Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello all. Im all set to purchase two az mt kings from ryan hoyers site. I love how he has all the details on each individual snake and what they are eating, here is my question, Im looking for as small a snake that is eating FT. I want it small as im starting off in 10 gallon tanks for the first year or so until they outgrow it. He has a bunch of pyros that were hatched in august of 2009 and also august of 2008. How much bigger can one assume the 2008 would be compared to the 2009? do they grow that fast? also, has anyone had any experience with the santa rits locality? I know one of these guys is gonna be a santa rits, and i may choose a flagstaff for the other, but have not decided yet. and also i dont care wether male or female as i have no intention of ever breeding. thank you

Santa Rita pyros are probably the most common locale available. It's also a safe bet that most of the generic pyros out there have at least some Santa Rita blood in them. Even some of the most line-bred pyros like the Baubels and Applegates can be traced to stock collected in the Santa Ritas.

That being said, you will find no difference in the behavior of a Santa Rita pyro to a Flagstaff area pyro.

It is impossible to tell how much bigger a 2008 hatch pyro will be compared to a 2009. It all depends on the feeding habits of the '08. As a general rule, pyros seem to grow a lot slower than most kingsnakes and can be fussy feeders. Especially the young ones. Great snakes, but I don't consider the young ones to be a great beginner snake.

Greg

Wild caught Santa Rita pyro

Rogue River Reptiles

I have four pyros from Ryan myself. (Two pairs from different locales). They are 07 and 08 hatches and there is a HUGE difference in the size of the males compared to the females they are paired with. As stated, this is mostly because the females were, and still are, finicky eaters and the males are pigs!! Awesome snakes though and I am very happy with them. Pyros are "slow growers" in a sense but my males grew VERY fast because they eat so much.

Joe,

I have the same experience with the growth rates of males and females. Males seem to take off in size, while my females drive me nuts with their eating habits. I have 2 '07 females that I won't breed this coming year because they are too small.

Greg

well, after thinking it over, I have decided to only get one pyro at this time. no need to rush into two of them right now. I have a 1.5 yo corn snake that will eventually need to go into a 30 or 40 gallon tank and at that point my pyro can move into his 20 gallon long tank, at that time i will think about another snake. Besides, I still have my desert king that needs to come out of cooling withen the next month, I dont want to bite off more then I can chew. Im not gonna make a mistake of taking in two more snakes now when i only need one. I will raise this pyro, and if i enjoy him then i will explore the possibility next year(2011) of getting another. I think three snakes in total is more then enough for me.

My God!! A reasonable person!! HAHAHA. Probably a good move one your part if that is how you feel. Wish I had your will power. Let us know what happens.-----Joe.

yikes...after thinking again, im gonna get the two.. I blame Ryan for all of this. he has such awsome looking snakes and i cant decide between the two that i love. so im getting both... so maybe im not too reasonable...LOL..no willpower...i wont forgive my self if i let one of them go.. I will manage, they will be taking care of. im not worried about it... heheheh..im driving myself nuts...LOL

I think you are doing the right thing, when you can raise one successfully, then add more as your schedule allows. It is a wise man that can hold his "wants" at bay. When you feel you "need" more, that's when the sickness has taken hold, and brother, there ain't no cure, lol!

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Todd Hughes

Greg, I feel your pain. I am in the same boat. I have them in brumation together (pairs) and hope the boys do not take advantage of the little girls too early! LOL.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an already feeding pyro to a beginner (why not start out with the best?). As far as size, an '09 can often be larger than an '08 due to feeding habits. My largest female was very much undersized when she was younger (just wouldn't eat much) and then had a good feeding year and is now about as big as a pyro can get. I think this is a very common characteristic of pyros. With pyros, don't stress when they refuse meals. They will miss meals and then make up for it later and this doesn't seem to hurt them one bit as long as they have access to room temp or less. Feed them as much as they'll take in the spring within reason. That will set the stage for the year. If you feed them in a separate container, put a little water in with the mouse. Whether they have access to water in their caging or not, you'll find them drinking the water and for whatever reason that seems to stimulate them to eat and afterward poop (nice, huh?). Most of mine follow this routine, which is nice because there is a lot less spot cleaning of the cages required. One last thought: Get a male and a female because your thoughts of never wanting to breed them could likely change in the future.
snake adventures

Please do not take offense, but you folks should really read your own posts and act like somebody else wrote them.

Pyros, grow as fast and as consistant as any other kingsnake. Why would they be different? Except if you put them in conditions that are stressful to them. Then of course they can have problems.

What it sounds like from reading your posts is, many of you have marginal conditions. So your pyros perform marginally.

It appears that some here hope the snakes fit their cages, and if not, they say the snake is this or that way. The reality is, pyros are kingsnakes, just like anyother kingsnake.

Of course they behave a little different because they come from a little different habitat, so they do the same things other kings do, just ever so slightly different.

The actual performance is the same as anyother king, they can and do mature in under two years if conditions are supportive, they can and do multiclutch and will for a very long time(plus 14 years in my experience) And eat like pigs, from day one.

Please think about this, why would any snake not feed well or grow well when young?????

Then why would a snake not feed well, then feed when it is given water? Also why would a snake need a bowl of water to help take a crap?

All of those things are a direct link to your problems, its not the snake thats the problem its the way they are being kept, not the way they are designed to be. Cheers

I would love to have a discussion about this with you Frank, but your past history on these forums prove that having a discussion with you is impossible.

I respect your experience and your viewpoints. You could be a great teacher, if you brushed up on your social skills.

Greg Huston

Your post is funny, instead of addressing the problem, you protect yourself by changing the subject. You make it about something in the past, or how someone says something. And not about what is said, currently and at this time and about this subject. What your doing is clearly an attempt to avoid the problem at hand.

The truth is, I will not suffer and you will not suffer, only the snakes suffer, and all because you would rather devert the post, then have a conversation.

