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Observations on two groups with light intensity and natural sun

CheriS Sep 19, 2003 07:40 PM

Since we had the imported dragons and know there have not been any related genetics with them to effect growth, we decided to do a few experiments while they were here. In the past I had been told that sun raised babies are not as large as artificial UVB raised babies are by several people. Sandfire ranch also responded when I commented on the size of their 18 month old dragons at a show that they were raised outside and that was why they were smaller.

When they arrived we separated them into their two groups. All the babies were fairly close in size, but one group was a few weeks younger. In the past we knew that most of them we have raised have growth spurt and I was interested to see if ones raised in natural sunlight did.

We wanted to raise them in natural sun as the timing was perfect with great weather in Florida. We also felt this would allow their natural colors and growth to developed as there are also stories that the artificial UVB may cause them to have yellow colors not normal in them. It was not till today when we divided them into 3 groups that I also realized one reptarium was actually in the shade somewhat(filtered through mesh) of the other.

LARGER BABIES:

The babies on the east side closest to the sun are all much larger, we also noted that a few of them spend almost all day in the full sun area of the repartium and rarely retreat to the shade area except to eat. They receive sun over the top, on end and along the side of the reptarium. We have been checking them all day for the past week and the four largest are hardly ever out of the sun. The other four large babies are the smaller of that group, but spend more time in the shaded area with the smallest of those rarely out basking but right after eating for an hour.

Now, the babies that are in the full sun the majority of the time, also are eating constantly, rarely stopping. They go and eat and bask, eat and bask... all day long. The others are in shade more, will eat occasionally and then bask for an hour, then retreat to the side of the repartium where there is shade and stay there. Interesting.... no? They have the choice of going into the shade, they choose not to.

THE SMALLER BABIES:

Granted they are a few weeks younger, but still do not show the growth rate the babies facing the full sun do. They are on the west side of the larger babies reptarium and as such are shaded more during the day along that side by the other reptarium, except for late afternoon sun which covers about 1/2 the reptarium from the end. They remain the majority of the day in shade around 95F, only in the sun later in the day and they also are nibblers during the day, but big eaters in the early evening. The larger babies have to have their salads refilled 2-3 times a day, the smaller ones do not. Initially I thought it was just their way, till I noted this week they actually have less full sun all day than the others.

We have now divided them into 3 groups of 5 each and I am going to rearrange them so all have more sunlight exposure than they have had in the past and see if there is a change in eating and growth.

All at 5PM are put under normal household bulbs inside for their final feeding and the next 3 hours, this is when the smaller group is eating better and more active.

I am more convinced than ever that the light intensity has a greater bearing on appetite and growth than the UVB (still important) is having. Even in somewhat shade of another repartium they are still getting more UVB than they would under the best of artificial UVB lights, but not as much light intensity and after checking them hourly this week, we know it is the larger babies that are in the full sun more which we believe is sparking their constant hunger. On rainy days when they could not be out in the sun, they all were under household bulbs for heat and light intensity (we use director household bulbs) and all were eating good all day, either salads, pellets or crickets

We can not ignore the fact they babies that are in full sun more are the ones that are growing faster and eating more... the question is why? Is it the UVB or the light intensity, inside under the same light intensity for the last feeding, they all eat the same..... which is a lot, we think it is the light intensity... once I move them around and we recheck them in a few weeks, lets see what changes occur

Replies (9)

griffinej5 Sep 19, 2003 08:46 PM

Interesting.
I have kinda done this on a small scale. If I put a dragon outside on the center of the deck and throw a towel over one side of the reptarium, they the most. If I put it up against the side so that two sides are against something, they do eat more than inside, but not as much as if all the sides are free. Inside the house they eat the least.
Your's is more scientific then mine, but I have noticed this even with moving a single dragon. I've tried it with four, and it always had the same results.

Mattman Sep 19, 2003 09:12 PM

Interesting. Was wondering what you were studying, learning, and going to share with us all, lol Which sure is appreciated by all. I keep some of mine in three foot melamine some in four. Same 100 watt powersuns over the basking spot (106 surface temps), and regular GE fluorescent the whole lengths. Each cage has a fully shaded hide on the far wall from the basking spot. Well, the hide in the three footers is of course about 10-15 degrees hotter then the four footers hide. They all hide about the same time during the day, about 2-2.5 hours I would say out of a 14 hour light period. The ones in the three footers eat more and more regularly. I was thinking maybe it was just the constant hotter body temps in my situation that was causing their metabolisms to go a bit faster thus eating more, and defecating sooner after, and growing faster. Seems in my situation the temps are playing a role as well. Since they both are receiving the same light only one is a bit cooler during the day. Maybe in you situation this is playing a role as well. Maybe not as big as mine being from the same parents though
-----
Mystical Dragons

beardiedragon Sep 19, 2003 09:42 PM

did you keep track of the cage temps as well?
I have noticed that the babies I have placed in hotter enclosures seem to eat more and grow faster. they have also become more aggressive eaters. BTW they get no UV.
-----
Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

CheriS Sep 19, 2003 10:16 PM

in the full sun they are 98-115 on the probe surface area and the shade is around 80-90, when it is over 85 we mist them and also provide a pool of fresh water.

