Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Snake growth, how fast or how slow?

FR Feb 01, 2010 05:27 PM

First off, how slow or how fast a snake grows is not about commerical breeding or hobbyist or any other such thing. Its simply about the inherent growth capability of said snake.

Snakes as well as many other reptile species are a bit confusing because they are precocious. That is, they can and do reach sexual maturity at a much smaller age, then what is considered average size for that species. An example would be, cal kings average 3 1/2 ft. to 4 feet in length. Yet female can and do reproduce at 2ft in length. As they age, they continue to grow until they reach their size potential. So sexually mature adult cal kings range from 2FT to 4FT in length, give or take some inches. This does not have a dang thing to do with commerical breeding.

The speed as to which they reach sexual maturity is based on enviornmental support. I.E. food support and temperature support. In nature, if their is plenty of prey available, they grow fast and reach maturity quickly. If food is scarce, they grow slow or not at all and may never reach sexual maturity.

With all the reptiles I have worked with, varanids, colubrids snakes, boas and pythons, many iguanid lizards, etc. They reach sexual maturity at aprox. at 1/2 they average adult length.

Of course in captivity they are depended on us for the care and support. So the times and lengths are based entirely on how we take care of them.

Snakes have a genetic reproductive potential and a genetic growth potential. Which means, no matter what we do or nature does, they will not exceed a set genetic length or reproductive effort. Another poor example, no matter how much we feed a getula, a getula is not going to grow to 15 ft. ALso no matter how much we feed a female getula, she is not going to produce 100 eggs in a clutch. Its also true that they have a minimum reproductive size. Under a genetic limit and they will fail.

When i was young, baby snakes were released because the husbandry of the time did not support growth(or life for that matter). Most babies died or it took many years to reach adulthood. Rarely were they ever bred in captivity, particularly on a regular basis.

Then something happened to open my eyes. Actually two unrelated events opened my eyes. The first was, I did a lot of collecting when I was young, Like many here. I noticed that we found hatchlings, and young adults, and rarely any inbetweeners. So I went around to the local universities. UCLA, USC, CSF, etc etc. and asked, where are the inbetweeners? all I got was the run around, no one had an answer. (the answer here is, they grew quickly to young adult size)

Then I needed a job, so I got one at a nasty petshop, it was a DOcTors pets or something like that. Well we had a baby cal king and I sold it to a lady, this was in 1964 or 65. Well she asked me how to keep it, so I told her to keep in warm and feed it. hahahahahahahahahahahaha I was just a kid.

Well she brought it back about two or three months later and showed it to me. She said, she loved her kingsnake and was so glad about how good it was doing. She opened the box and the dang snake was THREE FEET LONG, when she purchased it a few months earlier, it was about 15 inches or so. I rearly had a heart attack. I could not believe what i was seeing.

I asked her, how the heck did you get it to grow so large and so fast. She said, I did what you said, I kept it warm and fed it. I said, fed it what? She said, mice. I fed it a mouse every day. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I forgot to tell her to only feed it once every two weeks. I asked, how did you keep in warm, she said, I put it next to the heater.

Well, it took me about two decades to figure out what that lady did and be able to reproduce her success on a regular basis. hahahahahahahahahaha and you folks think I think I am smart, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

So I became famous for raising snakes to adulthood in under two years. I started with all manner of colubrids then on to pythons, etc etc. All manner of snakes and lizards and even torts. My fastest for a king was 9 months from the egg to egg.

Since then, there have been several papers published that mentioned this occurring in nature. An example was Rick Shine, finding 9 month old gravid water pythons.

We also found that with wild montane rattlesnakes in our field study site.

Lizards hold the speed record, our local tree lizards can hatch in the spring and lay eggs in the fall. We have had several species of varanids(the smaller ones) go from egg to egg in four months. A number of species in under 9 months and many larger species in under a year.

So, without question, its nothing to do with commericalism, and a lot to do with genetic potential and support. In other words, if we do not support them, they will not reach their genetic potential. Which is also normal in nature.

So while we can choose to raise our charges slow, or fast, it can all be normal for that animal and money has nothing to do with it.

On the otherhand, if commerical breeders do not attempt to express the upper ends of genetic reproductive and growth potential with their stock, they will be out competed by other breeders who will.

