Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know there are a lot of frustrated souls out there, especially in GA. I know about the screwed up herp laws there and it truly amazes me. I've read some of the older forums about this (a few weeks ago), but I just had to bring it up again, because I had my own experience with these guys a few days ago. I bought some nice Easterns from Kevin Enge at the Carolina Reptile show. I asked him to make sure to give me a good receipt in case I run into these guys because I had to drive through Georgia - twice! Once to get to Florida (in order to visit the Krysko's and buy a few more snakes) then do a little herping while there. And of course I have to drive home to NC. Well it actually happened. I was pulled over of the side of the road to do a quick check on the snakes I had in my van. A sherif pulls up and asks me what I was doing I told him I was checking on my snakes. He asked me what I had and I told him the truth. He then lets me go and as I'm driving away he suddenly chases me down and asks me if I can pull over and let a wildlife officer check me out (He obviously didn't believe my story!). I said okay, no problem. I pulled over, waited about twenty minutes and the guy finally shows up. The wildlife officer asks me if I know that I can't be in possession of any nonvenemous snakes whatsoever. I said I know about your laws so when I bought these animals, I made sure I got a receipt and I was also informed that you can pass through the state with them (I checked with GA before I even left NC). This guy didn't believe me (about the passing through thing ! ! !)He had to call his boss and verify. After about a 30 minute hassle and a further search of my van they let me know and then admitted that I CAN have these reptiles only if I'm passing through going from point A to point B. They then wanted to know where I was going next. I almost said : To get the H out of here!I did have the feeling that I almost lost my snakes regardless (WITH RECEIPTS!)! I am not from Georgia, but I have relatives there. If anyone from GA wants to try to change this rediculous law or needs more voices for a petition or anything let me know, I'll back you up! (Before I go there and collect the remaining Eastern Diamondbacks, since they're so unbelievably common in Georgia, LOL! However I did see some EXTREMELY RARE black racers and EXTREMELY RARE water snakes) THANKS A LOT FOR READING THIS, it may save someone some trouble I hope.
TAKE CARE Y'ALL ! ! !
Zee

I'm sorry that you had to go through what you did in order to get back to NC. Being from Georgia, I have to live with these, for the most part, unreasonable laws. Because I reside in Georgia I cannot keep any native nonvenomous snakes or lizards, spotted turtles, any map/sawback turtle (and to my knowledge only one species is found in this state), any diamond back terripans, Florida or Eastern Box turtles, Alligator snapping turtles, bog turtles, Gopher tortoises (for obvious reasons), any Crocodilian, any NON-native venomous snake, and there is a whole host of others. Any other species of turtle, frog, salamander, and let us not forget any species of native venomous snakes (for the most part) are considered pest species or fishing bait, nice huh....
I think that the stupidist thing that came out of these ridiculous laws, and Blueking touched on this alittle, is that I can go out and catch as many Eastern Diamondback rattlers as I want but I can't keep a "F-infinite# generation, Snow/Blizzard, Type B Anerythristic, whatever the hell you call the morph because I can't keep it since it's native to the state cornsnake". And it doesn't stop there... A few years ago I tried to order an Everglades rat and Blotched king from a well-known and respected breeder/distributer in Florida and they wouldn't ship them to me because Georgia's laws apparently covered these subspecies/varieties as well. Where does the Everglades rat snake's range overlap with the Black rat snake's range in Georgia??? (notice the sarcasm)
Anyway, I would to keep some Eastern, Outerbanks, Blotched, Black, Florida and Brook's (I'm pretty sure these are included too) but unfrotunately for myself and anyone else that resides in this state we must abide by the laws, or in the cases of a few people I know "don't tell anyone". Seriously though, I trully am sorry to hear about your encounter with one our clueless "wildlife gurus". Hopefully you won't run into this problem again. Maybe if I ran for governer I could do something about this, "Governer for the Herpers".
Okay, enough blood has been spilled tonight, sorry for the long post and goodnight.
Sincerely,
Frank B.

yea, i live in GA, and it sux pretty bad on the herp keeping front. problem is, i cant seem to actually find anyone to get a herp org going. most people either dont have the time, or are afraid of attracting attention. i think some kind of organization with some goals of education and wild species preservation would help give some legal support in order to get some laws changed. georgia is a big state, and its also difficult to get many of us together to sit down and throw around ideas. perhaps some kind of website....

