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So, in discussions of the danger of colubrid venoms the idea that an allergic response could cause much more severe symptoms than you'd otherwise expect based just on the toxicity of the venom and the amount delivered. But, while this all seems plausible enough, I'm curious as to whether or not it's acutally happened in any verifiable cases. Allergy to bee venom is well-known and all that, but with snakes all I've ever heard of are occurring are allergies to antivenin, and the development of allergy after repeated exposure. The latter could presumably happen with colubrids, too, but is allergy something that those of us who haven't previously been exposed to colubrid venom have to worry about? Or should we just try not to have repeated envenomations by a given species?

Patrick Alexander

Hi mate

Allergic reactions to snake venom is a very rare event and is further largely confined to people who work with powdered venom in laboratories, serpentariums, etc. Nasal exposure to freeze dried venom has led to the development of severe allergies in quite a few workers, myself included. Upon an envenomtion, anaphylaxtic shock is then a very real eventuality (I have had it one three occasions, two of which were the very first time that I had ever been bitten by that species). To develop an allergy from repeated bites is a much less likely scenario (the nasal exposure route seems to trigger the formation of IgE more readily than injections).

However, the allergy has nothing to do with the venom other than the venom being the trigger. The symptoms that would otherwise be produced by the venom (whether neurotoxicity, coagulopathy, etc.) are not magnified by the allergy. Two utterly independent processes.

Ironically though, as our research has shown that potent toxins are virtually ubiquitous in the venoms of the 'colubrids', this means that symptomatic bites by 'colubrids' that were dismissed as allergic reactions were actually probably true envenomations.

Cheers
BGF
Venomdoc Homepage

`Allergic reactions to snake venom is a very rare event and is further largely confined to people who work with powdered venom in laboratories, serpentariums, etc. Nasal exposure to freeze dried venom has led to the development of severe allergies in quite a few workers, myself included. Upon an envenomtion, anaphylaxtic shock is then a very real eventuality (I have had it one three occasions, two of which were the very first time that I had ever been bitten by that species). To develop an allergy from repeated bites is a much less likely scenario (the nasal exposure route seems to trigger the formation of IgE more readily than injections).'

OK... hadn't even realized that freeze-dried venoms were a cause of allergy, though I suppose it makes sense. So I guess I can get bitten all I want, then? ; )

`However, the allergy has nothing to do with the venom other than the venom being the trigger. The symptoms that would otherwise be produced by the venom (whether neurotoxicity, coagulopathy, etc.) are not magnified by the allergy. Two utterly independent processes. '

You know, now that you mention it this seems pretty obvious, but it hadn't occurred to me. Perhaps because I'd heard the line about envenomations actually being allergic in nature.

Anyways, thanks for the info!

Patrick Alexander

Now what have we told you about snorting snake venom? lol

.

Now what have we told you about snorting snake venom? lol

Now what have we told you about snorting snake venom? lol

Now what have we told you about snorting snake venom? lol

Now what have we told you about snorting snake venom? lol

Now what have we told you about snorting snake venom? lol

Now what have we told you about snorting snake venom? lol

Now what have we told you about snorting snake venom? lol

But, while this all seems plausible enough, I'm curious as to whether or not it's acutally happened in any verifiable cases.

There are a handful of case reports describing allergic reactions to snake venom. Most involved repeat exposures to venom, but some occurred following a first exposure. Some speculate these first-exposure cases of apparent anaphylaxis could be due to cross-reactivity between a snake venom component and another allergen to which the individual was previously sensitized. I have seen one study out of Walter Reed Med. Center that demonstrated IgE cross-reactivity between certain snake venom proteins and hymenopteran venom proteins, suggesting someone with a stinging insect allergy could potentially react in an allergic fashion when exposed to snake venom for the first time.

...the development of allergy after repeated exposure. The latter could presumably happen with colubrids, too, but is allergy something that those of us who haven't previously been exposed to colubrid venom have to worry about?