So far, growth and reproduction with commerical snake breeders is achieved with food and temps. On the otherhand, the food we eat is created by hormones, antibotics, and gene splicing. So come on guys get off the commerical breeder kick. If really do not need to rationalize why your snakes do not grow fast or reproduce much. ITs your choice. But please let those that are interested in exploring the top end of their potential, do so. It really doesn't matter if its about money or not. Its about genetics. Cheers

Replies (10)

Jlassiter Feb 01, 2010 05:36 PM

Frank...
I agree with you on all points 100%...And that is great info.
I have seen substantially fast growth with all my mexicana and pyros be keeping higher heat than I used too and higher humidity as well....I VERY seldom see my snakes drink water....I think they get most of their water from the mice they eat. And the moisture in the air allows them never to dehydrate......

BTW....I have some mexicana, getula & pyros that will be 18 months old this spring & they should produce viable eggs this year...I am pretty happy about that.....

I also have some 6 month old Mex Mex that are nearing 20 inches already.....I am convinced that the husbandry they are getting is far superior than what I have given in the past.....Not perfect just yet...just better.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Antr1 Feb 01, 2010 08:37 PM

It's funny because John stated he has had good results keeping snakes at a higher temp then he normally would. I now keep the majority of my collection a bit cooler then before. I used to ntice that at different stages my snakes would go through growth spurts/feeding frenzies. I checked my records and these spurts would occur when temp readings in the snake room were in the mid 70's. I used to maintain their enclosures at 80 on the cool side and upper 80's on the hot side.

Now I try and keep the cool side closer to 70 and the hot side might reach 80. Now these snakes eat frantically all the time. What used to a growth spurt or two a year is now all year growth.

One thing I have noticed is that I can start with a pair of like sized siblings, feed them on the same schedule (twice a week offering food one at a time, until they stop feeding) These snakes can eat at the same rate, but grow at different paces.

-----
"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Jlassiter Feb 01, 2010 08:49 PM

>>It's funny because John stated he has had good results keeping snakes at a higher temp then he normally would. I now keep the majority of my collection a bit cooler then before. I used to ntice that at different stages my snakes would go through growth spurts/feeding frenzies. I checked my records and these spurts would occur when temp readings in the snake room were in the mid 70's. I used to maintain their enclosures at 80 on the cool side and upper 80's on the hot side.

Nope...I keep the HOT side Hotter and the COOL side Cooler....
My air conditioner is cranked down to 65F....i get cool sides around 68F /- and the heat cable will heat the hot side to around 90F....

I used to keep it around 72 on the cool side and 84 on the hot, because that's what all the "books" told me to do....LOL

Plus now There are combinations of choices such as Light, Dark, Cool, Hot, Dry, Damp...hot/dry, Cool/Damp, Hot/Damp/Light, Hot/Dry/Dark...etc...etc....LOL

I never kept snakes like that before...Usually it was a hide on the hot side and some newspaper beeding....oh yeah...and a water bowl that they used to ALWAYS use....Not anymore....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

varanid Feb 01, 2010 09:15 PM

I've wondered this...I have those baby Florida kings from bluerosy. I got them in October, I don't know how old they were, maybe a couple of months?? Now, Florida kings are known to get *really* big for getula right, like 5-6 feet?

The biggest one (hypo female) is already hitting 24" or so, and eating several hoppers or weaners a week (about 2-3/week). The smallest one (poss het male), eats MORE relative to his body weight but is still significantly smaller...but he's eating a hopper or weaner and pooping about every 2-3 days, still. He's maybe 16-20".
They're kept very similarly--same temp range, offered food as soon as they seem hungry...but they're not growing the same. And they're siblings, so it's not like they're from different lines. I keep 'em warm-ish...on the cool end it's room temp, on the warm end, upper 80s. And so far it's working. I'm sort of wandering if I can breed the hypo later this year--at this rate maybe she'll hit 3' plus before 2011!!! She's damn pretty too. I'm loving it. And hell, I've got a baby retic (early 09) that's almost 8' by now, hitting over 15 lbs which is as high as my scale goes.

