Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello everyone hows it going? I am looking to buy a cuban soon and i saw that Bob Siegel has Ehrig bloodline cuban rock's and i was wondering what they were exactly. thanks for your help

They are just Cyclura n. nubila..Cuban Iguana's...Nice but no different than any others...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

thanks Tom. i just bought an Ehrig from Ben Siegel. it will arrive tuesday morning. Ben said he (looks like a male) is about 5 months old and 16-17"
are there any pics available of some of Ehrig's adults?

They're just PLAIN Cuban Iguanas no better or worse than any other ones...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

They are just plain Cubans, but the problem is trying to buy plain pure Cubans. Most everyone out there are selling cuban crossed with caymanensis, lewisi, or some blend of both. I know that Bob Ehrigs cubans are pure as well as David Blairs. You wouldn't believe the lizards Iv'e seen trying to be passed off as pure. Luckily I know what I'm looking at, but most casual hobbiest dont. Just like dog mutts, the crosses still make great pets and some of the biggest tamest cyclura I have seen have been crosses. I personally prefer pure or in the case of lewisi, the purest I can get, but thats just me and dont knock anyone who doesn't.

I'm in total agreement, Mark....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I think this bloodline stuff needs some more commenting on. First off I would say that I doubt that many animals being offered as cubans are crosses beacuse anything you cross it with is worth more as a cross than a pure cuban. If you breed a cuban with a lewisi or a caymaninsis people get more money for calling it a lewisi cross than a cuban. I totaly understand the idea of wanting to get pure animals but when you start calling things "bloodline" what do you have, a brother and sister from Ehrig or Blair or St Pier or Tom or who ever and now you are selling them as "bloodline" how does the buyer know if it is true or not?
If they said they came from Eherig that would be a different story. I think a dealer should either say the breeder they got them from or not say anything about them because any bloodline means nothing past the breeder of the originals. Now Ben is a great guy and a very honest dealer with some top of the line animals { I know because I wholesale many animals to him and he only wants perfect ones}and if someone tells him they are Ehrig bloodline he passes that on to the buyer but there is no way of really knowing for sure and if we let people believe slapping a bloodline monicer on animals increases the value next thing you know it every animal out there will cary whatever bloodline is the most saught after and it will be the one that is for sale.
I have had an idea for a while that some of us bigger breeders should get together maby at daytona and start a regestry of some type and regester each one of our breeder animals with a pedigree as far back as we can go and have our "club" provide pedigree papers with each baby and micro chip them and you can only get the pedigree papers if you are an approved breeder now we can keep better breeding records of our animals and also command top dollar and give buyers a more reliable standard of purety. What do you guys think?
Rob

good points. I disagree about the worth, however. For me, and I only speak for myself, pure is always worth more, always. There is no way to tell what has been crossed with what at this point. There are too many out there and almost no way to get DNA and who will spend money on it. People are buying them now with a verbal guarantee from the seller. The registry book is a good idea but even then some of the breeders cant say with 100% what there animals are. What breeders do you include and who do you exclude. Some guy has a blue hybrid that includes what he thinks is this or that and he gets a really blue female from a seller but doesnt know whats really in it and then breeds them, he has no idea what % of what species is in his cyclura. Zoos couldnt even figure out what was hybrid or pure. I just dont think it is realistic. I wish it was done a long time ago so we do in fact know and that they were a bit more expensive.

jf

David Blair includes a certificate with his lizards and I think I will start doing the same thing. When JF told me about a male caymanensis that was for sale, I had my doubts about the purity of the lizard. Fortunately the seller had the original certificate from Dave Blair who I already knew had pure caymanensis and I bought the lizard who now a large adult and spot on caymanensis. As long as some sort of (hard to forge)documentation can follow the lizard, there can be some kind of proof of purity or origin just like pedigree papers for a dog. As far as the lewisi's are concerned, I feel that those of us that have and work with the high percentage lewisi's should start now with documentaion and certificates for these lizards, treat them as if they were pure, so these high percentage lizards will only produce high percentage offspring. I also think the name of the high percentage lewisi's should be changed to something all breeders can agree upon like "american lewisi" instead of "lewisi cross".

In regards to JF's other comments, I never heard of a hybrid anything being worth more than a pure. Thats silly. Pure species/breeds of almost anything; dogs, horses, rabbits, parrots,ect. always have more value whether its monetary or scientific. There are some new designer dog breeds that may be worth more to some people, but I would have no interest.

I think you guys misinterprited the gist of what I was saying. I was not saying a hybrid lewisi or caymaninsis is worth more than a pure one. I was saying a hybrid lewisi or caymaninsis is worth more than a pure cuban on the open markat today. This is a fact that I am faced with right now. I have an "American Lewisi" (I like that name) and several extra female cubans I could cross them and people will pay $200 for them as lewisi crosses. I would not buy them because I would not buy a baby lewisi without seeing the adults and seeing at least visualy they looked like the "Standard" for a lewisi and that is why I don't breed together now. A pure cuban is worth $75 to $150 depending on the number being sold so that is what I meant by a hybrid is worth more.

The problem with what david blair does is his paperwork only says what it is and that it is from him. I want who the parents are and who there parents are and a pit tag in the animal and it on the certificate.
I have been contemplating pit tagging all of the babyI sell so that in 25 years if I get and adult from someone that has been bought and sold 5 times in 25 years and no one knows its origin I will know if its related to mine or not. If we all did this we could have some refference in the future. it is only $7 ea to pit tag. I am going to start a new topic about the regestry program,
Rob

I like the idea BUT it would be difficult if not impossible to acheive. The pit tags I've used and are using are much too big to be put into a baby Cyclura. Perhaps they make smaller ones? Personally I would like to see DNA testing done at least on some lizards but this is expensive and time consuming. For instance I recently got involved in the SSP plan for Epicrates subflavus and Dino STILL HASN'T got the DNA results back after over 2 months of sending the blood samples off. This is a ZOO trying diligently and with urgency to obtain results. I'm not the one paying for it but I know it's not cheap. It is POSSIBLE AND LIKELY that there are some PURE lewisi in private hands somewhere and it would be nice to know...I'm continually following leads on where I and Life Fellowship sold baby lewis to and where they went from there. It's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to look at a high percentage lewisi and distinguish it from a pure one...I've had as much experience with lewisi as anyone and I can't do it...

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com