But your right, I do not now, or have in the past, put up with your approach to learning. For instance, you say you respect me, yet your post is counterdicts that. Your statements appear to be BS. they are only to make you sound like the good guy and make me the bad guy.

And yes, I do not mind being the bad guy if it results in one individual snake benefiting from my posts/threads. You see, I could care less about your respect. And if you want my respect, it would be based on you learning and improving the captive conditions of snakes. Their benefitual results is worthy of respect, not whether you respect/like me or not.

In my case, I am an equal oppertunity learner, I will learn from those I respect, those I do not respect, my friends, and my enemies. To learn is not about friends or respect.

In this case, to learn benefits your/our snakes, therefore should not pertain to liking or respect.

More truth, instead of thinking about how I say something, it would be respectful if you tried to apply it to the benefit of our captive snakes. Good luck

I find that if you listen to Frank, you can learn, but if you dis the teacher, you get schooled, lol! he's right, if you allow for the choices, they will choose, if you don't they can't.
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Todd Hughes

FR, this maybe true. Both my males and females were kept under the same conditions and the males are twice as big and ate twice as much. Obvioiusly the conditions were better suited for the males then the females. Both are very healthy and I am not complaining, just stating observations to the OP. Hopefully their pyros grow at the same fast rate. Mine did not.

Hi, and thats exactly the point.
Now take a look at why. Of course you see your results, I will not argue that. What your not seeing(not addressing) is what is causing your results.

My questions in my original reply still stand, how about attempting to answer them.

Like why would any individual snake grow slow and not feed readily. I hope you understand in nature, they take prey when availible, they do not mope around or act finicky. If they did, they would be very dead, and very quickly. They attack prey, even very small hatchlings.

I am sure many here have field observations that would support that. Heres one of my favorites. I was walking up a creek, when I heard a leopard frog panic call from under a rock. I flipped the rock and a new born watersnake had an adult leopard frog by the foot. hahahahahahahahaha. There is no way that snake could take that frog, but it was up for an attempt. And your baby pyros are doing WHAT? Think about it.

This epiphany occurred to me about 45 years ago when I was out in the field. I saw a whiptailed lizard, running like crazy, zig zaging all over, then it ran up and bounced off my foot, then an adult California stripe whipsnake, crashed off my foot and continued to chase the lizard. All the while at home I had a california whipsnake that was a very reluctant feeder. Hmmmmmmmmmm I realized, it surely was not a reluctant feeder because it was a whipsnake. It was reluctant because I was not providing something a ecto therm needed. In this case, I provided more heat and the snake ate everything and anything and all the dang time. To a point I turned it loose because it ate toooooo much(compared to my other snakes)

The point was very clear to me. All these snakes consume as much as they can, grow as fast as they can and outgrow the dangerous baby stage where they are prey for many many predators. They cannot afford to hesitate or grow slow. Even if there were no predators, individuals that grew faster(better conditions, more food) would out compete the slower going individuals. This is nature at is most basic.

Why would they be different in captivity? This one is very simple. If offering water allows a snake to feed, its dehydrated. If offering water helps a snake eliminate waste, then the snake is dehydrated. That is plain and simple. If your pyro coils in the water bowl, its doing so because its dehydrated. I can keep going, but you get the point.

So instead of changing the way you keep your snakes, you say, the snakes the problem. Well it is, pyros dehydrate easier then a getula. But not faster then a baby milksnake. And both dehydrate much faster then a pit. or crot.

Once said pyro gains mass(in your case, slowly) the mass to surface area ratio changes drastically. A baby pyro has a huge surface area to mass ratio, as it grows, it reverses. As the snakes gains mass, it can overpower the degree of dehydration, but, its still not a good thing. As indicated above, pyros and many other species are a bit pourous skinned and dehydrate easily compared to other thick skinned snakes.

I could make some wild guesses, those with baby pyro problems, are those with open type cages and no moisture boxes, and/or tight hides. But then there is a million different combinations of conditions that will cause dehydration. But the symtoms are very consistant.

So what gets me, why I cannot take it anymore, hahahahahahaha is, the only thing wrong here is, confusing symtoms with character traits. Some are voicing symtoms and calling them species traits. In this case, pyros do indeed have thin skin and dehydrate must more readily then thicker skinned species. But they do not grow slower. Some of the fastest growing kings I ever had were pyros.

The solution is, instead of not recomend keeping or not keeping pyros because their problematic, how about making sure making sure all of your snakes are not dehydrated.

To be more clear, a pyro is akin to the canary in a coalmine. Its only the first to show outward signs, as the condition is effecting all your snakes.

Please do not feel bad, as most captive snakes have some degree of chronic dehydration. Good luck

"FR, this maybe true. Both my males and females were kept under the same conditions and the males are twice as big and ate twice as much. Obvioiusly the conditions were better suited for the males then the females. Both are very healthy and I am not complaining, just stating observations to the OP. Hopefully their pyros grow at the same fast rate. Mine did not."

Joecop, have you ever considered that maybe males deal with subpar conditions better than females?????? Not saying that it's true but I think it's a valid question to ask.

>>"FR, this maybe true. Both my males and females were kept under the same conditions and the males are twice as big and ate twice as much. Obvioiusly the conditions were better suited for the males then the females. Both are very healthy and I am not complaining, just stating observations to the OP. Hopefully their pyros grow at the same fast rate. Mine did not."
>>
>>Joecop, have you ever considered that maybe males deal with subpar conditions better than females?????? Not saying that it's true but I think it's a valid question to ask.

Snakes are individuals.......period.....Just as some kids grow faster than other and some adults are taller than others....Then there are giants and dwarfs......

I keep my 1.1 in the same conditions and the female is larger than the male......and they have never stopped feeding except when I stopped them for brumation (which isn't necessary according to some) but that's another argument/discussion.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

About hibernation, its not necessary for us to force that on them. But it is necessary that the snakes work from a cool base.