But then I have my lamproprophis...they have good feeding responses for the most part, but just aren't eating or growing as fast, more like 1-2X per week, and much slower growth, despite processing and pooping pretty quickly. They'll eat, poop in 48-72 hours...but they just aren't growing as quick as the others. I've tried upping the warm end to the low-mid 90s but it didn't change anything over the course about 2 months.

Jlassiter Feb 01, 2010 09:20 PM

>>But then I have my lamproprophis...they have good feeding responses for the most part, but just aren't eating or growing as fast, more like 1-2X per week, and much slower growth, despite processing and pooping pretty quickly. They'll eat, poop in 48-72 hours...but they just aren't growing as quick as the others. I've tried upping the warm end to the low-mid 90s but it didn't change anything over the course about 2 months.

Okay...I'll bite...what's a lamproprophis?
I googled it and got nothing.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

varanid Feb 01, 2010 09:38 PM

African House Snake. I added an extra "pro" in there, soryr. It's lamprophis. I always do that >.< I like 'em but they're not growing near as fast as as the lampropeltis or retics. Two of them have been stubborn as hell about going to F/t as well...one of them will literally eat till she regurges though. I learned that the hard way feeding her leftovers...she downed that one last pinky and it came up the next day...

snakeadventures Feb 01, 2010 11:22 PM

My snakes are going to get a mouse each day for the next 3 months.
snake adventures

varanid Feb 01, 2010 11:42 PM

my getulas (florida's from bluerosy, speckleds from Tom) got about a mouse every other day for the first few months...Oct through late December. I've only slowed down since Christmas....down to 2-3 feedings a week for most of them. when my two retics were babies they got 3 rats a week or so...now it's more like 2 feedings a week since they've hit the ~1 year mark. *shrugs* I think juvies can eat...just like most other animals. Ever see how much more a baby mammal or bird eats compared to an adult?

Tony D Feb 02, 2010 09:18 AM

First off, how slow or how fast a snake grows is not about commerical breeding or hobbyist or any other such thing. Its simply about the inherent growth capability of said snake.

Agree and disagree. True that the inherent capability of the animal is the basis of "potential" grow but how that growth potential is realized is based on support. You frequently infer that nature supports the upper end of inherent capability. I do not believe this is the case

Snakes as well as many other reptile species are a bit confusing because they are precocious. That is, they can and do reach sexual maturity at a much smaller age, then what is considered average size for that species. An example would be, cal kings average 3 1/2 ft. to 4 feet in length. Yet female can and do reproduce at 2ft in length. As they age, they continue to grow until they reach their size potential. So sexually mature adult cal kings range from 2FT to 4FT in length, give or take some inches. This does not have a dang thing to do with commerical breeding.

Again agree and disagree. From a commercial breeding perspective it is not always advised to press females into reproduction when at the low end of the scale. If I have the choice between breeding a 9-month-old female at 24" or waiting till she was 18 months and 30", I'd take the latter UNLESS there was a market incentive to be among the first to bring a new form or morph to market and command the higher introductory price. The potential is natural, how you choose to manage your animals is another thing entirely

The speed as to which they reach sexual maturity is based on enviornmental support. I.E. food support and temperature support. In nature, if their is plenty of prey available, they grow fast and reach maturity quickly. If food is scarce, they grow slow or not at all and may never reach sexual maturity.

Agreed

With all the reptiles I have worked with, varanids, colubrids snakes, boas and pythons, many iguanid lizards, etc. They reach sexual maturity at aprox. at 1/2 they average adult length.

Agreed

Of course in captivity they are depended on us for the care and support. So the times and lengths are based entirely on how we take care of them.

Agreed

Snakes have a genetic reproductive potential and a genetic growth potential. Which means, no matter what we do or nature does, they will not exceed a set genetic length or reproductive effort. Another poor example, no matter how much we feed a getula, a getula is not going to grow to 15 ft. ALso no matter how much we feed a female getula, she is not going to produce 100 eggs in a clutch. Its also true that they have a minimum reproductive size. Under a genetic limit and they will fail.

Agreed

When i was young, baby snakes were released because the husbandry of the time did not support growth(or life for that matter). Most babies died or it took many years to reach adulthood. Rarely were they ever bred in captivity, particularly on a regular basis.

Agreed. I'd also add that I released mine because I thought I was the only person in the world who liked them.

