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My thoughts on keeping pyros...

Tony D Feb 01, 2010 09:37 AM

or any king snake for that matter.

Rule #1 to remember is that snakes, even within the same species, are individuals, what works for most will not work for all. Always be ready to tweak your setups.

The absolute minimum cage size for adults should be the average between the cage circumference equaling the snake's length and a square foot for each foot of snake. Example: a four-foot king would need ((1'X1') + 4') / 2 or 2.5 square feet. This is the approximate surface area of a 16" X 23" blanket box.
Cages must be escape proof.
Regardless of the bedding used, a cage does not have the biologic capacity to recycle waste indefinitely therefore, bedding needs to be changed routinely. Ease of cleaning and proper disposal should be considered when selecting a bedding.
Ventilation is important but so is humidity. The two need to be balanced.
Captive snakes can easily stress, provide adequate hide(s).
Humidity hides are helpful especially when in ecdysis.
Save the exceptions of a few desert adapted animals, always provide clean fresh drinking water.
Thermal gradients must be provided and maximized. 90 - 75 is ok, 100 - 65 is better. It can be done.
Gradients do not need to be constant. They can be adjusted for feeding and non-feeding days as well as for day and nighttime highs and lows.
Gradients do not need to always be horizontally. Do not overlook opportunities to establish vertical gradients.
Use of vertical gradients also effectively increases usable surface area.
Lighting is not critical but at sub-optimal temps photoperiods seem to have an impact.

Cages and fixtures, especially electrical, should be inspected routinely.
Remove any damp bedding and adjust environment to prevent recurrence.
Gross fecal matter should be cleaned out ASAP.
Water bowls should be routinely washed and disinfected not just refilled.

Check on and interact with cage occupants between feeding. Monster feeding responses are not always indicative of underfeeding. Sometimes the snake is just habitualized to feed whenever the cage is opened.

Always feed the best quality food you can find.
It doesn't hurt to mix up the diet a little bit. (I feed mine day old quail for a few weeks every spring.)
As long as you don't over due it, mineral and vitamin supplements can't hurt.
The amount of food that can be properly assimilated is directly correlated to the amount of heat the animal has access too.
Over fed snakes get fat and underfed snakes get skinny. Well-fed snakes have good body weight and grow at predictable rates.
If there is a growth / weight issue with your snakes, you need to look at temperature as well as amount fed.

Unless you are a breeder worried about the bottom line, success is not gauged by how fast a snake grows or how soon and how many egg a female throws. Good body weight, muscle tone, resistance to disease and illness and behavior determine basic success.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Replies (32)

Bluerosy Feb 01, 2010 10:12 AM

Good post TonyD!

The biggest thing that stands out for me on that list is the water dishes.

Anyone keeping snakes and especially large collections need to clean and disinfect their water dishes. This is how most problems start even if the most base of husbandry is left out (ventilation, heat gradients, clean substrate, humidity etc.)

Heck, i can routinly feed my snakes 2 day old dead bloated mice but if a water dish gets slimey and they drink it- watch out! you'll have problems.

Never switch water dishes to another cage unless they have been disinfected.

Also when auiring new residents in your established collection always give them a seperate area and do not switch cages or water bowls. QUARANTENE them.

Mites can be hard to see and even if the snakes loook healthy you never know if they caught a cooty (desease) and it is just not showing.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

snakeadventures Feb 01, 2010 10:15 AM

All valuable keeping information and idividual observations is great for the forum and heck, yours didn't even have one personal insult or imply that the rest of us are stupid.
Thanks
snake adventures
snake adventures

joecop Feb 01, 2010 11:46 AM

Tony, well said and ALL great information for any keeper. That is one post that can be looked up when brand new keepers need advice!!!

antelope Feb 01, 2010 11:55 AM

presented very well, I don't agree with the vitamins, but then that's just me. I believe they get what they need from whole food sources, especially if, as you mentioned, you vary the diet from time to time.
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Todd Hughes

Tony D Feb 01, 2010 01:04 PM

I understand that, many of those Frank mentored discount the use of vitamins outright.

