Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Didja guys see the photo here??:

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=59&de=730072

I am not generally a big fan of hybrids, but I DO love pink snakes. I've got both coral and bubblegum snow corns, as well as a strawberry revers Okeetee. And I tell ya what -- when the price comes down on these pink kings, I WANT ONE. Drool, drool....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

so if interstate commerce on these was restricted would you be happy not being able to get one and contend yourself with just what was locally available?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Seems odd to ban interstate transport of a native NA snake (no matter how mutty) though huh? I mean, its not like its from SE Asia and local species have never had to contend with phenotypically similar predators during the evolution.

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

>>so if interstate commerce on these was restricted would you be happy not being able to get one and contend yourself with just what was locally available?

Why would interstate commerce be restricted on them?

I'm not "happy" that I legally have to get my vehicle emissions tested every year -- yet I still support that law. I'm not "happy" that I have to pay income taxes every year -- but I still support their existence. I for one do not require that laws raise my personal level of happiness in order to support them. I'm sorry if that's a foreign concept for you!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

the whole business of what we can own, breed, and sell within the borders of this "free" country is whats at question. REGULATION is needed NOT BANS.
you seem to be FOR this ban on boids?!?!?
you do realize that is the "first" domino, also are you aware that MANYMANY folks make an honest living at breeding and selling boids and that these peoples VERY livelyhood could/would be decimated with the passing of such a law.
WAKE UP!
WAKE UP!
WAKE UP!
this proposition is an attack on personal freedoms and is fueled by animal rights crackpots, bad science, and lawmakers that are completely clueless of the facts.
dont be a dupe, fight this attack on our basic freedoms.
persuit of life, liberty, and happiness... does that mean anything to you?

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, if you want to rant about the proposed ban, please do it in one of the many threads already devoted to that topic. I have already written quite a bit on my opinions about the proposed ban in some of those threads -- but you don't seem to have actually read most of my posts.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

rant? id say passion but whatever...
no i havnt read all your post nor do i want to. i will stick with this one.
question...
do you support S373? namely banning the interstate transport of 9 boid sp.?

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>do you support S373? namely banning the interstate transport of 9 boid sp.?

At this point I neither support nor oppose it. I am trying to explore the issues surrounding the proposed bill before I come to any conclusion. What a concept.....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

HA whats to think about?!?!?
the whole proposition is based on bad science ie the rodda paper and hysteria.
the facts are...
(1)these animals CANNOT establish feral populations outside of the everglades or at least they HAVNT in the 50plus years theyve been imported and distributed all over this country.
(2)if passed it will be ILLEGAL to ship/transport/sell ALL boids out of the state you live in.

the media has ran with it, yes there have been deaths and if it bleeds it leads, but may one be reminded of the deaths from other animals like dogs, horses, cattle YEARLY as oppssed to ANY snake related death yearly hot or not.
to classify all the boids as injurous animals is absurd, sorry i just dont see much to think about there.
venomous are absolutely injurous animals, but to lump boids into that catagory, and justify it all because of the animals in the everglades?!?! NO I DONT THINK SO...
by all means give it some thought, but realize you are on a forum of snake enthusiast that STRONGLY OPPOSE THIS BILL.
i see you have a rainbow they will be lumped into boa constrictor to, everything with boa or python in the name that means everything from sand boas to brb, and ball pythons will be lumped into the 9, its the first dominoe.
heres a concept for you... REGULATION, most states have regs in place for instance here in tx. its the big 5 NOT 9 burm,retic,rock,green&yellow anaconda, permits are needed to own and breed, import, export, sell/transport these sp. the point is its NOT a national concern the individual states can deal with what they feel is needed or not in regards to snakes.
the almighty HSUS basically wrote this bill and is having it presented by their PAID representatives.
WAKE UP!
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Sorry, Thomas, but if you want me to respond further to any more of your rantings you'll have to post on one of the appropriate threads for it. I'm not going to indulge you any further on this thread. I'll let you know now, though, that I respond much better to calm and civil discourse than I do to hysteria.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

my, what a funny lil person you are. its probably best you hide behind a screenname. good luck doc, im done.

,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"Why would interstate commerce be restricted on them?"

Because they are not native to the USA. The parent species, Thayer's and Ruthven's Kings, are native to Mexico. These could get out and breed with our native kings. Also since these are hybrids there is a risk that their 'hybrid vigor' may present an especially dangerous scenario.