Then something happened to open my eyes. Actually two unrelated events opened my eyes. The first was, I did a lot of collecting when I was young, Like many here. I noticed that we found hatchlings, and young adults, and rarely any inbetweeners. So I went around to the local universities. UCLA, USC, CSF, etc etc. and asked, where are the inbetweeners? all I got was the run around, no one had an answer. (the answer here is, they grew quickly to young adult size)

Disagree. This is a gross oversimplification of population dynamics. In nature juvenile mortality is very high and recruitment into the adult population is quite low. In season you see lots of juveniles because the environment is temporarily flooded with them. Those few that survive to become "inbetweens" are in the minority of the population. You find them, just not in any numbers. The thing is given a static population on average each adult will leave behind approximately one successful offspring behind. More than this and the population is either expanding into new territory or is responding to an environmental change that positively altered usable habitat and or prey species. Less than average survivorship and the population dwindles.

Then I needed a job, so I got one at a nasty petshop, it was a DOcTors pets or something like that. Well we had a baby cal king and I sold it to a lady, this was in 1964 or 65. Well she asked me how to keep it, so I told her to keep in warm and feed it. hahahahahahahahahahahaha I was just a kid.

Well she brought it back about two or three months later and showed it to me. She said, she loved her kingsnake and was so glad about how good it was doing. She opened the box and the dang snake was THREE FEET LONG, when she purchased it a few months earlier, it was about 15 inches or so. I rearly had a heart attack. I could not believe what i was seeing.

I asked her, how the heck did you get it to grow so large and so fast. She said, I did what you said, I kept it warm and fed it. I said, fed it what? She said, mice. I fed it a mouse every day. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I forgot to tell her to only feed it once every two weeks. I asked, how did you keep in warm, she said, I put it next to the heater.

Well, it took me about two decades to figure out what that lady did and be able to reproduce her success on a regular basis. hahahahahahahahahaha and you folks think I think I am smart, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Interesting!. Its always great to see the genesis of peoples ideas

So I became famous for raising snakes to adulthood in under two years. I started with all manner of colubrids then on to pythons, etc etc. All manner of snakes and lizards and even torts. My fastest for a king was 9 months from the egg to egg.

Since then, there have been several papers published that mentioned this occurring in nature. An example was Rick Shine, finding 9 month old gravid water pythons.

We also found that with wild montane rattlesnakes in our field study site.

Again this natural account does not completely correlate to what happens in captivity. This is a stretch but its the clear example that comes to mind. Lets look at oak trees in a mature forest. Every year they make tons of acorns, lots of which get eaten by squirrels or rot on the ground. A lucky few sprout into saplings but almost without exception are eaten by deer or wither and die in the shade of the mature trees. It's only when one of the larger trees is toppled and the canopy is opened up that the saplings at ground level have a chance to grow fast and thrive. Even then only one or possibly two will win out in the long run and then only if they can reach the canopy before their older neighbors close the gap. Its the same with snake neonates, only when there is a population gap is an opportunity afforded for several to sprint to fill it. This profound growth potential of young organisms is a simple survival strategy and utilizing it in captivity to the max has everything to do with commercial breeding. To make the point I'm going to quote your post within my response, " On the other hand, if commercial breeders do not attempt to express the upper ends of genetic reproductive and growth potential with their stock, they will be out competed by other breeders who will".

So far, growth and reproduction with commerical snake breeders is achieved with food and temps. On the otherhand, the food we eat is created by hormones, antibotics, and gene splicing. So come on guys get off the commerical breeder kick. If really do not need to rationalize why your snakes do not grow fast or reproduce much. ITs your choice. But please let those that are interested in exploring the top end of their potential, do so. It really doesn't matter if its about money or not. Its about genetics. Cheers

I can say for my part that I'm not on any "kick". I have just tried to point out that there are other strategies to successfully keep and breed snakes besides exploiting the top end of the genetic capabilities of the species. To this end I've pointed out that other measure can also determine success beside who got the most eggs and who got them first. This does not mean that those who wish to exploit the top end of the potential are not free to do so.

-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony D Feb 02, 2010 11:16 AM

I attribute the increased success I've had this year to increasing the spread of their cages thermal gradient. Doing this came out of our discusions / arguments so all this give and take was not for nothing. Thanks for your help
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Site Tools