This is a point that may be missed. Its not the cold all the time part of hibernation that supports reproduction. Its the ability to conserve energy needed to reproduce. Then cool areas with the choice of suitable heat, is what supports reproduction.

In nature, in much of the natural range of kings, they do not hibernate "solidly" like many keepers force them to do.

Recently there have been some observations of what goes on inside winter dens in the northern parts of the U.S. What was a surprise was, the snakes were active in the dens, that is, they constantly moved around.

What I see here in nature is, denning snakes rarely feed in the winter, But it does happen on occasion. Also, reproductive snakes rarely feed until after they finish with the reproductive process. But again, on ocassion they do.

Most individuals in nature do not return to the reproductive areas(dens) unless their condition supports reproduction. So you would not expect them to require food.

In captivity, low base temps in the upper fifties to the lower seventies is needed for reproductive individuals, with the ability to gain heat as needed, works wonders and if supported with additional food, multiclutching is normal.

This also occurs in nature. All the snakes we find work from a base of cool, and move to heat as needed. This is at any and all times of the year.

Of course there are places where it gets so hot that cool temps are not available. In that case, reproduction stops completely and foraging is the activity of the day. If it gets too hot, then snakes again shut down.

So no, even natural snakes do not actually hibernate(cease activity) not the breeders. And do everything in their power to avoid that. They move to the areas with the most available heat for as long as they can.

About pyros and sexual dimorphism. In most cases, the larger individuals are males, that is true. But not in all cases, two of the largest individual pyros I have found in the field have been females. But large females are rare to find. Consider, the females spend very little time on the surface.

Females of many species behave differently then males. They do seem to be the sex that determines where the colonies will be located. That is, females pick the sites as to where they live, reproduce and lay eggs. The males follow the females to these sites.

Which offers the hint that males have a much more generalized ability to exsist. That is, they do not need the exact requirements of females(in nature)THE FEMALES SET THE CONDITIONS.

When folks talk about longevity, I like to request those folks to check the sexes. How many females set longevity records????? In fact, how many females even live half as long as males in captivity?? Yet in nature, females seem to live as long as males.

This is going to sound bad and it is, but I developed my husbandry protocals for the females and the females only. Males, awwwwwww they can sit in a box in the corner, hahahahahahahahahahaha Its true, if you tuned your husbandry towards the females and offered conditions where they blossomed then you would not see the males dominating them.

Normally, under suitable conditions, both sexes grow at the same rate, then the females cycle, and turn their energy to reproduction, while the males continue to grow.

Again, what happens here is, WE the keeper sets a regime and then say, these do this and that. I believe it would be more accurate to allow them the ability to pick their own regime and then tell you what they are capable of doing.

In this case, if female pyros are not progessing so well, then I would adjust my husbandry to address that. Cheers

This is a quality FR post.

For the record, I currently have 4 female pyros. All four are healthy. Two have them have continued to eat through the winter, while two shut down early. Two of the females will often refused frozen/thawed, but will take live or pre-killed mice without hesitation.

Some of my pyros are in sweater box style set-ups with a temp gradient, warm wet hide, warm dry hide, a cool dry hide, and a substrate that they can burrow in. The others are in tanks with similar set-ups.

I have been keeping pyros for about 10 years. I don't consider myself a newby to it, but I definitely don't consider myself to be an expert either. I know that I can do more than I am to support their needs, and I have learned quite a bit from what Frank has taught us over the years here. I do know that my experiences are similar to others that have kept pyros for decades.

One thing that I have learned from Frank is that we tend to provide the minimum conditions possible for our snakes to survive and breed. Why not step it up a notch and provide conditions that they can thrive under? Hard to do if your keeping 50 snakes. Maybe some of us should scale it back and just keep a few under optimum conditions. Food for thought.

Greg

>>This is a quality FR post.
>>
>>For the record, I currently have 4 female pyros. All four are healthy. Two have them have continued to eat through the winter, while two shut down early. Two of the females will often refused frozen/thawed, but will take live or pre-killed mice without hesitation.
>>
>>Some of my pyros are in sweater box style set-ups with a temp gradient, warm wet hide, warm dry hide, a cool dry hide, and a substrate that they can burrow in. The others are in tanks with similar set-ups.
>>
>>I have been keeping pyros for about 10 years. I don't consider myself a newby to it, but I definitely don't consider myself to be an expert either. I know that I can do more than I am to support their needs, and I have learned quite a bit from what Frank has taught us over the years here. I do know that my experiences are similar to others that have kept pyros for decades.
>>
>>One thing that I have learned from Frank is that we tend to provide the minimum conditions possible for our snakes to survive and breed. Why not step it up a notch and provide conditions that they can thrive under? Hard to do if your keeping 50 snakes. Maybe some of us should scale it back and just keep a few under optimum conditions. Food for thought.
>>
>>Greg

It's not that hard to do if you keep 50 snakes and have the income and know how to support them.......Even though I am using those OLD drawer enclosures Frank and Applegate used many moons ago...They are working and my snakes are thriving more than I have ever seen them thrive...could the thrive more...Of course they can....and....I have made some modifications to the drawer enclosures and am carrying over the idea of these enclosures into every enclosure I build...even into a rack system....I'll share pics when that is done...I think it'll be a hit, but I'm going to keep it under wraps for now.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

John,

My post wasn't aimed at you, but at all of us. Not saying you cant have quantity without sacrificing quality of care, just saying its easier to provide quality care to one snake than it is to provide it to 100.

I know you bought some of David Weymouth's old Applegate style enclosures when you got back into the hobby, and if memory serves me right, you built some of your own too. From what I understand you have purchased about 50 snakes in the last year and a half or so, and have taken 30 or so more on breeding loan. How many are in the Applegate enclosures, and how many are in tubs?

