Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here to visit Classifieds
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

The Extended Synthesis

Beaker30 Jan 16, 2010 07:38 AM

When the topic of evolution arises in these forums, one of the rebuttals that always arises is the contention that evolution sometimes happens too quickly to happen just by chance. In other words, that changes happen faster than mathematical probabilities would predict. Creationists view this as evidence that Darwin's theory therefore cannot be correct, and that it has to be due to the presence of a "designer".

As is common knowledge, science is known to be tentative. That is, it changes as new discoveries, fact and evidence are uncovered. Darwin's theory was set forth late in the 19th century. He proposed without even knowledge of basic Mendelian genetics as a mechanism for transmission of heritable traits. In the time between Darwin and now, a newer version of evolution was formulated to incorporate newer understandings in science as science advanced. This newer version was called the Modern Synthesis.

The Modern Synthesis was put forth in the 1940's, and has remained unchanged since then. Scientists are now saying that even the Modern Synthesis needs to be expanded to reflect increased understanding of the mechanism of evolution derived from newer fields such as genomics, molecular bio, developmental bio and systems biology. They are calling this the Extended Synthesis to denote that it doesn't change the Modern Synthesis, but adds to it.

Recent evidence shows that there are newly discovered factors that allow species to change faster than predicted via mathematical probabilities. This directly addresses creationists contention that evolution CAN'T happen that fast, so it would have to be incorrect. Some of the new evidence includes:

1. Proteins that inhibit ribosomes from receiving the signal of where to stop when reading RNA during translation. That is the processes where proteins are made. This causes the ribosome to read further along the RNA strand than it should, thus expressing previously unexpressed genes. This leads to new physical traits being shown in individuals of that species.

2. Evidence that physical and chemical factors play a larger role during embryonic development than previously thought. In other words, once DNA is read and development begins, things like chemicals, temperature, etc can influence the final physical appearance of the individual. An example would be during pigmentation. If a chemical or physical factor happens as pigment is being distributed, the individual may be born with spots instead of stripes and therefore subject to different natural selection pressures.

3. Things like diet may have more influence than previously thought. The vitamins and minerals present in the diet of the mother can affect changes in DNA. One of those changes is in methylation of DNA. That is how the DNA strand is wrapped around certain proteins. That affects how the DNA is read during translation. Scientist have discovered that the mother's intake of folic acid (part of her diet) affects how the DNA is methylated.

These are just some of the newer findings. It has always been my contention that one of the strongest pieces of evidence for evolution is the fact that even with our lightning fast advancements in science in the 150 years or so since Darwin first set forth his theory, there has been no evidence found yet that contradicts evolution. This is another example of that coming into play. Our newer findings are again supporting evolutionary theory, and taking away another argument that creationists have tried to use to discredit it. Like I say, evolution is like a jigsaw puzzle with some missing pieces. Those missing pieces make the picture still incomplete. Yet just because the pieces are currently missing, doesn't mean they don't exist...merely that they haven't been found. We are finding more and more of the pieces of the evolutionary puzzle....and the picture is becoming clearer as we do.

Link: http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/56251/
-----
God Bless Evolution.

Replies (17)

antelope Jan 16, 2010 10:57 AM

That's why I put Louisiana hot sauce on my mice before feeding, I want something ZESTY to pop out, lol! Geez, Craig, I'm gonna stick to trying to make healthy purty snakes, that makes my head hurt! Weather should break soon...
-----
Todd Hughes

RossCA Jan 16, 2010 06:33 PM

antelope Jan 16, 2010 10:19 PM

LMAOROFLMAO...again!
-----
Todd Hughes

Shadylady Jan 17, 2010 09:37 PM

Makes perfect sense to me...
-----
----------------------------------------------------------
Amy Claiborne

'A government big enough to give you everything...is a government big enough to take it all away.'

CSRAJim Jan 16, 2010 08:07 PM

Craig,
Darwin wants to know is this post of yours natural selection, gene recombination or mutation.....you've got to be kidding.
Later
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

Beaker30 Jan 16, 2010 08:50 PM

Jim,

Its none of the above. It provides recent evidence uncovered that puts forth that there are additional factors involved that can result in individuals of a population changing more rapidly over time than at rates predicted via mathematical probability.

Craig
-----
God Bless Evolution.

CSRAJim Jan 16, 2010 09:26 PM

Craig,

Your kidding...

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

zach_whitman Jan 16, 2010 09:54 PM

I have to admit that the strangeness of this post on the KS forum is all that got my attention.

Everything in your post above is still within the context of evolution. Mathematical formulas can predict the rates of random changes in DNA and they can even predict about how often these random changes would be lethal, benign, or beneficial. But no one ever said that the rate of evolution was restricted to the rate of random single base pair mutations (that would be too slow). A small genomic change can have a large phenotypic change and vice verse. Genetic change is change, and when it effects natural selection for the better it is called evolution. it does not matter why, or how much, or how fast, it is still evolution.

I guess I don't get where you are going with this. I don't see why this needs a new name or how this new term is any different from the old one. And I wouldn't exactly call these new ideas either.

