Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've heard somewhere that 2010 is gonna be the year of the hognose in the herp industry. Any comments?
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

I can see the growing popularity with this species... Remember how under rated ball pythons were like 15 to 20 years ago??? I see the same trend with hogs...

The thing that is really cool about hogs and what they have in common with the ball pythons of 15 years ago is that they are slowly getting bigger in the hobby and there are tons of genetic morph potential...

As long as these undiscovered morphs fall in the right hands I feel the hognose market will boom something like the ball market did back in the day...

Or maybe I am just hoping it will... LOL

Please delete 90% of this thread!! It is currently taking up WAY too much of the forum I enjoy spending time on.. Do you guys actually think any of us care about your issues with each other? I have read through most of it and nothing any of you have said about each other has altered my opinion of any of you, but imagine how this looks to newcomers and what there are going to think of you!! Take it private,,, please. This is not good!!

... or combos will come out in 2010. Having said that, I know nothing of any yet, but still forsee some cool stuff. The Axanthic anaconda is the start of a great 2010.
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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes
http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/hognose.htm
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view¤t=09-09hognose001.jpg

Darn right!! LOL

Ball pythons produce relatively small clutches of eggs every year. A big female hognose can produce 20 eggs twice a year if she is pushed. Because of the ability to mass produce this species they will never boom like ball pythons did. Their trend will be more like corn snakes or Burmese pythons. Supply far out reaches demand.

Hognose are nothing like corn snakes,nothing at all.Most breeders will tell you that exact same thing. Some say they can get their hogs to push out 20 plus eggs in one clutch ,but the truth is thats a rare occurence.When i bred ball pythons i have always had 100% fertilty and the odds were always in my favor. With hognose snakes things can be more challenging . Nowhere near the same fertility as corn snakes.I have been breeding hognose snakes for ten plus years and my largest clutch was 16 eggs,remember that corn snakes can breed just by looking at each other. Please ask some of the top breeders in the US and they will tell you the same thing,Hogs are nothing like corn,kings,rats,etc

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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

LOL...

They say a picture is worth a 1000 words..

Here's almost 20 clutches of hogs...count the eggs and tell me they don't produce like corns..mine produce actually better than the corns I use to own!! Higher fertility..higher egg count etc.. hands down..hogs are producers.

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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

Does each container have a single clutch in it or have they been mixed up? Do you keep meticulous records of breedings, clutch numbers, hatch rates etc? Are those all hog eggs or corns and I ask because the numbers seem on the low end for corns and about average for what Brent stated.

Either way it's an interesting study, I averaged 23 eggs per clutch per 3 year old female corns but not near that with hogs. About 8 per with ball pythons that were 3 years of age or more. How old were your corns and how big? Any more detail on those breedings?
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

[img]http://extremehogs.com/004bhguyt.JPG/img]

Yes I keep very good records, state of Texas requires me to do this.
Each clutch is from one female...
your eye must be bad because there around 275 eggs betwen 17 clutches with an average clutch size of 15-16.
The 8 clutches are from the year before last..
I had several clutches in the past several years 20 and you can see them in the pics.
This last year I produced around 400 hogs from only 20 females , this is with 2x clutches... this year my collection is more than 2x that so I am expecting 800-1000 hogs this season.
All what I said can be easily verified with TPW since they now keep all that stuff public record LOL
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

the above female laid I believe either 23 total, as you can tell there's 16 in the box and she still quite fat and laying
the tiger hog in the previous post laid a total of 16 or 17 that year..

the last 2 years my hogs have averaged around 25 babies per season per female count 2x clutches.
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

Posted by: JustinMitcham at Fri Jan 22 22:23:03 2010

"this year my collection is more than 2x that so I am expecting 800-1000 hogs this season."

Why would you produce that many hogs??? I do not understand flooding an infant market at this point of the game...
Not very responsible breeding ethics if you ask me...

I have the potential to produce hundreds of dwarf monitors this season but will never consider breeding that many...

I could have also produce over 600 gaboon vipers 2 seasons ago but figured the market was flooded enough with them so I only bred one pair... Didnt even bother breeding them this past season...

"Why would you produce that many hogs??? I do not understand flooding an infant market at this point of the game...
Not very responsible breeding ethics if you ask me..."