I'm definitely interested in hearing about what you are building now. Multilevel and group housing interest me. Someday, when I feel like I have the time, I'd like to get work on something unique.

>>John,
>>
>>My post wasn't aimed at you, but at all of us. Not saying you cant have quantity without sacrificing quality of care, just saying its easier to provide quality care to one snake than it is to provide it to 100.
>>
>>I know you bought some of David Weymouth's old Applegate style enclosures when you got back into the hobby, and if memory serves me right, you built some of your own too. From what I understand you have purchased about 50 snakes in the last year and a half or so, and have taken 30 or so more on breeding loan. How many are in the Applegate enclosures, and how many are in tubs?
>>
>>I'm definitely interested in hearing about what you are building now. Multilevel and group housing interest me. Someday, when I feel like I have the time, I'd like to get work on something unique.

Greg....
I know you weren't aiming that towards me man....
I just wanted to make a point that some folks can achieve quality care for many snakes.....

For your questions....I have enough Applegate style encloures to house 20 adults. I do not keep hatchling snakes in these enclosures and I have 25 or so of them that are not in these enclosures. They are on my adjustable rack......And feeding like crazy due to the choices they are given in their small but accommodating tubs.....Some of my 6 month old mexicana are over 18 inches already.......
.......I am working on a rack system that will have the similar options of the drawer, Applegate, Retes enclosures in each tub.....I am building something that will set in the bottom of the tub and will create a subfloor. These inserts will also achieve wet, hot, cool, dry, damp, light, dark and combinations of each within each of the 72 rubbermaid tubs I have in two rack systems (36ea).....I will surely share them when I get a few completed and functioning the way the snakes want....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Great information Frank.....It does make me want to try a few things out that I have been contemplating and absorbing......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Not sure. I try my best to give the best conditions I can though. Cool side high sixties to low seventies, hot side 88-90 or so, humid hide, dry hot hide, cool hide, clean water. I even built stacks for them, but not because FR had done it, I did not even know he did at the time. I just was going on what I have observed while herping. Maybe this year the females will eat like crazy and catch up!! We shall see.

That's all you can do. Do the best with what you have and learn and apply as we go. It's when you stop learning and trying that people fail!

Scott

Heres the point, its called useable conditions, which means, if they do use it, its not useable. Its not the exact temps or even the temps. Its creating the ability to make those tools useful.

Which means, if they(any they) don't use them, they are wrong.

It doesn't matter if the temps are exact or nearly exact. If they do not use them then your task is to create conditions they will use. Stacks are only one tool and like any tool, they can be and often are used wrong. In fact, stacks are very species specific and even culturally specific. That is, in some areas pyros really use local conditions the way stacks are designed for, in other locals, pyros may not use them. They do the same thing in a different way.

In most cases, the "problem with pyros is dehydration" Pyros and other species like mexican milks(neonates) are extemely sensitive to dehydration. Consider, most likely 99% of all captive snakes are to some degree dehydrated.

As I mentioned in a post below, I direct my attention to the females of any species, not the males. This is how I achieve first breedings. Males are, well males, not a problem.

With varanids, females are totally totally less robust and if not supported quickly perish. Hence the abundance of males in the classifieds. But if you direct your attention to them. They actually thrive, multiclutch and outlive the males.

In otherwords, what is good for the males may not be good for the females, but what is good for the females, is really good for males. Cheers

Well i agree with FR and anybody who has any problems with him should look at the snakes and not themselves. Or is that the other way around.

Either way, FR is the most knowledgabl person here and we should all have some respect if you want to learn anything.

HA HA HA!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Great, why is it my post always end up like this? LOL.....so, how is the weather today? HEHEHEHHEHEHEHE

I am not saying that he doesn't know more. I AM saying that my females pyros do not eat as much as my males and are not as big for their age. Period. Others here have had the same experience. Rainer, you cannot sit here and tell me that you don't have some snakes that just don't eat as much as the others do? Come on, I think ALL of us have had this happen. Snakes also have different personalities too. ALL of my males snakes are bigger (kings) then my females are and this probably has something to do with it also. It's not like my female pyros are not eating, they eat, they just refuse food on occassion when the males do not.

Social skills aside, I welcome any tips, even if they come with insults and condescension. I can always make evaluations of the "helpful" advice and assimilate what I find valuable and disregard some things as the ramblings of the dilusional. I am of the opinion that if those of us keeping and breeding snakes were to meet in person, rather than through the posts on this forum, there might be much friendlier conversations. Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe the only thing we have in common is the snakes.
snake adventures

The moderator deleted my other post. I complemented your pyros and the photos. They are awesome and show that you must have done something right. If someone never has trouble with getting pyros to feed, they are either not telling the truth or have a magic potion or whatever.
snake adventures

Thanks and I agree with you 100 percent. Montane kings are a little different and there is not a single person on this forum, tons of experience or not, who can convince me otherwise.

Thats the problem here, some think its all about right or wrong. With keeping animals, the results are right or wrong. The rest is just talk.

About condescending. I looked it up, "condescending" (adj) ostensibly gracious but animated by snobbery. Anyway, the word gracious or graciously is used, and I am not sure if that word ever applied to me!!!!!!!hahahahahahahaha

I am strait foreword, blunt, Raw if you will. I assume you are an equal, a peer, again, if you will. To me, its only when you wiggle and squirm and babble all about how something is said and not WHAT IS SAID, that I get the feeling you may not be an equal.

You see, these forums are about the animals(i could be wrong) things like friends and all such are something that may or may not occur depending on what common ground we have. To assume you or anyone is my friend is odd to me. Your not. and there is nothing wrong or right about it.

My friends are my friends and it does not depend on how they keep their animals or even if they have animals.