Is this a stretch? I think so but then again I also think Burmese, Anacondas and Boa constrictors getting established in San Francisco is a strech.

>>"Why would interstate commerce be restricted on them?"
>>
>>Because they are not native to the USA. The parent species, Thayer's and Ruthven's Kings, are native to Mexico. These could get out and breed with our native kings. Also since these are hybrids there is a risk that their 'hybrid vigor' may present an especially dangerous scenario.
>>
>>Is this a stretch? I think so but then again I also think Burmese, Anacondas and Boa constrictors getting established in San Francisco is a strech.

This isn't really on the original topic, which was simply lust for an unusual herp, but it IS an actual thoughtful post so I thank you for it.

I think you would need to demonstrate that the introduced Thayer's and/or Ruthven's actually posed a threat to native wildlife. For instance, endangered species have been found in the stomach contents of pythons in the glades. So, can you demonstrate anything similar with the kings in question? Have there been populations of feral thayeri or ruthveni found in the states? Even any single escaped specimens?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

South Florida has been the importation capital from the southern hemisphere. The list of feral animals establishing breedable populations there(and displacing natives)is long and well documented. I cant remember the last time I saw a GREEN anole there, if ever. This big snake law is part knee-jerk reaction from pent-up frustration with the lack of responsibility importers have shown to the problems there. The glades themselves should be ENDANGERED. One snake eats one gator and it makes the news.....whatever

>>South Florida has been the importation capital from the southern hemisphere. The list of feral animals establishing breedable populations there(and displacing natives)is long and well documented. I cant remember the last time I saw a GREEN anole there, if ever. This big snake law is part knee-jerk reaction from pent-up frustration with the lack of responsibility importers have shown to the problems there. The glades themselves should be ENDANGERED. One snake eats one gator and it makes the news.....whatever

You haven't answered the question, Jeff. Aaron and I are currently talking about ruthvenis and thayeris. Have there been any reports of ruthveni or thayeri feral populations? Captured escapees?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Do you think given the proper encouragement a reproductive population of that ssp of kingsnake couldnt occur? Considering all the flora and fauna from every continent that have managed footholds it would but foolish to even entertain that question...

>>Do you think given the proper encouragement a reproductive population of that ssp of kingsnake couldnt occur? Considering all the flora and fauna from every continent that have managed footholds it would but foolish to even entertain that question...

Phhhhht.

None have been found, or you or Aaron would have come up with them by now. Talk to me when they are, then maybe I'll take the "danger" seriously.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I don't think any endangered species have been found in the gut contents of any of the other 8 out of the big 9. And only a very small number of actual specimens of endangered species have been actually been found in Burmese. I think it's actually less than 5 individuals of 2 endangered species. From this they have extrapolated the dangers. Certainly no endangered species have been found in the gut contents of the Burmese pythons established in Minnesota because there are no Burmese established there. Yet the law seeks to 'protect' the endangered species in Minnesota from a Burmese problem that in all likelihood will never occur.

I am not anti regulation. I would feel extreme regret were we to do nothing about the pythons in the everglades and an extinction of an endangered species resulted. Something should be done.

What I am agianst is unfair, knee-jerk reactions to a problem that I think has been exaggerated or at best, inaccurately assesed. So my point is not that thayeri, ruthven's or hybrids might present a real problem.

My point is that if we allow the opportunistic politicians or predjudiced special intrests like PETA to push exaggerated, unfair or unsupported regulations on one segment of the hobby, they could eventually be pushed on the rest of the hobby.

I don't keep any of the big 9. All I keep are kings, milks and Trans-Pecos ratsnakes.

"Certainly no endangered species have been found in the gut contents of the Burmese pythons established in Minnesota because there are no Burmese established there. Yet the law seeks to 'protect' the endangered species in Minnesota from a Burmese problem that in all likelihood will never occur."

PS - I was not directing the above sarcasm at you. It's directed at the people who thought up this potential ban as it is currently written, just to show how some effects of the ban really don't make sense to me.

>>PS - I was not directing the above sarcasm at you. It's directed at the people who thought up this potential ban as it is currently written, just to show how some effects of the ban really don't make sense to me.

They are not protecting Minnesotans. They are protecting Florida from snakes transported FROM Minnesota.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Incorrect, pythons cannot go into Minnesota either so yes they are 'protecting' Minnesota.