I was thinking the same thing!
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Louie Chavez

LOL
Louie.. your the guy helping to create the worlds largest hog farm...

it's hilarious that you condemn me for meeting my customers demand saying "there's not enough room" while at the same time your putting together a mega hognose breeding operation...

Hipocracy at it's finest!!

Geeeze...
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

"Posted by: JustinMitcham at Sat Jan 23 13:21:55 2010 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by JustinMitcham ]

LOL
Louie.. your the guy helping to create the worlds largest hog farm...

it's hilarious that you condemn me for meeting my customers demand saying "there's not enough room" while at the same time your putting together a mega hognose breeding operation...

Hipocracy at it's finest!!

Geeeze..."

By doing a web design? Haha!
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Louie Chavez

oh I'm sorry , so you are against large scale hog farming?? I have no issue with that opinion as long as you don't attack me for mine.
So why you helping this guy if you feel this way..

Personally I have nothing against it as long as he's able to provide for the animals a home and proper husbandry.. I think everyone needs a pet hog..and the fact is these are pets and that is more valuable in the long run than there dollar value.
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

So Louie what's your take on BHB??

They out produce me by a mile...there being unethical and greedy too??

I have no problem with anyone producing hogs in any quantity..supply obviously is no where near demand. If supply outstriped demand they would have no value...demand is what creates every penny of value.. if it is worth 1.00 it is because there is someone willing to give 1.00. If there was no demand they would be worth nothing...and ther FAR FROM THAT...there one of the most expensive snakes in the world period.
So this really isn't about flooding the market this is about MONEY isn't it.
Personally I grew up very poor..I know what it's like to have nothing. I have been breeding hogs before they were popular and will continue to no matter what. If I can't find a proper home for an animal I produce I'll keep it myself.
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

Sorry I didn't answer the corn question..

I had about 20 breeder corns from 2-7 years old. They didn't double clutch as often and I had probably averaged about 20 eggs per female per year. I always seemed to have a female eggbind or slug out. They were very productive. But overall the hogs due better for me and I believe it has to do with my method of care.
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

The hog market WILL be growing..Ya'll are aware its the morphs and money involved that make species evolve before our eyes..
Not to mention whats got more personallity than a hog ??
As stated below its great numbers that see greater diversity..
So I well understand where Justins coming from and what he's doing..He'll see things others won't simply because of the numbers..We hatched 105 borneo pythons in 2009 and there was insufficient market for them but we may very well have hatched a new morph..We'll see in the future..We started in the hogs this past year and love'em..The more that their seen the morely they'll find a new home..Produceable ?? Some individuals will find what clicks and meet with great success while others will only have limited success..2010 being the year, not likely due to the economy but their future is bright..My take on it..
Tim.
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www.serpentim.com

Morphs rarely just pop up randomly in collections... If you look at the majority of morphs in reptiles, they have mostly come from wild caughts that were bred for the first time... You can captive breed a hundred thousand snakes a year and chances are you will not produce a new morph...

Morphs being produced in captivity has very little to do with large numbers being bred... The only time numbers are a factor is when you are producing combo morphs...

In my opinion to create that many hogs in one season is just a display of greediness and self absorbtion... This is especially true because the supply will pass demand... If 400 to 500 were produced last season by him, I bet he is still sitting on close to a quarter of that number... Why whould you want to double up the next season??? It does not add up...

All I know is I have seen big breeders shoot themselves in the foot by over producing...

Do you have photos of your facility??? Production of 1000 hognose snakes is pretty impressive although I do not agree with producing that many animals... I can only imagine how impressive a facility would be to house the adults to produce that many hogs and the hatchling quarters must be a sight to see...

impressive a facility would be to house the adults to produce that many hogs and the hatchling quarters must be a sight to see...

Are you kidding me...

40-50 females can easily produce 1000 hogs.. the babies are kept in 4-6in deli's stacked almost to the ceiling. I don't like keeping babies in drawers because they feed better in delis. At least for me.

Doesn't take a whole lot of room..my hog room is about 300 sqft. and is 1/3 empty...I have room for an additional 50-75 adults on top of what I have.