I started using vitamins because of some poorly calcified eggs and the occasional egg binding. Though the eggs almost always hatched and I had remedies for egg binding I started thinking the problems were related to calcium uptake and if I was missing something relative to how nature "supports" egg laying snakes.

Ever wonder what it is about spring that "supports" breeding during that time? The list goes on and on but diet is rarely looked at. I hypothesized that it might be a factor. The idea went that by spring, seed predation is pretty near complete and rodent populations resort to eating shoots, leave, flowers and fruits. A diet consisting of actively growing (fresh) vegetation is much higher in beta-carotenes than a seed based diet. Seeds are basically a starch based storage devise and are not near the "whole" food that fresh vegetation is. Anyway these natural caroteniods, passed along as gut load, are also the biologic precursors for vitamin, A which is important in calcium metabolism. Couple this with spring time basking potentially increasing vitamin D3 synthesis (also necessary in calcium metabolism) and you begin to see a pattern that would "support" greater utilization of calcium for both shell formation and muscular contractions during egg deposition. When you look at it this way, there a significant dietary variation that wild snakes experience during the spring. Contrast this to the steady supply of domestic rodents mostly raised on grains (seed) crops and the potential for an issue becomes appearent. If nature could provide a shift in nutritional content, I though so could I.

In any case, since starting with the vitamins I haven't seen any under calcified eggs and I've only had one animal egg bind (a marginal sized female who I sold prior to suspecting she was gravid and had to ship).

The thing is we are admonished to observe and adjust and try new things. This is what I did for a particular set of minor problems and it appears to have worked. Are there other solutions, certainly yes, but its not just results that matter. The thought process that goes into what we do and the resultant increase in appreciation and understanding of the complexity of the natural world also counts.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Bluerosy Feb 01, 2010 02:27 PM

I don't see how adding vitamins can hurt. It may not help but certainly won't hurt them either. Matter of fact for egg producers it makes sense...

Something i have yet to try.

Has anyone used vitamins on neonates and had better results on growth?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Tony D Feb 01, 2010 02:32 PM

I use them for my neonate coastals while they are being tease fed mouse tails with good results.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

joecop Feb 01, 2010 04:59 PM

I tried using a bit of calcium with baby Ltt's and they sure grew fast. Not sure how much it helped because I did not have a control or anthing. I did not do it for long because I was afraid of damaging kidney's or something. I would love to ask a vet if long term is dangerous. I would disolve a little calcium powder in water and then inject that into pinks,fuzzies, ect. Adding a little bone mass to pinks! LOL.

CrimsonKing Feb 01, 2010 05:00 PM

Tony please elaborate on this.
What type and specific vitamins and what is the delivery system used?
Thanks!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Tony D Feb 01, 2010 08:35 PM

Mark I mix RepCal and Herpvit in equal portions and give each food item a barest dusting of the stuff. For coastal neonates I supplement every other feeding until they take their first pink, usually six weeks given twice weekly feedings. Breeding adults are only supplemented during the spring. Males are supplemented about twice while females are for a full month.

For a time I also bought and gut loaded live mice with oranges, apples, carrots, collard greens and any other hi colored vegetable I had on hand. This worked well too but my access to live mice dried up and I was pretty much over raising them for myself.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

antelope Feb 01, 2010 10:53 PM

Tony, that is what I do, not too much dark greens but some fruits, fresh carrots, a little squash mixed in with their normal diet.
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Todd Hughes

Tony D Feb 02, 2010 08:10 AM

If you can raise your own feeders and do this I would agree the resultant feed is indeed whole food and does not require supplementation. This is indeed the best route. When you don't know what went into producing your feeders, I think modest amounts of supplements can't hurt and may help.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

antelope Feb 02, 2010 03:53 PM

Agreed, I may have to go frozen/thawed to supplement, as what I have now is causing too far a stretch in how many mice I want to keep. or I could cull the colony and work with fewer species.
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Todd Hughes

Tony D Feb 02, 2010 04:05 PM

as an alternative you could just raise enough of your ouwn high quality fresh gut loaded feeders to supplement what you buy else where. its alway good to have a few breeder mice around anyway. Especially so when the neonates are out and you need some really really really small pinks. Live pinks help starting neonates too.