And the taxpayers will be paying for it. It's rediculous. If a private company was attempting to sell insurance to the citizens of Minnesota, offering to cover damages related the establishment of Burmese pythons on their properties, that company would probably be sued and/or prosecuted for fraud. If a private company was attempting to contract with Minnesotans local governments, offering to prevent the establishment of Burmese pythons, Minnesotans would probably be very upset with the company and all the polititians involved is such a waste of money, to say the least.

>>Incorrect, pythons cannot go into Minnesota either so yes they are 'protecting' Minnesota.

Not really.

It's much easier to control movement of animals into the country than it is to control movements from state to state. So, if you don't want animals going into Florida (or pick a state), it's much easier to accomplish that if you keep them from coming into the country altogether. Then, you add the state-to-state movement ban to try to catch the ones that are already here. But there's no customs at most state borders, so that is much less effective than the international ban.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The law would prohibit pythons from legally entering Minnesota. Are you saying that the law is ok because parts of it do good and the parts that don't are going to be easy to break?

>>The law would prohibit pythons from legally entering Minnesota. Are you saying that the law is ok because parts of it do good and the parts that don't are going to be easy to break?

Nope. I'm just telling you some of the reasoning behind bans on interstate transportation.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>I don't think any endangered species have been found in the gut contents of any of the other 8 out of the big 9. And only a very small number of actual specimens of endangered species have been actually been found in Burmese. I think it's actually less than 5 individuals of 2 endangered species. From this they have extrapolated the dangers. Certainly no endangered species have been found in the gut contents of the Burmese pythons established in Minnesota because there are no Burmese established there. Yet the law seeks to 'protect' the endangered species in Minnesota from a Burmese problem that in all likelihood will never occur.

I am perfectly willing to entertain the idea that a total ban may be an overreaction to the possible problems with the "big 9". But, given that NO ruthvenis or thayeris have been found either established or escaped in the wild (that we know of), can we first agree that there is currently NO justification for positing a ban on them?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

So you would invite Charles Manson to dinner, but you wont give him a knife.....

>>So you would invite Charles Manson to dinner, but you wont give him a knife.....

Non sequitur.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Full circle. You asked for justification on banning kings. There is no scientific evidence to justify a ban ANY species, so how can there be evidence to ban kings?? This is the "Logic" I emailed you about.....Once you ban anything it will be alot easier to ban everything. I mean, in 1941 Jewish people were only being extirpitated in Poland...so if you lived in say Luxemborg and were Jewish things were peachy?? I apologize for the reference but logical analogies arent working well. Intelligent debate please.

>>Full circle. You asked for justification on banning kings.

And I was not given any.

>>There is no scientific evidence to justify a ban ANY species, so how can there be evidence to ban kings??

There is more for the "big 9" than for kings. Feral populations, feral escapees, ingested endangered species, and so on. I don't know that there's ENOUGH evidence on the "big 9" to justify a total ban -- but there is more for them than for the kings.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Sorry, I forgot this part:

>>Once you ban anything it will be alot easier to ban everything.

According to this argument, we should not have banned brown tree snakes, zebra mussels, or mongeese. I'm all for those bans, thanks!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

In Massachusetts they once outlawed CHRISTMAS. There is still a law on the books that says its illegal to eat peanuts in church! Ya, thats just what we need, MORE LAWS. Fix the problem?? Hell, how can we make money on that?? Making laws, being able to prosecute rich guys for their hobby...more money in that dontcha think? Is this really about a an old problem or an old solution? How about a NEW solution that doesnt take an act of CONGRESS???? But first, lets spend thousands of dollars to make sure YOUR subspecies of kingsnake is immune from all the hoopla....geez.

>>In Massachusetts they once outlawed CHRISTMAS.

Non sequitur.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

What do you tell a woman with 2 black eyes???
Start at the top of this thread and read it again, LOL.
Sorry I tried to use logic again, my bad.

>>Sorry I tried to use logic again, my bad.

If you were "trying" to use logic, you failed. Try harder next time.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

So what do you tell a woman with 22 black eyes.....run for congress, you will fit right in.

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

To answer your question, there are no known eastablished populations of thayeri, ruthveni or hybrids thereof in any state in the US.

Similarly there are no known established populations of any of the big 9 in any state in the US outside of Florida. There is also no study offering that they will be established in all 50 states.

That is where the inequity comes in. The fact that they may put a ban on a species in 49 states where no danger has been seen from that species, shows that they can propose a ban on other species in other places where no danger has been seen.

I already did say that this law does more than just prevent pythons from getting into Florida.

