Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lester, and Jeff Judd and others, if the area that Wells has posted in San diego is up for new housing is there a way we could participate in some relocation of some of these babies? Just a thought.........

I think it has to be done, definetly do it, if I was closer to SD I would do it.
- Jim

Lester is the only one I know of with permits for this species. More than likely you need to have him sponsor you to do any work on the protected species of horned lizards here, "he does the work on horned lizards in CA". I have been trying to get permits for over a year to do work, for conservation efforts, on both mcalli and coronatum, but it is somewhat difficult. I need to have an organization or university sponsor me, no one seems willing. Sadly, more horned lizards and their habitat continue to decline. It seems the people who already have permits would want more people to participate in conservation efforts, so far this has not been the case, in my situation at least. I would gladly be willing to help but we need someone with permits.Jeff

If these lizards were going to die, I would go up get them and relocate them. These lizards are very scarace and I don't want to see them get anymore scarace, I have NEVER even seen a Cali HL in my life out in th wild, and if their homes keep getting torn down I would save them permit or not. But then again not everyone is not like this and this would be illegal but it is for a depleting animal and a great one at that.
- Jim
Hopefully Lester could help out, I would like to see a Cali HL sometime

Where do you live man? They are all over where I am.

Where do you live man? They are all over where I am.

Cable, that is the problem with horned lizards and the lack of protection. Developers and politicians argue that horned lizards are all over the place and fail to look at the science and surveys. The range of the San Diego Coast Horned Lizard is down to 38% to 40% of what it used to be, and it continues to decline. I have lost 3 study sites to development in the 16 plus years that I have worked with horned lizards and there continues to be no logical need for the continued loss. When I publish my long term studies, I am recommending a Threatened Status for the Coast Horned Lizard. I support the Threatened Status for the Flattail Horned Lizard. There continues to be a complete lack of designating protected areas, and I mean large areas, to protect natural communities.
Captive propogation of the species has nothing to do with conservation issues. You can captive propogated all you want for "conservation" but that does nothing for the species unless there is habitat available to support the species (of not only horned lizards, but many species). I know of areas where the Coast Horned Lizard is very plentiful (2.6 HLs per acre). I lost a 647 acre study site where HL density was 3.2 HLs per acre and it also had two listed species on the same site. It was mitigated to "Findings of no significant impact" which is a joke. Open space does not make money. Right? Lester G. Milropy III

Hey Lester, glad to see you are back on the forum! You must have been in the field again.
I have been giving this a lot of thought lately as well. I understand what you are saying, that CHL habitat is down 40% of its historical range. And although that may be a very bad thing for 40% of the CHL population I honestly don't see that it necessarily spells the demise of the species. It just means its space is down 40%. It still enjoys a very large range according to the facts I have been able to gather. And I can't seem to find any studies that talk about the actual range size needed to sustain a healthy viable population. They all just talk more or less about the decline and the reasons for it. It is an important point, don't get me wrong. It just seems myopic to only consider that side of the issue. The one study paper I posted is a good case in point. (http://www.werc.usgs.gov/sandiego/pdfs/Fisher_etal2002ConBio.pdf) This paper describes quite an extensive study of populations. But if you superimpose the study sites map over a human population map you'll see that it targeted areas primarily under or near commercial development, which may very well have been the point of the paper. But my point would be it still does not detail how the untouched wild populations are faring and their ability to carry on the species without problem. If you base your “threatened” status just on the bad news you are ignoring part of the argument. So a study may not really end up with a valid conclusion regarding the threatened status of a species and it may be construed by many as just an agenda, which is a sad thing. I have lived in California for over 40 years now and I've seen my share of hiking and hunting areas turned to neighborhoods. A person might say it is just about money, but in reality there are more and more people and they have to live somewhere. Land will be developed to handle it. I am sure much of it is going to continue to go that way unfortunately. And the animals in those areas will be displaced or destroyed. The best you can probably do in those cases is try to relocate those populations somehow. Even if it is to private ownership it is better than the bulldozer (assuming proper education). On the positive side I can take you to a few areas that are tens of thousands of consecutive acres of wild land that will see very little to no development in the foreseeable future and it is almost all CHL habitat. I have validated that on my own. I am amazed that they are actually so widely abundant in these areas, even though some parts of it are off-road vehicle country (motorcycles and 4 wheelers). They even seem to thrive right next to the roads and trails although I am sure they must suffer some from it.

I agree that captive propagation will have little effect on increasing the wild populations by adding to them. Wild populations seem to do just fine on their own given the right conditions. If those conditions are removed they suffer or disappear. I would not argue for it unless there was acreage available that would support them that currently does not have populations. And even at that you would have to consider what native species they might displace by their introduction. Not a promising prospect. But captive propagation, properly managed “might” help ease some of the pressure from wild populations and possibly contribute to the knowledge base for the species as a whole.