Dang you todd now you have me thinking about raising mice again!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

antelope Feb 03, 2010 11:51 AM

Don't do it! Your quality of life will suffer, lol! I spend way too much time raising food (more than I like) but the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for me at this point in my game, plus I have an additional room for the mice off the house, saves my hide with the wife. she's allergic to pet dander, thus, all the snakes get to live inside with me!
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Todd Hughes

Jlassiter Feb 01, 2010 06:08 PM

>>I don't see how adding vitamins can hurt. It may not help but certainly won't hurt them either. Matter of fact for egg producers it makes sense...
>>
>>Something i have yet to try.
>>
>>Has anyone used vitamins on neonates and had better results on growth?

I haven't tried it with any neonate but back in '96 or so I had a female cal king lay eggs that split open on the ends...the eggs had windows when first laid...Only 2 out of the 9 hatched so I tried to dust every other mouse I fed her with calcium.....The next year she had the best looking eggs I have ever seen.....Gleeming white....But....None of them hatched and everyone of them died in the egg.....I thought then I had overdone it with the calcium and the shells were too thick for the neonates to cut with their egg tooth....
I have never used calcium supplement since....

But....I agree with Tony concerning the D3 and all the thought he put into his reasoning....I am willing to give it a try....

I think a mixed diet of lizards, quail and mice would be the best for my mexicana....been thinking of raising quail for years and paying someone to catch some sceloporus for me every year....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Tony D Feb 01, 2010 08:28 PM

John, I can imagine it can very easily be overdone. Most of what I know or think I know on this topic I learned from reading up on and breeding bearded dragons. One thing I remember is that if the supplements you provide are the precursor compounds the animal will only synthesize what it needs. That’s a very basic recollection but the information is out there.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

antelope Feb 01, 2010 10:50 PM

I can see that. I fed an all rodent diet from a colony I hand feed, not just cat food, lol! They get lots of things most people don't feed them, therefore, they get lots of natural vitamins via the foods I feed them. I totally understand the betacaratines and I know that d3 supplements are in vogue right now with many alterna breeders. Just not my bag.
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Todd Hughes

KevinM Feb 01, 2010 11:56 AM

Tony, I feel you hit the most important aspect right on the money with Rule No. 1. Not all snakes, even within the same species, are identical in their needs. Sometimes you gotta tweak around to get certain ones to blossom. Some seem more prone to go off feed, need more ventilation/less humidity, etc., etc. This aspect gets more prevalent when the collection grows and you start keeping other Genus/species.

Bluerosy Feb 01, 2010 12:29 PM

Unless you are a breeder worried about the bottom line, success is not gauged by how fast a snake grows or how soon and how many egg a female throws. Good body weight, muscle tone, resistance to disease and illness and behavior determine basic success.

I don't agree with that. Growing snakes can and should be fed as much as they will eat. These snakes seem to have a better survival rate and also do not turn off feed as easy as well fed snakes.

So if we are to teach newbs on proper care I think it is better to err on the side of frequent meals. As of the last 10 years on this forum and talking to folks they seem reluctant to feed more frequent or larger meals and they meet in the middle in some way anyway. To encourage maintenance feeding is not going to help a newbie undertand and may promote more 5 year old kings that are 20" or less..

Example would be a neonate or yealing kingssnake that is lean during the fall months. Even with temps raised this snake will more likely shut down and go off food completely if compared to a sibling which has been fed appropriatly. Thus the chances of survival and long term health is greater than a snake maintenance fed.

What works for a snake is leaving it in te wild. A snake can survive better with more choices. And that can never be duplicated in captivity. Espcially by newbs. In captivity we are limiting their choices for survival. So we have to make adjustments and one of the best ways is feeding as much as a snake eats DURING ITS FIRST TWO YEARS. After that a full grown snake can get obeses and especially if the snake is not in a breeding project. Excersie and searcing for food or mates is what they do in the wild. they don't get this in captivity. However..

