well. Still, I dont think others are neglecting their animals with other methods of caging or feeding.

I think of it more as physics, or materials science. If you can figure out a way to keep a snake with an appropriate temperature gradient and appropriate humidity levels, then you satisfy the snake regardless of the cage looks.

Nature provides this environment using the mass of the earth and dirt, rocks, plants, etc so kingsnakes in particular can warm up, cool down and avoid dehydration simply by utilizing pretty much the top 12 inches or so of soil in their habitat (also choosing areas that face south or west, perhaps near a water source, etc).

So if you want to acheive those properties in your cage, that is a very valid reason to mimic nature by using dirt and such. But if the cage is merely decorated and doesn't offer the physics behind it, then it may as well not be decorated at all.

For a kingsnake, a cage filled deep with soil with a substrate heater on one end is about as good as it needs to get. Try it out. Cool stuff.
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Mark

Mark, the funny thing about the whole naturalistic approach is that most of my wild caught kings and milks have been found under trash!! You are so right about being the conditions that matter. In the wild they found what they needed ,at the time they were captured, under man made trash. They do what they do. I will say that most of the KINGS that I have caught under sunlit trash, (boards, carpet), have been opaque and I am sure seeking high humidity and heat to assit with the process.

I believe colubrids are a bit more 'pro-active' about not letting this happen to themselves compared to pythons.... but I don't really know and wouldn't want to risk it. Here's a ball python left unattended with a rodent.

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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

You should have led with that post,lol.

Picture is worth a thousand words. Exactly why I don't leave snakes unattented if I use live, which is not often. Good post.

Yep!,...I had a big Indigo(around 1970)that sat there while a rat ate it's entire tail from tip of tail to cloaca because it wasn't hungry enough to eat it, so I left it in for a long while. Nothing but spine was left the ENTIRE length of it's long tail!!!, it also died later. Yes, I learned a valuable lesson very early on. As a ten year old kid, that was quite shocking to see, and I will never forget that incident!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>I believe colubrids are a bit more 'pro-active' about not letting this happen to themselves compared to pythons.... but I don't really know and wouldn't want to risk it. Here's a ball python left unattended with a rodent.
>>

Colubrids hell. One would think a monitor lizard wouldnt allow it, but they have....

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

I thought that was a nasty braided pony tail in the first pic. Oh, that is nasty!!!! Did that snake live?

... the initial post of this thread is wrong in so many ways.

If your snake will eat pre-killed, feed it pre-killed. The benefits far exceed the potential costs.

Doug T

Doug Taylor Reptiles

I will always feed my animals p/k prey, as every one else has said, the risks associated with feeding live prey are just too great, as the picture with the Ball Python shows. I have no problems with owners and breeders who feed their animals live prey, it's their choice. Trying to reason with the person who initiated this thread will be like ramming your head against a brick wall, we can give him all the benefits of feeding p/k, but he will always feel his statement and feelings on the matter is the "right" one.

Chrissy
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1.0 Ball Python-Siegfried
1.0 BRB-Pedro
1.0 Blair's Phase GrayBanded Kingsnake-Elvis
0.1 Paradox Albino Sand Boa-Cleo
2.2 Dodoma's
0.1 pug mix

I used to work at a store that only fed live because we had so many breeders(mice and rats). I hated it. Then I really hated when one of the damn rats bit me as I was putting it into the cage, I yelped, dropped the rat, and the snake bit me instead. The rat was eventually killed because it bit the snake. I killed the rat and he ate it. Then I built a CO2 chamber. You live and learn and then you feed f/t.

yes, well, all this is interesting to say the least, but anyone who feeds live is responsible for making sure of the outcome of both animals. You can't be anthropomorphic about one and not the other, lol! Either they both have feelings or neither do, or is it we love the snakes, but unfortunately, rodents are mammals and have cute features? Not! I hate rats, mice I can deal with, all the rats get whacked, then tug of war with the pines, bulls, and gophers, all the mice go live with a struggle over here. I've seen rat snakes do the deed in the field, and they are precise, I see most of the kings and milks with the same precision. My anulatta is particularly skilled in taking out mice. I understand the possibilities of feeding live, but I use it for exercise, something nobody ever talks about. I haven't had any egg binding issues,(crosses fingers) yet, and I believe this is one of the factors here. Not the only one, but part of the possible equation. also, I would have to buy another freezer, no way! The rodent colony I have supports about 120 snakes from hatchlings to fully breeding adults, it's about how much time you have and how you want to spend it.
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Todd Hughes

i totally agree 100 with the naturalistic enclosures and pratice it (no tubs for me). but not with live feeding. i think frozen is the way to go, but its not because of the money or convinence. feeding frozen protects the snake from being bit or harmed. i mean... yes thats how they evolved and they should beable to handle it, but sometimes bad things happen. a snake can be killed by a mouse or infection from a bite.

its my duty to protect the snake from harm, even if its from it not being an effective killer.

I also like to look at it from the mouses veiw, believe it or not. I would rather be quickly killed than squeezed to death (or injected with venom) by a snake. i think we owe it to the rats to not be so cruel. feeders have a pretty sucky life to begin with. but rats are actrually quite intelligent and personalable.

thats the basics of why i feed frozen.

you could make frozen "fun" for snakes though. you could drag a scent path though the cage or a room and hide the mouse for him to find. or make him "catch" it with tongs. just a suggestion.