The questions you posed concerning thayeri and ruthveni then becomes much less important than the greater question of fairness. Because without a precedent in favor of fairness, no lawmaker going forward will feel the need to ask or answer your questions if there comes a time when they want to go after what you have.

Furthermore, if this law passes as written it will weaken the hobbies ability to fight all future laws because a large portion of the hobby will be pushed underground. The people who are underground will be less able to participate in any future battles which will mean anti-herp legislation will face an ever dwindling opposition each time a new law is passed.

Thank you Aaron!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

>>To answer your question, there are no known eastablished populations of thayeri, ruthveni or hybrids thereof in any state in the US.
>>
>>Similarly there are no known established populations of any of the big 9 in any state in the US outside of Florida. There is also no study offering that they will be established in all 50 states.

But not similarly, we here don't even know of any feral escapees of the king species in question. We DO know of established feral escapees in each of the "big 9" genera.

>>That is where the inequity comes in. The fact that they may put a ban on a species in 49 states where no danger has been seen from that species, shows that they can propose a ban on other species in other places where no danger has been seen.

Nope. Refer back to my earlier posts regarding some of the reasoning behind interstate transport bans. Also, nobody is banning the snakes in the states where they already reside -- just the transport between the states.

>>Furthermore, if this law passes as written it will weaken the hobbies ability to fight all future laws because a large portion of the hobby will be pushed underground. The people who are underground will be less able to participate in any future battles which will mean anti-herp legislation will face an ever dwindling opposition each time a new law is passed.

If herpers "go underground", then the consequences for doing so are on their own shoulders.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>To answer your question, there are no known eastablished populations of thayeri, ruthveni or hybrids thereof in any state in the US.
>>
>>Similarly there are no known established populations of any of the big 9 in any state in the US outside of Florida. There is also no study offering that they will be established in all 50 states.

But not similarly, we here don't even know of any feral escapees of the king species in question. We DO know of established feral escapees in each of the "big 9" genera.

The situations are similar. I did not say exact. Your premise seems to be that they would never do something so unreasonable as to ban thayeri/ruthveni hybrids and that a nationwide ban on the big 9 is reasonable because they have been found feral in just one state, Florida.

What we are talking about here is really just opinions on what is reasonable. I think a ban on imports into Florida and other states that have habitats similar to the everglades is reasonable. I don't think extending that ban to other states that don't have condusive habitats is reasonable.

What you might want to consider is that there are many degrees of interpretation on what could be considered reasonable. The ban that was originally proposed was going to be nationwide based on Genus. Some considered that reasonable. I considered that extreme.

Other more extreme standards could be considered reasonable by some. Brown Treesnakes are a Colubrid in the family Colubridae. They have been found feral on Guam and have done alot of damage there. Since Guam is an unincorporated territory of the US and Brown Treesnakes are a Colubrid, one could make a case for banning all nonnative Colubridae in all US states and unincorporated territories of the US. This would aid in preventing the spread of all nonnative Colubrids throughout the US and it's territories.

You and I might consider that extreme or unreasonable. We might say the Brown Treesnake is a tropical colubrid and Guam is a tropical country, therefore we should limit the ban to only tropical colubrids. And only ban them in tropical states and territories such as Guam, Hawaii and Florida. But others might argue like you did in the other thread, that we need to ban them all in all states so that a person in Texas will have a harder time sending them to Guam or Hawaii.

As far as what you said about letting those who choose to go underground suffer the consequences of their actions, you seem to have missed the point. The point is that the overall hobby will be weakened, not just that those who go underground will be suffering. This is because the ones who go underground will be less able and less likely to effectively participate in fighting any future anti-petkeeping legislation. They will be more worried about getting caught than they are about helping the rest of the hobby fight and they will feel like they have no reason to fight since they have already been criminalized. As the overall numbers of hobbyists actively participating in these fights decreases, that will pave the way for increasingly broad anti-petkeeping legislation.

For one last point I will quote myself, "As the overall numbers of hobbyists actively participating in these fights decreases, that will pave the way for increasingly broad anti-petkeeping legislation."

The above quote is why I think Boa constrictors were added as they are not true giants and they probably have far less ability to become invasive than Bumese do.

I think it was a tactical move to include Boas since they are extremely popular and it will take out a huge chunk of the hobby.

>>The situations are similar. I did not say exact. Your premise seems to be that they would never do something so unreasonable as to ban thayeri/ruthveni hybrids and that a nationwide ban on the big 9 is reasonable because they have been found feral in just one state, Florida.