No. The development of allergy requires a prior, sensitizing exposure to the allergen. If you have not been exposed to venom, there is very little chance you will be venom allergic. An exceedingly rare occurrence like the cross-reactivity I mentioned above could theoretically result in an allergic response to a first-time bite, but the chances for this are so small that you should not worry about it at all.

One related issue that I've seen proposed a few times on these forums is that venomous snake keepers can become sensitized to venoms just by performing regular routine animal maintenance. It was suggested that sensitization could occur through exposure to venom left in the cages by snakes as they eat, shed fangs, etc. There was even a suggestion that exposure to the animals¡¦ dander could somehow produce sensitization to the animals¡¦ venom. I myself wondered if snake feces might contain small amounts of venom and visualized the snake keeper dutifully cleaning the cages and inhaling aerosolized venom-containing crap dust. Interestingly, there is some basis for this thought. Snakes inject venom into prey which is then swallowed and digested. Venom proteins, I speculated, must be fairly structurally stable in order to perform their function when injected into foreign environments like prey. Could this stability allow them to pass somewhat intact through the GI tract and excreted in feces? Many of you reading this board may have "dust" or dust mite allergy - it is one of the most common allergies worldwide. One of the allergens to which people are reacting is DerP-1, a digestive protease that passes from the dust mite¡¦s gut into the environment (your pillow and mattress) in mite feces. So why not snake venom proteins? I asked Bryan about this and he said it was not likely because venom proteins would be obliterated by the snake¡¦s digestive machinery. Anyway, I am rambling off on a tangent now - this stuff is extremely interesting and I can gab all day on it.

Or should we just try not to have repeated envenomations by a given species?

I would recommend this regardless of allergy concerns. Seriously, repeated exposure to potential allergens like the newly discovered colubrid venoms could lead to sensitization. If you experienced a significant reaction to a colubrid bite like those that have been seen following some bites by Hydrodynastes, Heterodon, etc., I'd say your chances are increased for developing a clinically significant allergy to that venom. We are finding that the context in which a potential allergen encounters the immune system influences the subsequent immune response to the allergen. For example, if an allergen is introduced onto an inflammatory stage like you would see during infection or toxin exposure, our immune system responds to it in a more exuberant fashion than if the potential allergen is encountered under more mundane conditions. Perhaps this is why venom proteins seem to be such effective allergens - they not only represent allergens but produce the environment necessary for induction of allergy! Anyway, rambling again, will end up here.

I would be happy to ramble further if prompted to do so.

Cheers,
WK

Life with a lobster allergy is hardly worth living. -Patient of mine before leaving for a vacation in Maine.

`No. The development of allergy requires a prior, sensitizing exposure to the allergen. If you have not been exposed to venom, there is very little chance you will be venom allergic. An exceedingly rare occurrence like the cross-reactivity I mentioned above could theoretically result in an allergic response to a first-time bite, but the chances for this are so small that you should not worry about it at all.'

Ok. That's good to know... I've seen the argument quite a few times that hognoses (always seems to be that species, for some reason) shouldn't be sold as non-venomous, not because of the dangers of the venom, but because of the danger of allergy. I guess I should correct the next guy I hear giving the argument...

`I would be happy to ramble further if prompted to do so.'

So here's a question... why, after having been born in Indiana and living here for 21 years, have I suddenly developed an allergy to something that's flowering around now? Or at least I guess it's pollen... any chance of allergy to fern spores? That'd suck, but I suppose there are a bunch of them flying around off the ferns I've been growing... oh, and there are a bunch of mushrooms've been coming up recently. Too many potential allergens in this place...

Patrick Alexander

Yep, you're definately a herper ;-p

Hey now... the ferns -are- ferns. Otherwise it's pollen I'd be worried about. And growing that'd take more wattage than I care to think about. : )

Patrick Alexander

My husband and I are both around your age, and our seasonal allergies have been getting worse the past few years. I don't know if they usually develop at this age, or if the Midwest is slowly getting suckier. Maybe both. I don't think spores in general are big airborne allergy triggers, and neither of those plants (well, mushrooms aren't plants) produces true pollen.