Beaker30 Jan 16, 2010 10:16 PM

Zach,

These were not posted as new ideas. I read an article I found interesting, posted the link and passed my ideas about it along. I have seen some of the sprited debates in these threads and remember a few responses citing mathematical probability as a reason to discredit evolutionary theory.

There is currently debate among evolutionary scientists as to whether these additional factors should be added to the current modern sysnthesis of evolution. New findings are showing that there are indeed more factors involved than previously acknowledged that contribute to rate of change in populations.

I simply threw these findings up for the parousal of anyone interested. I do thank you though for a well thought out response rather than just a dismissal as an attempt to discredit. Those who do so must simply lack any tangible evidence to put forth in support of a possible opposing viewpoint.

Craig
-----
God Bless Evolution.

Beaker30 Jan 17, 2010 07:14 AM

Zach,

Another reason I felt compelled to post this article was how it specifically addressed some areas of personal interest. As some may know, the main body of my collection is thayeri. I love all thayeri, but have a particular fondness for less frequently occurring and aberrant patterned animals.

I have had on-going conversations over the last few years with other keepers specifically related to a couple areas coincidentally discussed in the article. We have discussed how there seem to be both genetic and developmental aberrancies in thayeri. Some aberrancies in offspring duplicate the look of the parents, but some aberrant offspring have come from parents who have had thrown no aberrant offspring in the past. It had been hypothesized that developmental factors such as temperature may have an effect during development. And we have even considered mold on the eggs as a possible factor. This would tie right into the article as far as the mold possibly introducing chemicals not previously present during embryonic development. That's not to say that genetic mutation isn't the explanation for parent animals who have not previously thrown aberrant babies, but could a temperature spike or moldy eggs be more than coincidence in some instances?

Other discussions have centered on fecundity. One keeper in particular hypothesized a change in diet as a reason why some of his older breeder animals were once again producing clutches in the double digits after their production had declined over the last several years. I have been talking to him lately about taking a survey of these older breeders who have changed diet and seeing if they may be not only producing more eggs, but also if they are producing more pattern aberrancies. That could be the result of different vitamins and minerals available during embryonic development, which is another topic addressed by the article.

I also thought that if I am thinking about these factors in thayeri, I am sure others have pondered similar ideas concerning other species they may work with. Therefore since I view these forums as not only a place to ohh and ahh over pics other keepers post of their collections, but also as a source of information, I thought posting the article for others to consider was valid.

Craig
-----
God Bless Evolution.

LIRepman76 Jan 17, 2010 09:21 AM

Some truth there but you have to be able to trust the keeper they came. Some have made hybrids and made up there own lineage info like no one would notice. Abberant gray bands as I've seen when added to thayeri make wierd abberant crosses. People should be more honest about what they are breeding and not think everyone else is that dumb to believe them since they didn't say to them.
-----
Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Beaker30 Jan 17, 2010 10:33 AM

True. It is imperative to know your source(s). I have been as diligent as I prudently can in the course of obtaining my collection. I can trace the provenance of each of my animals back several generations...several back more than 20 years...to their reputable sources. The bottom line is to do your homework and represent your animals honestly.
-----
God Bless Evolution.

zach_whitman Jan 17, 2010 08:39 PM

Yeah I have often thought that theyeri are too variable for your typical genetic mechanisms to be responsible. All of your ideas are good ones. There are a variety of known mechanisms by which different sections of DNA can be activated or downregulated depending on tons of environmental factors.

antelope Jan 18, 2010 01:02 AM

Craig, many of us have had moldy eggs, I have and have not seen any abberencies I could attribute to that. Also, more alterna keepers and mountain king keepers feed lizards as an either must have or dietary supplement, and I haven't heard of too many abberent animals coming from these breeders. Fecundity, yes. However, I am starting to see some abberencies (minor) in a w.c. reverse striped X normal locality ratsnake I am working with. I believe temp fluctuations during incubation and having the abberent gene(s) close are the main reasons we see what we see today.

-----
Todd Hughes

tgcorley Jan 17, 2010 08:47 AM

Thanks for the post, Craig. It's interesting stuff. We are seeing now that all that supposed "silent" or "junk" DNA is not really unused, but rather is involved in incredibly complex mechanisms of regulation of the genetic library present in cells. I am a scientist/educator and I believe that evolution is the best explanation (so far) for both the diversity AND the common characteristics of living things on this planet.

Yet I am a very spiritual person and definitely NOT an atheist. It's either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty that leads to the false dichotomy that either you believe in God OR you believe in evolution. For the record, one can believe in both quite naturally and comfortably.

Beaker30 Jan 17, 2010 10:28 AM

Tom,

I agree with you totally. To understand that life proceeds via evolution does not mean you have to disavow a belief in a creator. They are not mutually exclusive.

Craig
-----
God Bless Evolution.

emysbreeder Jan 18, 2010 07:22 PM

Waaaaay back,"in the day of the creation" of the albino cornsnake I ask the "creator" Dr.B.Bectael (sp?)at a herp gathering in Fl. "why do yellow ratsnake baby's born with connected blotches turn to stripes when just 50 miles away baby gray ratsnakes keep the blotched connected patern? He said quickly "Because God wanted them that way"! Just a BLAST FROM THE PAST! Vic

Site Tools