I'm not sure whether it's really reasonable, or not. I'm just saying that there is at least some evidence in the one case, and none in the other.

>>As far as what you said about letting those who choose to go underground suffer the consequences of their actions, you seem to have missed the point. The point is that the overall hobby will be weakened, not just that those who go underground will be suffering.

But that would be the fault of the folks who go rogue -- not the fault of the ban.

I would like to explore the idea of microchipping more of the big 9.....but I think it would be too hard to enforce. I think part of the reasoning behind the sledgehammer approach is that more restricted, nuanced approaches are just too difficult to apply in reality. And that's really too bad!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"But that would be the fault of the folks who go rogue -- not the fault of the ban."

I agree mostly although it could be argued that in a society where freedom and the pursuit of happiness are supposed to be important, those criminalizing something that does no harm also bear some blame. Some of the blame should also be laid on hobbyists who do nothing to act in their own self intrests as well.

However the point was not to lay blame. Blaming would do no good. The point was to inspire people to consider the likelihood that allowing the passage of broad laws such as this one will encourage the formulation of more broad laws in the future and indirectly assist in their passage.

I don't have any direct stake in this law as I don't own any of the big 9. In fact it's passage might even give me some short term benefits because it might create more demand for the kingsnakes and ratsnakes I have. In the long term I think it would hurt because I think there are special intrests and certain government officials who would like to ban all herps.

I think that broad laws based on ease of enforcment and expediency rather than science and neccessity have the potential to hurt the hobby and myself way more in the end so I think we really need to push our legislators into considering things more carefully than they are doing now.

FYI that snake is far from "NEW". That pic itself is about 10 years old(more or less), the line has been around that long. The fact that you dont see a single other pink thayeri hybrid in 10 years says something both about you and that line.....I gotta ask, whats with the screenname? Your lack of scientific thinking is kinda obvious so what kind of "doc" are you??

>>FYI that snake is far from "NEW". That pic itself is about 10 years old(more or less), the line has been around that long. The fact that you dont see a single other pink thayeri hybrid in 10 years says something both about you and that line.....

Why in the world would it say something about me? Well, maybe it says that I've been out of the herp world for several years....shrug...

As for the line, you can see pics of 2009 babies here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/probreeders/sets/72157622455472909/detail/

>>I gotta ask, whats with the screenname? Your lack of scientific thinking is kinda obvious so what kind of "doc" are you??

ROFL.

I'm a DVM with several years of post-doc education. How about you, Jeff??
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Because it has Thayeri blood in it I doubt the look could be reliably reproduced. Thayeri or Variable Kingsnakes tend to reproduce various colors and patterns... But it is still a hybrid, and while my wife would love it I can pass. Especially for that price.

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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

>>Because it has Thayeri blood in it I doubt the look could be reliably reproduced. Thayeri or Variable Kingsnakes tend to reproduce various colors and patterns... But it is still a hybrid, and while my wife would love it I can pass. Especially for that price.

Yeah, I ain't gonna be buying one at that price either....but if they ever got down around $100, I might!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

What I can't understand is how we even got started talking about a pink hybrid king on a milk forum. Gotta admit, if I were into hybrids, that would be the way to go, lol. But I'm not. If you want a pink snake, get some of the west Texas longnoses, while not completely pink, they are at least a true form, locality to boot, and belong here just as much as a hybrid with some milk in it, they at least share some habitat with milks. Gotta say doc, for somebody with no horse in the race, you sure seem like you do, you really need to get off the fence, one way or the other, you have nothing to argue about, just sayin'...what's the point? Thanks for advising all the people on how they SHOULD deal with the situation, it is an emotionally charged event, for those who believe that Congress will take another step if they prevail. Plus, Aarons' point is very valid, I do not wonder if there could be thayeri there, I wonder where, lol! I'm gonna get me some! There are ample opportunities for that to happen out there.
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Todd Hughes

>>What I can't understand is how we even got started talking about a pink hybrid king on a milk forum.

Yeah, I really shoulda put it over on the kingsnake board....but since I don't currently have any kings, and I do have milks and have posted over here previously, I put it here. My bad!

Gotta admit, if I were into hybrids, that would be the way to go, lol. But I'm not. If you want a pink snake, get some of the west Texas longnoses

I'll look that one up. I fell in love with the pink snakes 'cause of my pink corns -- which, while far from locality forms, are at least pure corn. I don't really *need* any more pink snakes, but they are easy for me to lust after.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters