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This little girl was given to me as a bull snake by a friend who owns a pet shop.The reason they gave it away was because it is "mean". It doesn't even rattle it's tail at me so,I'm not sure what they meant.Does she look like a bull to you? Thanks! Jeff

I am certainly not a pit expert, but it looks more gopher than bull to me for some reason. Maybe Great Basin or Sonoran.

Jeff,

That looks like a Great Basin Gopher.
Here's one I found in the Las Vegas area.

Tim

Third Eye

I'm no expert but have seen a lot of animals and the colors, pattern, and head on that animal looks like a Gopher to me. Just me 2 cents...
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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this post! I was thinking gopher myself,not really sure why but,that was my guess anyway! Jeff

Oh and nice snake by the way. Love the colors. Glad it is nice too, only adult pituophis i've held is a 5ish' gopher and it was a really nice fun snake. Check out my bull in above post, they're fairly similar.
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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

Rostral scales and saddle pattern scream gopher. At that age I can't tell what kind, though. Very well could be Great basin as stated above. Rich

I say its a Gopher as well. Looks like a Great Basin.

Gopher. How nice someone gave you this pretty little snake.

Looks similar to the P.c. deserticola in some south east SoCal locales IMHO.

reako45

i could not resist putting in my two cents worth on this ID. My gut feeling after looking at the head is that this animal is not a P.c.deserticola. Although the cervical or neck pattern seems somewhat reminiscent of deserticola the rostral scale is indicative of sayi/affinis. Those two groups can be difficult to distinguish and over their range are both often referred to as "bullsnakes". The ID is compounded by the fact that the animal came from a pet store so you have no locality info to assist you.

If the pet store got it locally that could help (i.e. you live in west Texas or AZ, etc....) If it came from a breeder to your pet store you get no real help that way.

It is important to keep in mind that both affinis and sayi are extremely variable even within regional populations. Your animal really has a "southwestern sayi" look about it but that is a educated guess at best...... it could be an unusually pale northwestern sayi or even a unusually contrasty eastern affinis, or a breeder's mix of locality known or unknown founders. Could be an affinis from the intergration zone with deserticola although again the rostral scale is significantly longer than it is broad which is a key diagnostic feature separating the western forms of catenifer from sayi.......

Good points, ginter. I've also heard the Eastern Sonoran and Western Bull's look a lot alike.

First of all I'm no Pit expert but when I first looked at the snake, my initial thought was Sonoran Gopher. I'm just going by blotch color. I've noticed on a lot of Sonoran's that the blotches start out brown or reddish brown then gradually change to black before you get to the tail. In a lot of Great Basin's, I've noticed the blotches start off black at the neck then fade to brown at mid body then change to black again near the tail. I wouldn't say that was the rule but its what I've noticed in most of them. I'm not sure where Bull's fit into that category.

Ginter I understand what your saying, because I have seen the variability in some populations of the SW slew myslef. I think everyone was taking their best shot in the dark.

I heard, and also did not think that you could use the head to judge these snakes in any way? Because they are so variable.

I am with you... I did not put anyone down for their guesses and in fact was only taking my best shot at an ID.

I am not sure where you heard that the "faces" are not diagnostic. The rostral scute is very diagnostic with regards to this sorting out various members of this Genus.

I sound like a broken record but will say it again..... go get Stull's publication on this Genus. There are no pretty pictures and it is a scientific work but if the reader takes the time to study it they will get a very good working knowledge regarding the relationships between the recognized taxa of this Genus.... It really is a Must for anyone who is interested in Pituophis. $24 on Amazon right now!

I hope that my previous post communicated one thing above all.... and that is the difficulty in distinguishing various ssp. of Pituophis without locality info.

I have a pic some where that a friend sent me of a snake seen on the Arizona Strip ( a bit of land north of the Grand Canyon). The snake is very affinisXdeserticola looking. It does not look like either ssp. and w/o locality info it would be tough to ID to ssp. I can't find the picture but will continue to look...

I value your opinion more than most, and I am glad you are a broken record because I remember you posting about Stulls publication but I forgot his name and could not find it on Amazon.

I am going to order it right after I post this. I did not know that you could ude the rostral scute could be used to i.d.

I read an article that said that the head shape of this genus could not be used as an indicator. Think it was about Lousina Pines but my memory is not as good as it used to be.

When my mother-in-law gets back with my good camera (Monday) I will take some pictures of the three Affinis I have that came from NE, NW, and SW Arizona and you can tell me what you think.

Thanks.

thanks man, I appreciate the kind words.

I am always up for a challenge so when you post don't tell us what the given localities are and we can test our wits....

I was just over at the classified section and was amazed to see an animal that is clearly deserticola being sold as an affinis and was also amazed to see folks selling snakes but not taking the time to check the correct spelling of the latin name. I would have little confidence as a buyer in those sellers......

Maybe I'm just too anal......

Actually, I am always amazed when Pituophis nuts choose not to get Olive Griffith-Stull's work on Pituophis. Clearly in 2010 we are in serious need of a new publication (hurry up KJ!, please) dealing with our beloved Genus but don't discredit the efforts Ms. Stull devoted to giving what is still a fairly workable treatment. Can you imagine the many, many , many hours she must have spent stooped over a dissecting scope looking at scale counts, dorsal saddles, etc. of countless preserved Pituophis species and subspecies to arrive at the keys and descriptions she finally put together.

Try to get L. Klauber's work on the island forms of Pituophis also!

It is also worth it to seek out Sweet, et.al. works on Pituophis in the SSAR Catalog.

here is an image of a big, female, wild jersey pine to keeps us thinking about the source or it all..............

...hmmm!

good man!

I concur with Sonoran gopher, possible natural intergrade with sayi, looks like a typical southwestern animal, any black on it at all?

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Todd Hughes

...what the heck is that one? A Kankakee? Would love to see the whole thing...please?

it is a head shot of a mixed locality sayi....

I just thought it showed off the pronounced rostral scute... as per the discussion on diagnostic featuures

here is a full body shot of this animal

66% stillwater bull rostal pic

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- Matt

1.0 Black Milk '04
1.0 Andean Milk '06
0.1 Eastern King '97
0.1 Bullsnake '09

n/p

Your pic here, really shows off the "sayi" sp. characters. This proves some of the difficulty in i.d.-ing certain pits with unknown locality. I would not have known that this animal was an intergrade. The animal in the pic that started this i.d discussion above shows (imo) less of the "typical" Sayi and more on the gopher side. As you said and proved with your pic Ginter, it would be tough to i.d. without exact locality and or breeding background.