Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know that spiders are known to have a head wobble, but does anyone know if that carries over to combo morphs, such as the various bees?
-----
Tri State Pythons

In short, yes, the wobble can be passed on to any offspring that carry the Spider gene. I had a Bumblebee that used to do the backwards-head-flip thing. It was kind of creepy to watch because it almost looked like he was having some sort of seizure.
-----
.
.
.
.
Stay United!

"...I say 'apparently' because despite all our progress she is not at all a tame or handle-able snake and gettting her from that cage would re-start a war.. and we've had a good armistice for several months now."-Gus Rentfro - I love this quote!

I have a male bee with an extreme wobble. More like an air show -- double inverted loop-d-loops, which usually crash and burn. If its feeding time that means an open-mouthed crash, and then I wait for him to gum out the substrate so we can try it again. Thankfully he takes f/t large rats -- not sure he could hit anything mobile or smaller.

I was wondering though, has anyone ever studied whether this trait has a higher incidence in males than females? I have a total of 8 spiders and spider crosses, and all 6 of my females are wobble-free. Touch wood.

Couldn't tell you about males, but my spider girl is EXTREME with the corkscrews too. Usually at night when she's wandering, though she had a fit when I tried to soak her once that was so disturbing I immediately pulled her out. For meals she just gets the shakes before striking.

-----
1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

love the picture it does transfer but i have a male and never seen a wobble at all just get a good breed
-----
spider m
pastel f
pastel m
high c albino m
het for albino m
het for albino f

I'd call NERD a good breed.
-----
1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

Really?......
-----
www.strictlyballs.ca

Er... yeah really? They're one of the bigger mass breeders, but I've talked to them a lot and they've always done good in my book. They knew the animal they sold me. Got any conflicts with that experience?
-----
1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

Nope, not on an open forum I don't.
-----
www.strictlyballs.ca

I'm dating myself, but it reminds me of when I used to have to put coins on the needle on my record player to keep it from skipping...
-----
Have you been hugged by your snake today?

Ball Pythons
1.1 het Caramel Albino (Edward & Bella)
0.1 poss het Caramel Albino (Rosalie)
0.1 Caramel Albino (Bellatrix)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Princess Buttercup)
0.1 Pastel Orange Ghost (Nagini)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost (Nick)
0.1 Spider poss het Butterscotch Ghost(Nymphadora)
1.1 Mojave (Lucius & Renesme)
0.1 Pastel Lesser (Narcissa)
0.1 Pinstripe (Arwen)
1.0 Pewter (Salazar)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Alice)
0.1 Lemonblast (Luna)
0.1 Blond Pastel (no name yet)
1.0 Bell Pastel (Jasper)
0.1 African Dinker (Esme)

Corns
1.1 het Amel, Anery, Charcoal, Bloodred (Romeo & Juliet)
1.0 Blizzard het Bloodred poss het Anery Lav (Tumnus)
0.1 Granite (Ravenclaw)
0.1 Fire het Anery (Ginny)
0.1 Anery Lav (Lucy)
0.1 Plasma (Victoria)
0.1 Opal (Jewel)

Hogs
1.0 Albino Western (Hogwarts)
0.1 het Albino Western (Hufflepuff)
0.1 Tri Color (Molly)

Hahaha! One of my long distance friends got her first ball AND it happened to be a runt, so I was showing her how big this spider was at only a little older.
-----
1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

Yup. All spiders have the wobbles, and combos like bees are just spiders more genes.
-----
1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

Er, spiders WITH more genes. This forum doesn't like the plus sign I guess.
-----
1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

yes...any and all combos or spiders---- all have it....
--
-----
.......
.......
......JY

ALL spiders don't wobble, cork screw or have some neurological problems.

Some do, it is a genetic default of the mutation (similar to kinking in caramel albinos) probably related to line breeding. I have two bumblebees, one is perfect, and one corkscrewed as a baby (on that note, I would like to thank the bigger name scum bag who sold him to me, just reinforced my thought that buying from small breeders who actually know each snake is better than buying from mass produced breeders who only see the snake once every 10 days to feed/water it and only for about 45 seconds).

On another note, I do think they grow out of it. I have had mr corkscrew for 3 years and he rarely shows any signs, he's been relegated to a family pet and is an excellent eater (as are most spiders) but will never breed. Would love to hear others thoughts on growing out of the corkscrew???
-----
Matt Buchanan

most spiders are pretty stable and just freak out a bit when stressed like during feeding or handling. I would like to applaud your comment though on the smaller scale operation. While I have no real issue with bigger producers for the most part I am very proud of being able to say that I work with every animal in my collection almost every day and that nobody else does anything and that I can tell you everything about them. Thank you for saying that because I dont think most people realize the value of it. E

On the whole, I am sure most of the large scale operations are awesome and credible, I had one bad experience and will only go down that route with someone I really trust again (and again, I trust most the people I talk with). I think 98% of the people out there are honest and true, and I know for a fact there are large scale breeders who put down or relegate these 'special' snakes to 'pet only' status.

My bad experience actually stemmed from someone sending out their snakes via another guy (along with his 14 yearoldish son) to a smaller local shows, and the main issues is that he was willing to sell the snake that corkscrewed or wobbled. I tried calling the guy several times, left him voice-mails, and never heard back. Perhaps he did not know because he put out a ton of clutches that year? I hope that was the case and he was not just sending the snake out no matter what shape it was in to make a buck. Either way, a lesson learned.