I think you are fighting the good fight Lester. I just don't see the picture as totally bleak yet. I plan to attempt some mapping efforts and populations counts next spring to see what I can come up with over a given area. Fascinating work I think. I don’t plan to touch or disturb anything, just document and maybe photograph. (Is it possible that you can ID an HL from the horn pattern like a fingerprint?) Perhaps you can share some of your techniques? I am very interested in your studies as well and can't wait to see what you come up with. I am sure it will add great perspective. I have your website bookmarked.

Thanks for taking the time.
Cheers!

I hope your wrong Lester. On the Fish and Game website the "Threatened Status" means threatened with extinction. This would be very upsetting if it were true. Around this area (Joshua Tree National Monument and the Big Bear Foothills) their are still huge populations in areas that will, thankfully, never be developed. The Coachella Valley Fringe Toed Lizard was labeled "Endangered" (A higher level than Threatened) yet this did nothing for the lizard, the valley continues to develop at higher levels than ever 15 years later after designation. So what can help the lizards? The only thing that kept this lizard from near extinction was the designation of Preserve Systems and the Windmill Areas. The Nature Conservancy and BLM were a big part of these preserve systems. I believe the only way to save both the FTHL and the CHL are through preserve systems. In my opinion both money and effort should be put towards these sytems where it really counts, not wasted in court where the outcome is usually discouraging plus builders always find away around the Endangered level by saying exactly what you said "Findings of no significant impact".

As far as captive propagation for conservation, I think it could be an extremely useful method. Many populations struggle from both on and off road vehicles and from non native predators in what can be called disturbed habitat. Even releasing 20 to 30 hatchlings a year might prove to be extremely helpful to these sruggling populations and might even save them. It's worth a try.Jeff

Hey Jeff,
Maybe there is some grounds for captive bred help for some populations. It should surely be considered and discussed amoung you professionals anyway.

I went out again this morning to one spot I was sure held CHL's but have been unable to prove it until today. I saw no less that 7 different juveniles. I really didn't even go to try and see them, I was on an ant mission for my new DHL's. I got to a good ant hole and set my bucket down, nearly on top of a CHL young'n. So of course I had to start looking around for more.
Sure enough within 25 yards I saw all 7. They were several that were significantly larger than some so I have to assume at least two broods. The one in this photo was actually right next to my truck (and a set of 4 wheeler tire tracks )which I had been in and out of 2 or 3 times already for water and my ant bucket. Startled us both when I went to put the bucket in the back. The last one I saw I was actually driving out of the site and I surely would have run him down, but to my amazement he flew across the road and into the brush as my truck approached! I have always wondered how they survived so close to the road. The yellow lines in the photo show where he is in the full picture. Almost impossible to make out if you didn't know he was there.

This is the third site I have confirmed decent populations of CHLs. All separated by at least 6 miles but as much as 20 miles. And all almost contiguous land. The only thing separating the further sites is a freeway which is a pretty significant seperation.
I also know that down your way and further out, to the Anza area are all good grounds for CHLs.
And also all along the foothills near the 138. I have seen them at Devil's Punchbowl but it has been many years. I mean to go back next spring and reconfirm that.
But that is a long streatch of population. And much is National Forest.

Lester, could you give an idea how this sizable population might be in danger of extinction? Perhaps the desigation is regional?

Where do you see these? As I have posted before I have searched high and low to just see and take pics of some CHLs for years and have never even seen one in the wild !!?? Any sites around Santa Barbara where I could get some pics?
Thanks
- Jim

Hello Jeff.

The "Threatened Status" designates the possibility of extinction. The "Endangered Status" designates extinction is likely. There is a difference. I am very aware of the CHL populations you cite in and around Joshua Tree and the Foothills. To say that these areas will never be developed is a good thought, but development of the surrounding areas also has to be in the picture. The effects of development on boundries can also have a negative effect if buffer zones are not effective.

The Fringe Toed Lizard had/has problems because of politics and apathy. The Nature Conservancy and BLM have done, and continue to do great things on not only protecting species/biodiversity, but the habitat needed to support the species/biodiversity. Have you attended the hearings BLM has had on the West Mojave Plan? They are also designating areas with a focus on the CHLs and FTHLs. The Preserve system is great and needs support from all aspects. To negate legal action though, is a narrow minded and shortsided view. If we have laws, then legal action is a necessary path to be taken when the need arises. Developers are always going to argue "property rights" and "interfering with private business" as a catch all. The legal action brings in mitigation. Is mitigation always positive and constructive? NO. Maybe that is why we need to make stronger laws.