I checked several times today and the ones on the west side of the other reptarium is about 92-95, with full sun 96-115, but in a lesser area. Shade is staying pretty constant and they do not need misted as much.

When it was raining for several days, they could only go out a few hours, so while inside their temps were staying 94-96 but bright intensity and they were eating just as well.

dynamohum1 Sep 19, 2003 11:08 PM

While you are experimenting you may want to look more at photoperiod and less at uvb. Chickens can be grown at an incredible rate in 24/7 full light and feeding constantly. Try that with a bearded and I think you would be shocked. A bit extreme, but photoperiod and heat may be more the key to rapid growth than uvb, although uvb will play a part in overall health.
-----

CheriS Sep 20, 2003 10:34 AM

I don't think that a bearded dragon's health could take something like that. They need a solid, cooling rest period to sleep each night.

One method tried on the yellow fungus that did work was to raise temperatures over 100F for 24 hours. It is known that one type of the fungus can not survuve in that temp over 16-20 hours. But even with a CHE, and the owner given fluids all that time period, the dragon still got very dehydrated. It was not something I could recommend for someone that was not monitoring closely an animal and only in extreme medical need like this one had.

bisendow Sep 19, 2003 11:24 PM

Hello! That is a really cool observation you did. I love it when people actually devote real important time to taking care of their lizards in the best way possible. Do you think that the size difference has to do with the UV spectrum of the sunlight? We know that beardies use sunlight to aid with the absorption of Vitamin D3 correct? Maybe the larger, faster growing dragons are utilizing the sun more EFFICIENTLY than the smaller ones? I think it is correlated to their vitamin/calcium intake, and how they use that with the natural sunlight. From my own personal experiences, I have found that Beardies tend to eat more and have larger, more solid stools when they get regular sunlight. I live in Sacramento CA, and during the summer our lizards get 8-10 hours of sunlight a day, and they are doing wonderful.

-Paul
Dragons, Uros, and Geckos. =)

CheriS Sep 20, 2003 08:33 AM

dragons were smaller..... it made no sense to me, dragon(vitticeps) in the wild are avg 22-24 inches. We know they are most active in the wild at temps of high 70's to mid 90's and when over that they disappear into the forest or hide areas, yet they grow and thrive to a nice size with spending 60% of their time sunning.

It didn't add up that they were becoming smaller in the US, because some we were checking were natural sun raised outside. When we inquired about it, we were told it was due to they are sun raised or raised outside and this effects their growth rate, at 18 months many were the size of normal 7-8 month olds, that they were all brumated in the winter (in California).

In fact, my opinion is that by access to natural sun, they should grow larger, there is no doubting that the ones that stay in the sun more during the day are the larger babies..... I do not know if it is because they are just naturally larger they need more heat/light or if they are larger because they are getting more heat/light.

That is why I am going to switch them around now and put the smaller ones on the east side closer to the sun and monitor them. We have keep gram weight charts on each dragon, in each group/location. Although there are a variey of sizes in each group, the ones on the east side now are significantly larger and better eaters. I do not think it is the UVB, even in the shade the UBV they are receiveing is 2-5 times greater than the best artificial lights produced for inside use. You can not dulpicate that indoors, you can give a concentrated area of UVB, but they move away from the light source and they are getting no UVB, outside they are still receiving it in greater quanity that they are inside directly under a light.

This is the measuments of UVB on a typical sunny day:

Time UVB(uWatts/cm2)
In direct sun
7 am: 12
8 am: 74
9 am: 142
10 am: 192
11 am: 233
12 am: 256
1 pm: 269
2 pm: 262
3 pm: 239
4 pm: 187
5 pm: 131
6 pm: 61
7 pm: 17

In shade
1 pm: 54
4 pm: 30
5 pm: 22

Now, knowing that reptisun 5.0 tubes deliver 10-14 uWatts/cm2 or that MV (PowerSun, Active UV heat) deliver 30-50 you can see that even in shade areas they are getting as much or more UVB outside as artificial lights inside. I think this also has to put to rest the question if they are getting too much UVB from a mercury vapor light..... no they are not, not even close to what they have lived with in the wild for thousands of years. Measurement of UVB on the forest floor in Australia is still over 60 uWatts/cm2.