Seems my results are just too unbelievable for you Gregg...if you like to visit in July and see for yourself your more than welcome.
Evertime I post on this forum same old stuff...
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

Morphs rarely just pop up randomly in collections... If you look at the majority of morphs in reptiles, they have mostly come from wild caughts that were bred for the first time...

You can captive breed a hundred thousand snakes a year and chances are you will not produce a new morph...

Then why do the big breeders consistantly produce new morphs from closed collections or established lines.

sorry I disagree with you strongly...the odds of an albino statistically are on the order of 10,000/1 in reptiles and in humans 17000/1 , I use to do a lot of business with turtle farms who produce million of turtles every year.. out of those farms came many many albino's , hypo and other stuff and this happens every year at every farm from unrelated animals. Call a farm up and ask them..Depending on type of morph the numbers were predictable 1/3000 -1/20,000 depending on type.
Most morphs are in fact CB not wildcaught...not all but the majority.
So What makes cb animals less likly to produce a morph then WC and why?? all lines originated at some point in the wild..all lines contain what it takes to make almost any morph.. most traits are caused by damage or mutations to the DNA. Which is brought out through breeding. So why can you breed hundreds of thousands of snakes in captivity and not produce morphs.. but mother nature which seldom follows breeding plans, proper husbandry,safe enviroments seems to produce them abundantly enough to be found either directly through collection or indirectly through breeding??? The logic and math just isn't there.

Almost all leapard gecko morphs are CB
Almost all ball python morphs are CB
Almost all bearded dragon morphs are CB
Almost all cornsnake morphs are CB
I am sure the same goes for many other lines as well..

Cornsnakes, bearded dragons, leopard geckos, and ball pythons are bred on massive scales they also have the most morphs..that is no fluk.

Morphs being produced in captivity has very little to do with large numbers being bred... The only time numbers are a factor is when you are producing combo morphs...
It's all a numbers game.. more breeding the higher the chance.

In my opinion to create that many hogs in one season is just a display of greediness and self absorbtion... This is especially true because the supply will pass demand... If 400 to 500 were produced last season by him, I bet he is still sitting on close to a quarter of that number... Why whould you want to double up the next season??? It does not add up...

All I know is I have seen big breeders shoot themselves in the foot by over producing...

Actually your very wrong again... and there's no reason to start insulting people over this. So all the breeders who breed on large scales are self absorbed and greedy??
For the 5 year in a row I have sold out 80% of my hogs in the 1st 90-120days after hatch..even this past year, I believe my availability page reflects that and has for a long time.
I am increasing my production to match demand.. If I had that many hogs left believe me they'd be on the classifieds. But I don't really sell much on KS classifieds due to my customer base. This year mayb different...2010 year of the Hogs...it will be here I can tell you that.
Sorry if that offends you..but there's several million reptile keepers in the US alone...not to mention UK, Asia etc.. Plenty of people to do business with for everyone.

Also nowhere did I say I produced 1000 hogs this past season..only around 400. And I am expecting 800-1000 since I more than doubled my adult collection this year. Now if you like to see some pics this upcomming season..no prob.. and you can check my numbers with the Texas since I have to now report every darn hognose I produce.
Man not to be rude...but you seem really threatened by this ..why??
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

Lets be real here... I do not know you personally so stop taking what I post as a personal attack on you... I am not threatend by you because...

1) I am not a big hog breeder competition with you... I have 7 hognose snakes total... LOL... My focus is in other markets like hots, monitors, and incubation products... I really like hogs and just wanted to do a couple of cool projects and make some killer looking hogs...

2) From the looks of things on this forum it seems a lot of people have an issue or two with you... I doubt you will be taking sales away from the better liked breeders out there...

You are wrong when it comes to morphs... Of corse they are born in captivity but the actual gene that causes the mutation is normally from wild caught stock that were bred together... Many of the leaders in morph making will tell you exactly where their stock came from that produced the morph and 90% of the time it was from WC...

You obviously know hogs but it is clear you do not know anything about leopard geckos or ball pythons... Stick to what you know...

Do not get it twisted Justin, I do not have a personal problem with you... What I do have a problem with is the way you are bragging about potentially killing the hognose market, and basically mass producing hogs for no other reason than capital gain and so you can just say you did it...