Captive propogation is not a viable solution in conservation issues. If the problems are on and off road vehicles, remove them. If the problem is non-native predators, remove them. What good would captive propogation do in these cases? If a population within an area is already at "carrying capacity,' introducing new individuals would cause more problems and push the existing population to decline even further. The problems with non-natives includes non-native ant species out competing native species of ants, non-native grasses "chocking" open areas used for basking, introduction of new pathogens, and other such issues. Captive propogation would have no benefit.

Translocation or introduction of members of one population into another population requires a lot of planning and preperation. Habitats have to be compared and contrasted. Individual animals have to be screened and "fitness" determined. Areas have to monitored, pre and post. The high failure rates make this a not so advised program. In situ protection is the optimal measure of conservation.

Best to you,
Lester G. Milroy III

Hi Lester,
We have debated over what should be the MAIN focus of conservation of HLs enough so I will leave that alone. I would like to touch up on the captive propagation of HL for reintroduction to disturbed habitats though. It would be impossible to "remove" the towns of Brawley and El Centro, Palm Springs and Indio, the agriculture fields(that bring invasive non-native predators), the landfills,the salton sea, the canals, the highways and the vehicles on them, and turn the Ocotillo Wells State Vehicle Area to the Ocotillo Wells State Preserve and so on. However we can try and salvage what is left. For example their is an 11 KM stretch of highway 78 running through the northern part of east mesa. Mayhew found 500 p. mcalli on this stretch of road through 1961 -1964 over half dead(1982 Turner and Medica). He said it was the most common lizard in the area. After the navy used the land. Today it is almost non-existent there. The habitat is still very viable all the ants are there, no bunch grass, the road caused it's demise. If a 1 foot plexiglass wall was placed on this stretch(their are canals on both sides) and the FTHL reintroduced Do you know for a fact it couldn't be re-established? Have you ever tried to re-establish HL populations? If so what species and what methods did you use? How many were released? What was the HL count before releasing any captives? What was the count after releasing captives in consecutive years following?
What was the rainfall during these years and how does it compare to past years?

__________________Highway78_______________________________________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Wall |
| |
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| canal |
|canal
| habitat

Thank you in advance for your time,
Jeff

Hello Jeff.

When you site Mayhew's observations from 1961 to 1964 and finding 500 P. mcalli along this area, you fail to also address that this was also 40 years ago. The population of California was considerably less, the automobile traffic was considerably less, land use was considerably less, and the list goes on and on. Yes, the Flattail was very plentiful and I know the study by Turner and Medica. What about "after the navy used the land?" You left the statement open. How can you tell if the habitat is still "viable?" The bunch grass you mention is a native plant and if that is missing, there could be a problem. The idea of placing a plexiglass barrier along the area would not be cost effective (material, monitoring, etc.) and would also block animals establishing a home range without restriction. If I knew "for a fact" that populations could not be reestablished, I would be a Nobel Prize winner.

Yes, I have done several studies on reestablishing populations of horned lizards, by captive propogation and translocation, at 11 different sites and with 3 different species. As for releasing data on the studies, that will come when I publish my findings.

The bottom line, and you will find this throughout the literature, is that protection of species in situ is primary and priority. Wildlife reserves and protecting open space is of primary importance, at this point, as is management of these areas.

Is captive propogation for reintroduction or reestablishing populations of horned lizards viable? Maybe. But the success rate needs to be far greater than just a 50/50 chance. Read the literature. Captive propogation needs to far exceed the supply and demand scenario for the pet trade though.

Lester G. Milroy III

As you know I would like to help on conservation efforts for mcalli(population counts, viable habitat, primary threats, re-establishment possibilities ect.) Please let me know what I can do, I go down to FTHL range very often.

I see now that you said "down to 40%" and not "down 40%" which is significantly different. It still begs the question what range is required to maintain the species. Do you have an answer? Whether it is your opinion or information from any studies you may know of, especially in relation to genetics.
I am thinking of the condor as an example of a species that is being brought back from the brink of extinction (successfully?) with only a few pairs. Not much genetic diversity there. But the CHLs still enjoy a vastly larger genetic pool. I realize that some of that pool is not contiguous though. If that is a real concern have you considered relocation of some to expand the local pools?

Cable

Hello Cable.

I am glad you noted the error. The range of the San Diego Coast Horned Lizard is down to less than 40% of its original range. This is very alarming. It really does not beg the question on what range is needed to "maintain" the species. The fragmentation and loss of habitat is, bottom line, a major problem in gene flow, support and maintenance within populations. If I had a definitive answer on how much is needed, I would have a Nobel Prize. Home range of individuals can provide a base line in habitat utilization by a population. As habitat disturbance/loss increases(Y), quality of life(X) decreases, this is just basic ecology. An example: Foraging area decreases, prey "richness" declines, more energy is used searching for prey items, body mass/weight decreases, reproductive rates decline, population declines, end of story.