Its not even UVB that was my main question, I feel comforatable enough that whether by light or supplement, dragons can get sufficient UVB to produce the D3 they need, I think that is a given....... but are we cutting off something in them that effects growth by only using supplements OR is the UBA and light intensity what controls that?

I could carry it further, and maybe someone will want to, but I don't have the heart to stick the little things and get blood panels. If I keep several, I will change some over to three control groups, but I want to be sure I am starting with like size siblings to begin with. Right now they are not cooperating with that There are 8 that are all the size size, weight with identical husbandry, but the other 7 seem set on doing their own thing and those are the seven that were on the east side closest to the sun and with the most exposure to it daily.

I feel that is tellin us something, especially when we can chart the larger ones by size in relation to time spent in full sun.

reiko Sep 20, 2003 11:23 AM

>>Since we had the imported dragons and know there have not been any related genetics with them to effect growth, we decided to do a few experiments while they were here. In the past I had been told that sun raised babies are not as large as artificial UVB raised babies are by several people. Sandfire ranch also responded when I commented on the size of their 18 month old dragons at a show that they were raised outside and that was why they were smaller.
>>
>>When they arrived we separated them into their two groups. All the babies were fairly close in size, but one group was a few weeks younger. In the past we knew that most of them we have raised have growth spurt and I was interested to see if ones raised in natural sunlight did.
>>
>>We wanted to raise them in natural sun as the timing was perfect with great weather in Florida. We also felt this would allow their natural colors and growth to developed as there are also stories that the artificial UVB may cause them to have yellow colors not normal in them. It was not till today when we divided them into 3 groups that I also realized one reptarium was actually in the shade somewhat(filtered through mesh) of the other.
>>
>>LARGER BABIES:
>>
>>The babies on the east side closest to the sun are all much larger, we also noted that a few of them spend almost all day in the full sun area of the repartium and rarely retreat to the shade area except to eat. They receive sun over the top, on end and along the side of the reptarium. We have been checking them all day for the past week and the four largest are hardly ever out of the sun. The other four large babies are the smaller of that group, but spend more time in the shaded area with the smallest of those rarely out basking but right after eating for an hour.
>>
>>Now, the babies that are in the full sun the majority of the time, also are eating constantly, rarely stopping. They go and eat and bask, eat and bask... all day long. The others are in shade more, will eat occasionally and then bask for an hour, then retreat to the side of the repartium where there is shade and stay there. Interesting.... no? They have the choice of going into the shade, they choose not to.
>>
>>THE SMALLER BABIES:
>>
>>Granted they are a few weeks younger, but still do not show the growth rate the babies facing the full sun do. They are on the west side of the larger babies reptarium and as such are shaded more during the day along that side by the other reptarium, except for late afternoon sun which covers about 1/2 the reptarium from the end. They remain the majority of the day in shade around 95F, only in the sun later in the day and they also are nibblers during the day, but big eaters in the early evening. The larger babies have to have their salads refilled 2-3 times a day, the smaller ones do not. Initially I thought it was just their way, till I noted this week they actually have less full sun all day than the others.
>>
>>We have now divided them into 3 groups of 5 each and I am going to rearrange them so all have more sunlight exposure than they have had in the past and see if there is a change in eating and growth.
>>
>>All at 5PM are put under normal household bulbs inside for their final feeding and the next 3 hours, this is when the smaller group is eating better and more active.
>>
>>I am more convinced than ever that the light intensity has a greater bearing on appetite and growth than the UVB (still important) is having. Even in somewhat shade of another repartium they are still getting more UVB than they would under the best of artificial UVB lights, but not as much light intensity and after checking them hourly this week, we know it is the larger babies that are in the full sun more which we believe is sparking their constant hunger. On rainy days when they could not be out in the sun, they all were under household bulbs for heat and light intensity (we use director household bulbs) and all were eating good all day, either salads, pellets or crickets
>>
>>We can not ignore the fact they babies that are in full sun more are the ones that are growing faster and eating more... the question is why? Is it the UVB or the light intensity, inside under the same light intensity for the last feeding, they all eat the same..... which is a lot, we think it is the light intensity... once I move them around and we recheck them in a few weeks, lets see what changes occur
-----
reiko
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