To think this place is about friends is odd to me and a bit needy. I have some friends here, some acquaintances, and the rest are fellow snake keepers. Peers if you will. That you judge folks as above or below you is very telling of you. Not me. That I am suppose to make conversation special to you is odd. As when you talk here, you are actually talking to an audience, even if answering a direct question.

You see, I am human, I have my strong points and I have my weak points, the question is, why would you want to change me? That puzzles me. I am not your friend or even an acquaintance, just a peer. Cheers

It is the opposite for me, all the females are natural born killers and the males grow slower, or I should say the females put on weight, the males grow longer and thinner. This is what I expect in my colonies, as the females tend not to prowl as much as the males. They don't need to find a mate, I think they know a mate will find them. They conserve energy better and/or put it to different uses. Making eggs. Males will continually prowl and mate as many times as possible, females say when and how much.
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Todd Hughes

Todd, the same could be said for humans!! LOL.

Temps, how much you feed them and how offen? Living conditions, stress or no stress, etc. Can all contribute to or hinder growth.

Scott

I know I prowled more trying to find a mate, and spent more dinero doing it too!
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Todd Hughes

you said,Either way, FR is the most "knowledgebabble" person here and we should all have some respect if you want to learn anything.

I think I am offended, but I am not sure. Oh well, I will go feed a snake and all is well.

Well, I will end off by saying that MANY people here know way more about snakes then I do. NONE of us know as much as we think we do.

You got to have some humor, hahahahahahahaha.

The copout part is, how do you know if others know as much as they think they do?????????

That sentence has nothing to do with the subject. On my part, you could ask, what do I know about pyros. Then judge from there. In my case, I do have lots of experience with pyros. Both in captivity and in the field. Thats what I am offering, not if I know as much as I think I do, cause if that was the case, I would offer very little.

My approach has always been to know nothing and go by results. What I can do for you is offer reports of results.

THe problem is, most fight instead of having a conversation. A conversation is back and forth. Not finished in one post. So yes, I do leave lots out, so that we have something to say in the proper context of a conversation.

For instance, I may have mentioned this here before. One learning step for me was a biologist confronted me and said, most wild snakes do not drink water(in the late sixties). They do not require drinking water to normally progress and exsist. At the time, I argued that because is i took the water bowls out of our cages, the snakes would quickly stop feeding and dehydrate and would soon die.

But, I thought about what he said. Its very apparent here in the west that the vast majority of individual snakes do not have available drinking water. So what do they do.

I then experimented with raising pyros(the canary). I tried diffferent setups until I was able to raise them to adulthood without drinking water. What I learned was, not only was it possible, but the snakes were so much healthier. They grew faster, digested food better, had better stools and never needed drinking water.

I can see where that is much easier to see in the desert, as we have chronic dry weather. In the east, you may never have to look at that outside, because your wet. But insider our houses, its a common denominator, houses are dry both in the east and the west.

The TEST, all you have to do to test your setup is, take the water out. If the snakes stop feeding, then your cage is causing them to dehydrate. Its that simple. If they show no change, then your setup is fine.

Any questions? Cheers

It was not a "copout" Frank. The fact is that we as humans do not know as much about snakes as we think we do. If they could talk I am sure even your snakes would have some nasty stuff to say to you!! Like----let me the hell out of this cage!!!!LOL. The comment and advice you gave about taking the water out of the cage was great. Straight forward and to the point. Hell, I will even give it a go when my female pyros do not eat and the males do. Was that so hard to just to offer that advice without all the debate? Bottom line is that we are ALL still learning and will ALWAYS be learning. Who is to say that your methods are the best way to keep snakes? They might be, they might not.

....ever drill for oil that's just not there....?
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Please enlighten us all on the finer points of pyro husbandry and pretend that we aren't even here. I would love to read what you have to say about SNAKES and not people. If I find your information helpful, I will use it and thank you. Almost all of my snake husbandry skills have come from other people (Applegate's book really covers it all IMO) I have only made a few adjustments based on my own observations to be honest. joecop is right that none of us know as much as we think we know, but if the snakes are surviving our poor keeping skills then we might not be too far off the mark. AGAIN, PLEASE WRITE ABOUT THE SNAKES, NOT PEOPLE.
snake adventures

Jerry, I do feel like that!! LOL.

I guess what some people may miss with Frank and totally dismiss, is that while most of us could take a king (any king) and raise it from egg to breeding, the tell is the end result. If you are happy that your king laid 5 eggs the first time and got healthy babies, you'd consider it a success. But if you had a first timer lay 13 very large eggs, and hatched out babies that were about 1/2 again as large, you may think, Wow!, some thing's different. I know this has happened with me, using his advice. I have also seen w.c. animals lay 3 large, well develoed eggs, so this is really neither here nor there. I will say this, kings can thrive and suffer both in the wild and under our care, the best we can do is to provide the things we can to the best of our ability, as we learn them, people now days have a much better chance of reproducing snakes than ever before, and much appreciation should be afforded to those who have provided this knowledge over the years. Whether you like someones' approach is mute, if they have valuable information and you utilize it, credit where credit is due. Thank you Joe Forks for letting a dufus hang out with you and learn some awesome stuff about west Texas snakes, thank you John Lassiter for introducing me to mexicana and showing me how to hatch eggs (one way), thank you Toby Brock for helping me understand our local and Asian rat snakes better, thanks to Nocturnal Tom for introducing me into the world of big breeding and awesome opportunities, and for letting me help you at the Daytona show, what an experience! Thanks to Frank for making me ask questions to get the answers,(teaching) and for being approachable off the forums. Hope to see you this year for sure! Thanks to Rainer for defending his opinions so valiently here, thanks to Carston "Zee" Zoldy for being a friend and showing me how it's done, letting me see the awesome Golden corn and being the ultimate host, thanks to Mark Kenderdine for some awesome kings and great conversations, thanks to Jerry Kruse for being Jerry Kruse and allowing us a peek at some truly awesome animals! Thanks to Doug Mong for being Johnny on the spot with answers on many forums, thanks to Thomas Davis for being himself, with passion and fury combined, keep it real Thomas! Most of all my Mom, who let me keep snakes when my Dad wouldn't, lol! All the people I have had the opportunity to meet through the forums and share some experiences and camaraderie with from HCU and SWCHR, you know who you are. And all the people on thse forums, whether newbie or old timer herper, hats off to you, 'cause without all of us, this would be a boring place, hell, you could just do cookie cutter stuff out of a book, (Frank's recipe connotation) and we'd all have similar results.
Point is, it's totally insane to think everyone here is going to act in a certain predictable way, so I guess you take the good with the bad, or don't click on to anyone you don't want to hear$h!t from, lol! But I gotta have my soap fix, and so do we all, or we wouldn't come back to the insanity day after day. Kinda creepy in a way, but whatever floats your boat. You know what burns my @$$? A flame about this high, heheheh!