I lived in GA back in the eighties and I am sad to hear that things are just as paronoid as when I was there. The reason you can collect rattler's in Ga is that many politicians represent areas where rattlesnake roundups bring in heavy revenue. Otherwise I have no doubt the laws there would allow killing but not keeping. I attended the Atlanta herp Society in 1987 ...and it was like being a jew in Nazi land. I have never been with a reptile group more afraid of persecution. that is why I came back to Florida where there is some sanity (in herp circles). Frank

I also lived in GA for a time, my in-laws and husband are from there. During the time I was there (the last year actually) I was harrassed not once, but on 3 seperate occasions, twice for the keeping/breeding of my CALIFORNIA kingsnakes. Our landlord (who was very cool) had inadvertantly mentioned to one of the local 'wildlife gurus' that I had a bunch of kingsnakes, so 2 of them had to come to my house and inspect my animals. They were threatening to take one of them simply because they couldn't identify it, (sinaloan milk/cal king? cross) even though it was obvious that he was NOT a native species. Hell, even I'M not sure exactly what he is, but it's very obvious to me...he's RED like a sinaloan, with slim greyish white bands and certainly a hybrid.
The second time we were having a party and it was pretty loud and the cops had been called on us. I happened to answer the door with my favourite albino cal king female in hand and they immediately started in on me, the cops themselves thought she was some venomous snake (LOL) and called local animal control, who, thankfully, knew his stuff and took one look at her (and the rest of my snakes) and laughed the cops away.
The third time was when we were moving and we were stopped at a gas station. I had one of my bearded dragons in the cab of the U-haul with us, along with our cat. I was sitting waitng for my husband to pay for the gas when up walks a cop and starts grilling me about the lizard on the dashboard. I told him what it was and he asked if I had anything else and I said no (even though they were all in the back) and he just yelled at us for having loose anmals in the cab of the truck. I was paranoid for a while after that waiting to get pulled over or something.
These people are daft...you think maybe they'd take the time to LEARN something or even *shock* LISTEN and believe people about their pets, especially when they can PROVE what it is that they have.
-----
"Klaatu...Verata...Nicht--cough, cough, cough!"

Sorry to hear about some of YOUR misfortunes as well. Maybe starting a website and telling everyone we know about these ate-up laws will get the ball rolling. I'm sure if everyone knew or was informed they'd be supportive. I can guarantee that I'm telling everyone that I know. I just retired from the Army after almost 21 years of service and nearly a year in hell, oops, I meant IRAQ! So I need a little time but I'll see what I can do on my part.
(LUCKY for some of those ? politicians (such as in Claxton and other rattlesnake roundup areas) people like me defended that freedom no matter how much it took me from my family in dirty dusty hot/cold places where people hate Americans for them to make such ill decisions in their own best interest.)

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! ! ! ! ! ! GREED IS EVIL! ! !
The only good snake is a dead (Rattle)snake! Selective killing is okay? ? ? What ARE THEY SMOKING? ? ?
THANKS FOR LETTING ME VENT!

NOT A POLITICIAN
NOT AN A* KISSER
NO SPECIAL HERP DEGREE
NOT A ROCKET SCIENTIST
JUST PLAIN OL'ME
COMMON SENSE ME!
LONG LIVE THE COLUBRIDS! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
ZEE

The sad part about many of the " Rattlesnake roundups", not that it already isn't sad, that take place here in Georgia is that since Eastern Diamondbacks, Canebrakes/Timbers, and pigmies are getting so scarce many of the people that catch the snakes for the round-ups resort to just catching any snake, venomous or not. A buddy of mine went to a round-up in Claxton to see what really goes on at a round-up. He wasn't suprised to see that for every rattlesnake there was a cornsnake, kingsnake,ratsnake, you name it and as long as it is native to Georgia it was in there being passed off as a rattlesnake by the "Rattle Snake Handlers". Pretty sick huh.
Frank

How come they don't crash these events when so many native nonvens are present? I'd be calling them out there every single time to hassle the roundups as much as possible.