..females that ARE bred in captivity need extra weight to ovulate and produce follicles and eggs. this can be stressful if the female is lean. Also males go off food during the spring and summer months due to phermones of females located nearby and get restless and refuse food.

So if a nsake wants to eat- feed it! Some species only feed during certain months during the year. Rubber boas for example. they tend to powerfeed (overstuff) themselves to reproduce but them shut down ealry and take a long winter nap. If you don't know rubber boas they need serval (5 or 6) mice in a sitting to survive the fall and winter in captivity.

But since this is the Kingsnake forum we should really stick to kings and not snakes in general. Just as we can't apply things to lizards or torts. Snakes of different kinds sometimes do need very specialized care and feeding.

My exoperince has been from maintenance feeding are snakes that succumb to captive conditions easier and may remain finicky problems feeders throghout life.

Also with so many newbies coming on here feeding kingsnakes pinkies when they are clearly hopper size is pretty common. it comes up here very frequently. So already newbies are afraid to feed their kings larger or more frequent meals. they have schedules as ridiculous as once per week on pinkies for a 15" kingsnakes , OR even larger than that.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Tony D Feb 01, 2010 01:33 PM

I wasn't slamming "power feeding". I was just pointing out that there is a range of acceptable conditions that will yield different results.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

CrimsonKing Feb 01, 2010 04:56 PM

"do not turn off feed as easy as well fed snakes."

I don't understand....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Bluerosy Feb 01, 2010 05:09 PM

"do not turn off feed as easy as well fed snakes."

I don't understand....
:Mark

Leaner snakes will shut down if you live a little more north than you (I know you live down in florida) when the winter season comes. This does is not as severe in S. Florida but where i am and in other colder states the snakes just seem to know what's going on outside and can't be triked by a warm heat pad. Even if they are kept warm inside, they just know what is going on outside..

I guess is because leaner snakes want to conserve enery more than a healthier snakes. One that is fed larger meals and more frequently will be much less likely to go off food when the winter season comes..
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

CrimsonKing Feb 01, 2010 05:13 PM

Still not getting it....
In your original line you say that the higher fed snakes will go off feed easier.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Bluerosy Feb 01, 2010 06:12 PM

Still not getting it....
In your original line you say that the higher fed snakes will go off feed easier.
:Mark

Now you lost me to.

Where did i say that?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

CrimsonKing Feb 01, 2010 08:20 PM

goofin' with ya but read the exact words you use.
I copied them for ya.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

FR Feb 01, 2010 07:22 PM

Its been my experience that the individuals that grow the fastest, breed the best and live the longest.

But, I think this stradgy is common to snakes, torts, and lizards.

To add to what you said. Your rubber boa example is commonplace with most adult snakes. Once they are successful adults, they spend very little time feeding during a year. In my experience with some individuals, a average of 8 or so good feedings in a year is normal.

But those animals have the ability to conserve energy all year, not just the winter. Cheers

Bluerosy Feb 01, 2010 07:39 PM

FR
I don't see where you disagree with what i said unless my typos went array..which is very likely

But whatever it was i agree with you that the fastest growing breed and live the longest.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Tony D Feb 01, 2010 08:52 PM

"It’s been my experience that the individuals that grow the fastest, breed the best and live the longest."

That has been my observation as well and this is certainly also true of wild snakes as well. How much of this do you suppose is attributable to the fastest growing snakes simply having superior metabolisms and or being more adaptable to the conditions at hand?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

JKruse Feb 01, 2010 03:21 PM

Well appointed set of do's and don'ts. However there is so much more between the lines. I've found pyros to be very forgiving of the smaller errors in many cases over the years, thankfully.

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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

DISCERN Feb 01, 2010 04:15 PM

I could not agree more! Well done my friend!
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Genesis 1:1

Tony D Feb 01, 2010 08:55 PM

Thanks Billy
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

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