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Todd Hughes

Great post Todd....
All this BS wants me to want to go out herping rather than talking about captive snakes all the time.....
I can't wait until the weather warms up a bit.....
Hey Todd, can you show me around?....LOL
I got a few spots you may not know just yet myself if you like Splendida and Meahllmorum.......hehehe
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

LOL, if I see one more meahl worm I will freak! I have all the holdbacks from last year, 19, and all the females from the original stripers spot to breed to him, I'll find those genes yet! I'm gonna do the Mustang Islands this year too, why not? I've got an indigo...
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Todd Hughes

and this guy deserves to be spotlighted as well!

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Todd Hughes

Todd, I can roll with that. Well said. I have learned something from just about everyone on this forum and I hope I have helped a few along the way myself. If not, maybe I will tomorrow!!!

THAT, my friend, is the true spirit of these forums! What works for some may not work for others, but when we share both our triumphs and tragedies, we can all take something away of benefit, whether it is to emulate success or throw that friggin' idea out th' window, lol!
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Todd Hughes

Well put Todd. I know sometimes I need a few whacks in the head or a kick in the a$$ to get me up and going. Nothing personal here, not like it's a damn dating board!

Scott

lol, what, this isn't the dating game? no fabulous trip for the winning couple? Dang it, I'm on the wrong forum!
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Todd Hughes

I know, it took me a few years to find this out......LOL!

Scott

Do you ever stuff your Calif Mtn kingsnakes? I am not talking about pyros because i never kept them for any length of time. But I fed california (zonata)Mountain-king neonates multiple pinkies or fuzzies in one sitting. They would sit there looking like stuffed sausages afterwards. I was always worried they would regurge but didn't. Just wondering if this is your experience or if you ever tried this before?

It certainly helps a growth spurt and does equal the mass of a skink or another snakes they would have to digest in the wild. Though the mice do break down and are easier to digest than a reptile. Hmmm.. maybe you say the Mtn kings are more suited with their digest enzymes for a reptile than a rodent..(?).. or maybe the frequency effect the appetite or causes regureges? or maybe it is the water dish or something else like being stress free and squeezing into a tight spot? Whatever it is it boils down to husbandry. And that is what FR is saying. I guess it is like drilling for oil until you hit the sweet spot.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hey Rainer! I'm doing that now with a pair of neonate multicinta. Got them taking frozen/thawed pinkies right from the start and have been bulking them up. Have never found zonata to be that hard making a change over from lizards to mice, or just to f/t mice. Though in the early learning days, some did try my patience.

Scott

"FR, this maybe true. Both my males and females were kept under the same conditions and the males are twice as big and ate twice as much. Obvioiusly the conditions were better suited for the males then the females. Both are very healthy and I am not complaining, just stating observations to the OP. Hopefully their pyros grow at the same fast rate. Mine did not."

Joecop, have you ever considered that maybe males deal with subpar conditions better than females?????? Not saying that it's true but I think it's a valid question to ask.

I agree with trial and error, as well as the notion of "supporting" our snake. Indeed. I have utilized a couple thoughts that were crassly provoked by Frank and I see SOME results, but not across the board. Again, I repeat, it is HOW THE INFORMATION IS DELIVERED!!!!!!!!!!! Not the information itself. And AGAIN, I REPEAT, the information Frank provides is like a FINE STEAK SERVED UPON A DIRTY TRASH CAN LID as opposed to an appetizing, appropriate plate.

Do I want to change him? No, not him......but rather his manner of abusive information delivery.

As for zonatas, no I do not stuff them. These are not monstrous low-land getula that have the ease of flat terrain and a greater abundance of food at their leisure. I raise my z's gradually without implementing a "raise 'em up quick to breed 'em" mentality. I'm more about quality and not quantity, and will simply utilize smaller meals with occasional mineral supplements and afford them tight-squeezing spots with a moist hide and fresh, accessible water as well some temperature choices that are realistic in restricted captive conditions. I seem to have no issues EXCEPT when I've tried to "over-feed" -- snakes are opportunists and will sometimes consume as much as possible....any animal may do this if given the chance to. Will they puke? Sure.....simple over-indulgence. Makes sense to me, and not looking to micro-modify their already micro-environment to make them digest a gluttonous meal.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

But that is exactly what they do! I know I've seen many other species in the wild do this, food bolus' that boggle the mind. They find the temps and use them, only when they need to. Consider this, I watch a colony of Texas indigos here that prefer to eat leopard frogs, more like snacking, but they absolutely love them, but I have also seen them tackle cotton rats, many people believe the cannot stretch their jaws as much as other snakes, but for a non constricting, non venomous snake to chase down and tackle a full grown cotton rat is beyond the imagination. They bask in 100 degrees to process the lump, they are black so they don't stay long. In and out of the heat, back and forth until they accomplish the task, and they are very successful. i know this is as far from mountain kings as it gets, but the principal is the same, and there are no heat sinks to help, not like in zonata territory. They use the sun exclusively. Now I'm not saying you should do this in your own colony, I am just saying I have observed them doing this and they do it successfully. I would think the only times you would get a regurge is if you handled the animal while it was trying to process the food, or if they cannot achieve the right temps they need to do the job. That's not power feeding, that's feeding. They are snakes, they are king snakes, so they are the same. But they are montane, so the differ a little in method. Seems to me a cool ambient temp, with a pretty dang hot basking area under cover would help them achieve their goal. Along with the cool moist and warm humid hides. Just some thoughts. I guess if they are really so fragile, they wouldn't survive as well, but according to Hubbs, there's millions of them in them thar' hills!
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Todd Hughes

Jerry,
I am just saying i have stuffed my zonatas and there were no regurge problems. You say there are. that is just my experience and yours. I don't compare zonatas to any other spp. That is why i said i don't have enough experience with pyros as i have only raised a couple and bred them a handful of times. but i have years of experience with zonata. maybe what you are doing is different from me that they regurege, but I dissagree tht raising them slowly "quality and not quantity" statement is a misnomer. IMO the fatser the snake grows and the more it eats the healtheir it will be up into adulthood. After that some maintenace is required (again my opinion) but raising them to maturity and breeding i beleive the more you feed (frequency and LARGE meals) the healthier the snake and the better its cahnce of survival in captivity.

Sometimes i think we are on the same page because the pics i see of your snakes are very fat and healthy looking. maybe we just do the same thing but have a different way of expressing it...(?)
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

For the sake of argument, I will try this: Obtain a larger plastic tub and create a safe soft mesh screen top that is heat resistant, create a slanted stack, utilize a heat lamp directed atop this stack's edge to create a heat gradient, provide (of course) a nearby moist hide, and implement a montane snake light/misting cycle that I've used before along with a timer. And then I will use a lower-end adult zonata (likely a Sierra snake that I don't intend to breed this year) and post-brumation begin with a couple small meals and then STUFF AWAY. Thus, an experiment. Thoughts? Bets?
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Jerry, I guess everyone else has a "different kind of heat". LOL. You and I have talked in deapth about this issue many times and we know what happened with ours. Hell, I guess my 68-95 gradient was not enough. The humid hide, dry hot hide, cool hide, stack system did not provide the options to digest the amount they ate! What I do know is that every time I have tried to feed a z like I do my other snakes, they regurgitate. So, I just don't do it anymore. They are healthy, fat, and grow well. They just don't reach thirty inches in 18 months like the getula.

well, Joe, John Lassiter has some pyros that big at 18 months, some mexicana that big at 18 months, he's using the drawer cages, and it's working for him. Not just getula, I only work with getula and thayeri now, but when I catch a pair of pyros, I'm going to give that a shot. It SNOWS where they are, I've seen snow maybe 3 times in my 47 years here, humid as hell, it's gonna be a trying experiment for sure. All I can say is just because it didn't work doesn't mean it won't work, you're giving up to early, why didn't it work, what could be done different, maybe they didn't like the way the stack was situated, maybe they want their hide darker, maybe they want to eat at night, maybe your cage is too small, maybe, just maybe, it's too dry in your enclosure, a very tight hide,I don't know but one experiment doesn't answer all the questions. You gotta want to know the answer bad enough, sometimes you get lucky and fall into it and don't realize what you did. I hope you guys succeed at trying to find what answer you are looking for.
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Todd Hughes

........or 60 plus inches like my 24 month old brooks..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

now see, if friends can agree to disagree...I think when you hit the right combo for the right species, you can use the same "formula" but tweaked slightly in different areas, some like it more humid, more dark, hotter basking point, etc. Not all kings are exactly the same but most are very similar!
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Todd Hughes

I'd bet that if your heart was in it to do the best you could, you'd be amazed! and surprised. The point being, if you felt like you could improve on what you have, (and you should) then if you really thought about everything and you really cared about it, you'd either see improvement that would spur you to do more for better results, or fail, in which case, I'd owe you a steak, loaded baker, and a few cold ones. and a guided trip for south texas herps, indigos, big atrox, milks, cateyes, you name it, we'll hunt it. But, it should not be the end all, you'd find out why it failed and do it again. See, most people spend a lot of money on a fine snake, but give it a [bleep]ty place to live, no matter what we tell them. I find it reprehensible to do this. So, if I find something that works, I use it, expound on it, and then when I've achieved results, share it. But much of this stuff is beyond the normal keepers way of thinking. You HAVE to think outside the box (cage) in order to not duplicate what everyone else is doing. The genius behind Frank is that he saw this many years ago, and can't understand why in this day and age, people still keep snakes in a plain old box with a heat lamp and a water bowl and a hide and keep asking what's wrong with my snake? Experiment, compadre, and see if what we are saying doesn't work for you. You have my ante up, so whatcha' gonna put up on your end if we're right, lol! I wanna see some eastern kings and milks in their habitat! and a beer!
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Todd Hughes

Problem is, is if I did this with each and every critter I'd need an entire room if not more to be able to do it. There's no way to get all those parameters met in a 32 quart tub! LOL. Just not possible. THIS IS WHY I have asked frnak to give an example, a photo, a nugget of some sort......but the more you challenge the more belligerent he becomes. YES, these are mostly personality conflicts going on here, and as nice as I am I can also be very much the opposite when met with stubbornness and a condescending tone.

I'm a fantastic clinician and have a thriving practice here in NYC, and I have a strong desire to enter into professorship w/in the next 10 years at university level. What would my results be, honestly, if my clinical prowess got to my head and I started to treat others like Frank does? Huh? I might have maybe a student or two remaining, and others would drop out and go elsewhere. This is precisely what happens, with the most recent example stemming from Frank's typical attitude when discussing pyros. There's absolutely NO need to be subjected to it, much less others supporting how he sarcastically delivers his crumbs of information. Is it important info? YES! Do we have to get slapped around to learn something?!? NOOO!!!