Van

Because it is about MONEY. Welcome to the wonderful world of Georgia....Where if a Politician profits...the police turn their back. Laws there favor the business over the customer, the landlord over the tennant...get the picture? We are not talking about a nice place.
Frank

check out the rattlesnake roundup with my good ol' buddy THE MEDIA! Maybe I can share with them (what happened to me) and the differential treatment that goes on there and video tape the events following my phone call to the wildlife department as soon as I see nonvenemous snakes being brought in.
Someone's got to stir the SH.. in the Pot! As long as I can get the media to accompany me, I should be alright. This could turn out to be quite an adventure! ! ! Any thoughts?

ZEE

Frank's got it right. It about money and politics. Some of these communities that have the roundups depend on the dollars that they bring in, so....they call it "tradition" and everyone just sort of does the "wink and nod" thing and looks the other way. It's tough to take on and beat "Good Old Boy" politics. Even if the Dept of Natural Resources Officers wanted to do something about one of these events, they would probably be disciplined if they tried, especially after the State Representatives from those areas put the pressure on the higher-ups at the Department of Natural Resources. There's a LOT of empire building that goes on. The Georgia Department of Natural Resources Wildlife Enforcement Division just had a big scandal over some officer that was held back from promotions and either fired or forced out finally because of some sort of a deal where his immediate supervisor was running around with his wife, or he was running around with the supervisor's wife or some crap such as that, so the held-back and fired officer filed a big lawsuit against the department....our tax dollars at work.

The ONLY way that species such as Eastern Diamondbacks are ever going to be afforded an effective protection is through education of the general population where they are still found. It's going to be a slow, tough job, but it is the only way. I promise you that no matter how many laws are passed protecting them, until the attitude toward them is changed, they are still going to be killed on site by the vast majority of the people that might encounter them. You can outlaw the roundups, but that's not going to stop people from catching them in Georgia and taking them to Alabama for a roundup, or just outright killing them. Gopher Tortoises AND their burrows have been protected in Georgia for some time now. It hasn't slowed the gassing of the burrows for the Rattlesnakes one little bit. This attitude is very deeply engrained in these folks. You aren't going to change their minds now, but you can educate the kids through school programs...maybe the animals have that much time left.

The sad thing is that the laws regarding keeping Corn Snakes, King Snakes and such COULD be changed if everyone would get involved. It seems that everyone is either too busy or afraid to start an effective, active Herp Society. In order to be effective, though, the Society would have to be willing to give something back...not just take. It would need to help support some of the education and conservation efforts by donating time, money,labor or whatever. Georgia does have some good projects going in conjunction with the USFWS and some of the Universities. Maybe if we all got together and made a concerted effort and pitched in to help some instead of just whining about how unfair the laws are, we could get some cooperation and make some headway.

One of the biggest problems we face right now as herpers is the adversarial relationship we have with State and Federal Wildlife Agencies. This is at least partially our fault any way you slice it. If you think about it, the only herpers these guys really get to deal with on a day to day basis are the ones that are either being arrested or investigated for some sort of misdeeds. The attitude they end up with towards us is that we are all just interested in what we can get, the rarer the better, without regard for wild populations. I think that we could eventually change that to a more cooperative relationship if we try to do out part with the conservation of Threatened and Endangered Species. It may be in the form of donating funds for the projects, volunteering to help with labor, voluteering for educational projects and most of all, policing our own ranks. This may be a very unpopular opinion, but I think that when we know of someone who is willingly and intentionally breaking wildlife laws we should do whatever we can to stop it. Not just ignore it, even if we don't agree with the law. If we ignore it, they will eventually get caught and there's another black mark against all herpers. If it's regarding a Threatened or Endangered Species, report it...and let them know it is being reported by a herper. If you don't agree with the law, get it changed....that's one of the great things about the United States...we have a voice.

I am sorry to hear that you had to put up with Georgias messed up laws even when you was only passing through. I am live in Georgia and I would love to have some eastern kings but for now I will have obey these messed up laws. Here you can have a native venomous snake with out any permit. I would like to try and help to change these laws. Alot of people want to change thse laws if you know anyone who could help change this crazy law then email me at electricbluescat@earthlink.net If we herpers band together maybe something could be done.

laterz,
john