Your demand is not that high... You still have left over from last season and you say you produced only half of what you expect to produce this season... How is that meeting demand... Sounds and looks like you over produced your demand with only 400 hogs...

Most BP morphs are imported from africa as that, a WC BP morph or were picked out of bags of WC BPs.
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If con is the opposite of pro, does that mean congress is the opposite of progress??

Dog schit Charlie, the aficans are breeding morphs the same as us . wake up.

Interesting, where do they get their stock?
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Interesting, where do they get their stock?
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Try using the internet its magic. you might want to reply to my old posts btw.

I know where they get but it seems you don't. I don't need to respond to them thanks though crouchy!
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

It seems you are not up to date with the ball python market, africa is 'on the ball' do some research.

their backyard......

Pitoon
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Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

What I do have a problem with is the way you are bragging about potentially killing the hognose market, and basically mass producing hogs for no other reason than capital gain and so you can just say you did it...

Where you get this from, there no post of me making this claim..my prices are some of the highest on the net, and you say I am crashing the market.. and if I didn't sell out then where are all my hogs...I ain't advertising..my website says sold out etc..
I have no job except for this and my wife was laid off several months ago lol
My bank account is pretty healthy so??
Prove your accusations..
Your the one who started with the insults calling me greedy and self absorbed..that is personal...my replies have been very courteous to you.

As for who has issues with who.. there always 2 sides to the story...
This thread started off about how productive hogs are and how big the demand..and turned into the same ole groupo of guys using it as an oppurtunity top throw mud.
Funny how everything that is said is quite petty..
from you didn't sell me the snakes I wanted
or you don't know what your talking about
or your crashing the market
breeding too much..
no one likes yop LOL BOO HOO
geeze..

100% JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL CRAP WOW
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

that doesn't know any of you personally.

Here's my 2 cents. Call it what you'd like, but it really seems like people are attacting Justin because he is producing high numbers of Hogs, and some really nice Hogs. Have you ever though maybe his 20% he has left over are maybe animals (morphs/color phases) that are not as highly souht after? If he's selling most of what he's producing 80% is mostly why would it be a bad idea to produce more if he can/does sell them? 10,000's of Hogs are produced a year, he's only producing a fraction that are being produced.

You people asked him questions then he ANSWERES them, and he asks you questions and you don't answer his? Again I am not defending Justin, I don't know any of you my point is this is what it looks like to people that don't know any of you personally. It really looks like you are attacking him. Sure you've had bad relationships or what ever happend. That's for emails, this is a public forum. From how it looks Joe firstly posted about the emails Justin simply replied to it, and even admits he'd rather have seen it stay via email than a public forum.

Justin also said and I quote "If I don't tell them, I'll just keep them" so how is that flooding the market? Flooding the market is mass producing them and then selling them at crazy LOW prices to get them out, he's not doing that, he keeps his price high, and if he doesn't sell them, he'll just KEEP them!

Again I don't know any of you and I don't know what happened between you guys. I'm just pointing out what it looks like an outsider looking in. I just got into Hogs last year, and I hope someday, to produce the quailty that Justin, Don, and Brent produce. I hope someday when my bank allows me to buy animals from them, so that I can keep my genetics clean and divers, and the highest qauilty I can.

Sorry for the rant, it's just how people that don't know any of you see it.

Cheers,
Chad

ohuio

Good point Chad, when i first posted on this forum i had a email from another well known breeder, dissing justin and telling me what a bad guy he is,(i stil have this email with the senders ip address if justin wishes to take legal action ) i think a lot of the previous post are sour grapes and jealousy, how about you guys stick to talking hoggies and leave the jealousy schitt behind you .
ps
can the guy who keeps sendinging me pis of his penis quit it ?
i know who you are and something that small does not impress me .
Leyla xx

Yeah forward me the email...as well as forward it to the abuse department.
My email is Asnakemann@aol.com

many thanks!!

if anyone else has had the same experience please send me a copy of the message and forward it to the abuse department as well.
Thanks very much.
Best Regards,
Justin
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

I had a friend who started the whole hognose morph market.He had many morphs just pop up some that you guys have now.This is the united states of america a free market economy .If you breed it you can sell it .Justin I can not wait till you are produceing 10000 albino morphs then the people who can not afford them will be able to get some.There is no such thing as flooding a market there is only business .I hate people who decide they can control the market between breeders.That is called price fixing and is a federal crime my good men.Those words make me sick.Hogs are not corns and are alot more fun to keep.There are people all over the planet who would be able to have a hog normal or morph when these are wholesaled out of the us .Every one of you fear Justins ability to do so and if he does then he worked hard put his blood and sweat in to it.All of you as well want the big money for your hogs .You are liars if you say different.I do not know Justin but you guys are trying to tell him not to be american you make me sick.By the way how many ball pythons have been imported that are wild cought.He is helping the wild population by provideing Captive born offspring.russia I am sure is taking imamgration applications go home..
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Archie Bottoms

I am sorry for my part in this thread spinning out of control... I apologize to anyone I have insulted or disrespected...

Justin,
Produce 1000 hogs if you like... I do not agree with it but if you can do it, more power to you... I just hope it is done in a responsible manner with good ethics...

Life is too short and our hobby is being chopped away by outside sources... No need to eat the hobby from the inside out...

I have had hognoses producing big clutches. One produce 33 in her first clutch and 17 in the second. One of my extreme red hets produces between 20 and 25 eggs in a clutch. Most don't. I think a lot can be genetics and size. My 2 cents.

I'm not TOUCHING the rest of this thread LOL-but Brent's experience mirrors my own exactly. I've been breeding hogs for more than a decade now, and they are definitely NOT corn snakes.

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert A. Heinlein

Posted by: tracehardin at Fri Jan 22 16:43:24 2010

"Ball pythons produce relatively small clutches of eggs every year. A big female hognose can produce 20 eggs twice a year if she is pushed. Because of the ability to mass produce this species they will never boom like ball pythons did. Their trend will be more like corn snakes or Burmese pythons. Supply far out reaches demand".
________________________________________________________________
Who is producing 40 good eggs from one female in a single season???

They are not nearly as easy to breed/produce as corns and kings are...

One of the collest things about hogs is that anyone can keep them but not everyone can breed them...

Any more "facts" you would like to enlighten us with???

Something against hognoses? These snakes are very cool with great personalities unlike ball pythons (pet rocks). Do you have any hogs or have you had any? Just asking because I don't see how anyone can't see their future looking bright.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Wow, guys calm down. I am not slamming hognoses, I've kept and bred them and Lystrophis for years. I'm just saying they are easy to reproduce, I've been doing it since I was 18, and have larger clutches than most snakes. I would love for the hognoses to take off but I don't think "they'll be as big as ball pythons". People made fortunes off of balls, I never cared for them, the same thing won't be true for Heterodon, unfortunately. If you want to know the next "big" thing you need to look at black head pythons, normals still command a high price and morphs are popping up. They produce small clutches and are hard to hatch. Demand is way higher than supply.

Whats up stranger LOl?

I like blackheads s well but the only problem is producing them to make them th next big thing. I oogle at Tom and Dereks axanthics. Shoot me a PM when you get a chance. I'm still trying to trace those back, no pun intended.
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If con is the opposite of pro, does that mean congress is the opposite of progress??

You want to talk about demand ,I get more inquires everyday about my anacondas,more the you want to know,from all over the world.

This is just the begining of the next big thing in the reptile world.

If hognose were so eazy to produce way did the albino hognose bring top doller for over ten years?

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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

I for one can't wait to get my conda and hypo from you Brent hehe

Juan

Yes it is gonna be, already starting here.
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If con is the opposite of pro, does that mean congress is the opposite of progress??

I would say that is a correct statement!
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Louie Chavez

I could definitely see them being the next big thing. but to be as big as ball pythons I dont know. That would be a bold statement to make this early in the game. And as far as blackhead pythons I think their price will be way to high for them to be the next big thing. They will be really high end for a long time.

ok
Love to bury the hatchet with you Joe and others.I'll call you...one day thats a promise. The others I offer the same. Imagine what kinda progress could occurr if you, me and everyone else just started over here. Only thing between all of us is really BS. I am willing to let it go.
I mean honestly it's like democrats and republicans in here. We can keep beating each other or we have some fun like were supposed to be doing.
Who is in for a nicer , gentler hognose forum??

I mean it's not like I'm asking anyone to hug!!!
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com