I produce only a few clutches each year, and it's a large investment of time to really put the effort into each snake.
-----
Matt Buchanan

How about a name?

Not sure where you get your information - the wobble came with the first imported spider which was extensively bred out creating more wobbly spiders that have been even further out bred over the years - so it's not a "line breeding issue."

All spiders wobble or have the propensity to wobble whether it be looping, shaking or just a slight head tilt. Some do it very little and others to a more extreme, some tend to grow out of it others get it later in life.

As it appears most evident when stressed or excited , most spiders if kept under decent care will rarely display the wobble, doesn't mean that it's gone or they don't have it.

Whether it is a "problem" is in the eye of the beholder - most big breeders don't consider a wobble an issue and if you did your homework you would have inquired prior to purchase. To call a breeder a scumbag is extreme since you yourself didn't do your half of the due diligence either.

I've seen many people claim their line of spider doesn't wobble - yet I've never seen anyone put their money were their mouth is and guarantee it.

It is what it is.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons
The Blog
nihil facimus sed id bene facimus

Yes, thanks, I've done plenty of homework and I think about 1/2 of what you just wrote is misinformed. I do like to buy snakes at local shows, it is a big part of the industry and how it all started before having a nice website made you a credible breeder. Having a table at shows, going to shows, buying/trading at shows is part of getting out into the herp community and getting to know people and form relationships. Pretty sure I understand how that side of it works.

The statement: "As it appears most evident when stressed or excited , most spiders if kept under decent care will rarely display the wobble, doesn't mean that it's gone or they don't have it." is flat out wrong. You can have two bumblebees next to one another in a rack and have one that wobbles and one that is perfectly fine, conditions being the same, one just has it. Factual.

I also don't agree with you saying everything that incorporates the spider mutation has 'wobbles', that's a pretty bold statement for all those breeders out there who produce spiders and the 40 different offshoots of the spider mutation. Also, I am not talking my book, I have only two snakes with the spider mutation incorporated in them, so I have no real reason to say anything other then what I have observed and discussed with people in real life conversations.

GETTING BACK TO MY POINT, it is from an ethics standpoint, not an "I didn't do my homework/due diligence" standpoint. If you are selling a snake that visibly wobbles, disclose it. I know plenty of of breeders that do that, what I have seen for visibly wobbly bumbles and spiders is that they sell the snake at roughly 50-60% if market value for nonwobblers. I learned that from going to expos and talking to folks at those expos/shows.

Again, support your local herp show, buy snakes there. If you are selling a snake, be honest.
-----
Matt Buchanan

going to shows and talking to others is a very good way to obtain information. However, it does have the flaw of that these people need to know what they are talking about. Me personally, like to speak of what I have seen with my own eyes. First every spider/combo that I have in my collection has at least one quirk from head tilting to corkscrewing. The most subtle of these is a bee from 09 that only exhibits this head tilt when food is in the room (it tilts about 35 degrees with no shake or corkscrewing and the snake does not exhibit this once her tub is opened only can see it through the plastic) and the most extreme is my original breeder male that has is one of the worst cork screwing animals I've ever seen (he no longer breeds as I don't need more normal spiders and lives as a pet). I've been to probably 2 of the top 5 breeders facilities in this country and they even told me they had spiders/combos that didn't wobble. I said SHOW ME!!!!! And they did, and every animal I saw had some quirk (the head tilt is the normal thing that is seen in these non-wobblers/spinners). So from what I've seen with my own eyes out of SEVERAL HUNDREDS of spiders/combos I'VE NEVER SEEN ONE THAT DOESN'T HAVE SOME NEUROLOGICAL QUIRK. Like the previous poster stated, of all these people that have animals that don't wobble, why don't they guarantee them? Because they can't!
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

toshamc and joshhutto. Another key point is that the degree of defect identification is subjective. Some "wobbles" are pretty obvious to everyone but some that appear not to have any neurological defect to one person, may be easily identifiable to another.

I agree Josh, they all do have some quirk. Just go in your snake room in the middle of the night when they are most active and you will see them doing something. I think some of you will be shocked by what you see.

I have to disagree with the idea that "all" spiders wobble. My first two ball pythons were 2 male spiders, each about 7 or 8 months, and about 400 grams. I've never seen either one of them or any of their offspring wobble, shake, spin, rotate, fly around the room, or any of that. Not right out of the box they were shipped in, not before or after feeding, not when I handled them, not when they were with females...just didn't happen. And again, I'm one of these people that has few enough snakes to be in my snake room multiple times a day; watering, feeding, cleaning, or just enjoying my snake room...my point of course being that I didn't just buy two spiders and never look at them again.

I appreciate all of the feedback, and didn't mean to turn it into a heated argument about breeders and ethics. I was just curious because I have a pair of spiders, the female doesn't show much, if any, wobble. The male, however, has a pretty mean wobble after eating.

The reason for my question, was to determine if the wobble would disappear when bred to other morphs, because of the fact that you are broadening and possibly strengthening the gene pool. I had no intentions of breeding them to each other, but do intend to breed them to other morphs that I have. Thanks again, and please don't fine, you'll wake the children.
-----
Tri State Pythons

Please don't fight. Damn spell checker.
-----
Tri State Pythons