The California Condor analogy is not a direct comparison. The range of a bird cannot be compared to a land-locked animal. Birds fly and can extend their range much more readily than can a lizard, or land-locked animal. Corridores are the major factor here, to link other populations. How about artificial corridores ? Do they work? Not all of the time. There are numerous studies that identify this factor. The Condor situation also had a hybridizing factor added with the Andean Condor, a very close relative. Would a similar situation work with horned lizards? Probably not. Land-locked. No corridores. Carrying capacity of habitats involved. Translocations have a high failure rate (97%).

The process of translocation requires a lot of time in just the planning and identification stages. You have to inventory not only the population that is to be moved, but also the population that is in place. The habitats of both have to inventoried. The preditor/prey relationship has to be identified. And so it goes.

The idea that horned lizards occupy an area in uniform distribution is not true. Never has been. On a 100 acre site that could be construed as a CHL habitat, only 7.3 acres are actually fully utilized by the horned lizards. Other areas do not meet their "requirements." Some areas are used only as corridores between populations. Why? Mother Nature. You cannot expand a population overnight. This is one of those evolutionary processes that has to take place. Adaptation. Natural selection. Those kind of things. The problem is, these processes take time. Development happens too rapidly.

The bigger problem is, why do we have to continue to destroy habitats when we could just as easily redevelop blighted areas with infrastructure already in place? Urban sprawl has already been identified as a problem of our own creation.

Yes, we have wildlife reserves that protect species, but what are the long term effects? Are the reserves, parks, and such really that secure? I have seen areas designated as open space and reserves mitigated, sold and developed because of the need for expansion. What about redevelopment? Too costly!

It is a big issue. Quick fixes? No. Better education? It would help greatly! Better planning? Definitely.

Best to you.
Lester G. Milroy III

Nice response Lester!
Even though I have to disagree with parts of it. The picture you paint regarding sprawl and development is not pretty, and to a large extent I agree with that. But I don't think we'll see the Angeles National forest and other large CHL habitat disappear in our lifetimes. I know that some of the CHL habitat is on military installations and although it may see some abuse it likely won't see development.
Why do we continue to develop? Because those that can afford better go after it. Nobody wants to relocate into a rebuilt ghetto. Not many anyways.

Something is always going to get displaced. The bottom line I think is that no lizard, owl, rat or other species is ultimately going to stop "progress." Probably the most we can hope for is to hold on to some parts of the way things are.

Thanks again for your enlightening insights!
More food for thought.

Thanks Cable.

Several of my studies have been on military sites, and as long as those military bases are not closed down by "realignment" the HL populations will remain undisturbed, as will other species. But the bases will also remain closed to the general public. I have nothing but praise for the resource management and environmental offices of the military bases involved in environmental management (might be biased due to my military service too). As for your thinking the Angeles Forest will forever remain a sanctuary, I surely hope so. Areas are continuously sold off due to many factors. I have seen areas sold off that have turned into housing developments and then the home buyers complain about the mountain lions, or the bears, or the coyotes,or other animals that have had their corridors and microhabitats interrupted.

What I have seen and continue to see would really rattle your cage. Or, maybe not. Am I against development? No. I worked as an architect for several years in the building industry. Ethics are the thing I continually question today. Progress is really a logical falicy sometimes. Progress denotes a benefit to all, but does it really? But that is a philosophical discussion.

The horned lizards may indeed still have a fairly "stable" future, but the question remains - for how long? With climate variations increasing, drought cycles increasing, nonnative species out competing native species, will there be time to adapt?

Best to you,
Lester G. Milroy III

I have the permits to do such work and activities. I will need a locality (exact) and do a site review (review the EIR) and other info pertaining to the development. Email the info to me and we can get something started.

Jeff, I have proded you several times to send me a research proposal for the permits you have attempted to obtain, and like I have told you prior, if the proposal meets the criteria for research and conservation needs (which is what Fish and Game and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife require), then I have no problem providing sponsorship. So, send me a written proposal, in the format of what is to be examined, why it needs to be examined, your methodology and proceedures, and a time line. I have explained this to you in the past, when you were so angry at Fish and Game because you need to have sponsorship. Send me a preliminary and we can fine tune it. But, it has to meet specific criteria. Lester G. Milroy III

I live in Santa Barbara, I have searched all over the place just to see one, the color scheme on the Cali HL seems so cool ! I would love to see a Cali HL so I could get some pics or video of them in the wild. I have seen Texas HL's in TX but that is it. I love the TX HL. If anyone knows some sites around me where I could get some pics/vids of HL's I would love to know.
Thanks
- Jim
Go save them HL's Les