Capiche???
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I capice your sentiments, I just don't agree. I know it sounds like I like to be slapped, but this simply is not the case. It is that I understand Franks' method and it does not affect me the way it does you and some others, and I am certainly not alone in this thinking/understanding, as Rainer is also right there with me. problem is, many don't wish to discuss it further, makes 'em uncomfortable. Also what if one of your students comes in, attitude like Frank or Thomas, you wouldn't go off on them would you? That wouldn't be professional, and I could see the rats flowing off the sinking ship! Capice?
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Todd Hughes

no, I certainly wouldnt go off on 'em. I have the rest of the class to be concerned about. However they'd have no place in class until he/she decided to behave in an appropriate manner. And yeah, we're talking the whole age gammet as there's always a smartaSS in a group. But i wouldnt let it affect the entire group either. They have rights as well, and are more deserving as they WANT to be there.

Now if that student wants to take it up with me outside of school...different story. We're both adults. Then it's up to that fool to decide just how much his medical insurance covers if he wants to kick it up a notch. Yeah, serious as a heart attack when it comes to BS. I just don't tolerate it. But some people just wanna be antagonistic and ruin it for others. It's where i just draw the line Todd, whether it be on a forum or in church...you wanna be abusive to another and I'm in your face. Just like Frank is Frank, well this is me, love it or hate it.

Now getting back to herping Texas...........
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Bring it down here and we'll herp the Schtick outta the southern coast, it's where I shine! The kings down here are funky!

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Todd Hughes

.....not as funky as that happy ending.......LOL!
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Let's hope not! I especially like funky happy endings, so much so, I married an expert!
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Todd Hughes

rainer,

i have some pic's of some tampa kings , thought you'd like to see. what would be the best way to post them ??? thanks

You know,

I was really hoping we could have made it through this weekend with no fighting! That would have rocked. But see some people say things in a different or more blunt manner and that doesnt always sit well with others. Perhaps reading the information rather than the perceived tone might be beneficial.

The drawback is when you all get bickering a LOT of good posts go away. And that is when people complain about moderators pulling too many posts. While I have been far more tolerant of your rantings and passion, I will not tolerate a post of direct attacks period.

Take a deep breath. If you do not like someone, dont attack them. Attack their INFORMATION. I DO NOT LIKE PULLING POSTS.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Your the best Cindy! LOL, ATTACK the info!!!!

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Todd Hughes

I wish i was a moderator. i would make these threads "HOT TOPICS"!

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I'm glad you're not, 'cause Cindy hardly ever comes on and talks kings, you'd be missed. Hey Rainer, why don't you just hand over ALL the secrets it's taken you years to amass, I wanna' breed 100 kings NOW! LOL! I'm sick of waiting for you to give me everything NOW!

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Todd Hughes

JKruse is your guy. And soo friendly too.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>I'm glad you're not, 'cause Cindy hardly ever comes on and talks kings, you'd be missed. Hey Rainer, why don't you just hand over ALL the secrets it's taken you years to amass, I wanna' breed 100 kings NOW! LOL! I'm sick of waiting for you to give me everything NOW!
>>

Thats because I have on king in rescue... Now blood pythons we can chat. Carpet pythons, check... Random unusual iguanid species we can do. Kings I don't keep. Altho I will say the one I have right now is a might entertaining and recently he told me I was under feeding him.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

LOL, don't believe them, they will lie on you to get what they want!
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Todd Hughes

>>LOL, don't believe them, they will lie on you to get what they want!
>>-----
>>Todd Hughes

Well I apparently did not think a kingsnake the size of a pencil could eat an adult XL mouse, he chose to tell me different.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

>>I wish i was a moderator. i would make these threads "HOT TOPICS"!
>>

Ya know Rainer, I always worry when I make a hot topic on here......

But now I am seriously wondering if you all are looking at my calendar when I am gone and plotting the next big fight. They seem to happen when I am gone for the day...
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

I think if we could..COULD.. control ourselves to not violating any TOS we would be okay. I like the TOS here and support them even if i fall away and break them.

The main thing i see are personal attacks. If it would just be that one thing we would all make your job easier. Sure there are other violations and I have broken those as well. But in all I wish we could make your job easier and not behaive like school children.

The other thing is keeping the topics on the snakes (something FR is able to do unless he gets harrassed for something he is not guilty of and even then he keeps the personal stuff to a bare minimum.) . Either way we all have people in our lives who we cannot stand. it is maturity that we can get over ourselves and see that WE are the problem and not the other person. basically we all just need to want to see each other succeed. That does not always mean giving staight answers in what a person is demanding. Or how we think it should be said, taught or delivered. It is control that is the issue and it should just be good debate kept on the subject on snakes.

Bottom line human nature is bad and we need to get beyond that and control our own toungues because that is what comes of our hearts.

In a perfect world we would not need laws and moderators. So as long as people are people in this way (myself included) your indespensible and often overlooked job is overlooked and underappreciated. your are doing a great job at being objective here. My hats off to you.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Agreed completely Cindy.....except for the FR statement. I would have to add "in having to defend others from abusive tactics in order to receive information". No harm in that. Seems simple to me, like a soft breeze on a spring morning.

Thanks for your support and tolerance. Onward and upward.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

......*emerges from corner, sweaty with bruised lip*......*slurred*... "what round is it??".........*stumbles off back into corner*.........*stands up and falls out of ring*........LOL.

Shoot, it's 2am.........I just yawned.....I think thats a sign.....let me back out and try my password again before I shove off to bed......just in case......

Big hugs......
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Sigh, the passion ebbs... well, it was fun while it lasted!
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Todd Hughes