`My husband and I are both around your age, and our seasonal allergies have been getting worse the past few years. I don't know if they usually develop at this age, or if the Midwest is slowly getting suckier.'

You know, now that I think about it, I know a bunch of 20-somethings with allergies, but I don't remember anyone in high school having much by way of allergies. Might be the age... and, well, -could- the midwest get suckier? : )

Ok, plenty of things I like about the midwest, but the air quality and the weather aren't among them. Either way, I'm hoping to move southwest at some point here...

`I don't think spores in general are big airborne allergy triggers, and neither of those plants (well, mushrooms aren't plants) produces true pollen.'

I know that fungal spores can trigger allergies when, for instance, the fungi in question are growing on your walls or ceiling tiles or whatnot. Wouldn't expect problems when the fungi are growing outside, but I don't really know. I don't expect most people come in contact with many fern spores either way, but when you've got a bunch of them growing in your bedroom that might change things. *shrug* And here's some fun trivia... although neither ferns nor fungi produce pollen, ferns do produce motile sperm.

Patrick Alexander

Pollen starts out as spores. Pollen grains are endosporic gametophytes... meaning they're spores that undergo a couple of cell divisions without exiting the spore wall, and after fertilization grow through the spore wall and produce gametes and so forth. I'll go to sleep, now...

Patrick Alexander

Unfortunately, you can develop allergies at any stage in life so you could easily have developed an allergy to something in your environment, even though you have lived peacefully with it in the past. Allergies to mushroom and fern spores are well documented, so your ferns could be the culprit, as could mushrooms of some kind. The fact that you are seeing an increase in mushrooms indicates the environment is more damp, and there are several allergenic fungi / molds that thrive under such conditions. Chances are actually greater that you are reacting to one of these instead of the mushrooms.

Best of luck,
WK

I should obviously have remembered about mold allergies.
I guess that explains why I'm allergic to rain now.
So I can't sleep when it's raining, and my husband can't sleep when it's sunny.

`Unfortunately, you can develop allergies at any stage in life so you could easily have developed an allergy to something in your environment, even though you have lived peacefully with it in the past.'

Lucky me.

`Allergies to mushroom and fern spores are well documented, so your ferns could be the culprit, as could mushrooms of some kind.'

Now that's interesting. The only allergies I'd ever heard of with plant spores involved some kind of microphyllophyte's (club moss or selaginella or something) spores being used as a non-stick powder on latex gloves. I'll just hope it's not the ferns... that'd be far, far worse than any lobster allergy.

`The fact that you are seeing an increase in mushrooms indicates the environment is more damp, and there are several allergenic fungi / molds that thrive under such conditions. Chances are actually greater that you are reacting to one of these instead of the mushrooms.'

Haven't noticed any increase in molds, really, but, then, I don't exactly go looking for mold. I imagine they've been doing well, though, as it's been a wetter summer than we usually get.

Patrick Alexander

Fern allergy > lobster allergy? Now this is truly interesting... especially in light of your fern sperm post above. You obviously care and know more about ferns than any normal human being should. Just what is it that you do with this bedroom fern jungle? LOL!

Cheers,
WK

Well... I've never eaten lobster, or had any desire to eat it, so just about any allergy to something I actually come in contact with is going to be much worse than a lobster allergy.

But, yeah, I like ferns. And not those ditzy frilly ferns they sell at Walmart... real ferns (well, ones from arid areas, anyways). Wanna make something of it?

Patrick Alexander

But, yeah, I like ferns...Wanna make something of it?

Nope, not at all. I’ve just never actually come across a fern enthusiast before. Come to think of it, I do recall something about them being primitive plants with an interesting natural history. Anyway, I’d like to mention one thing before leaving this venom allergy thread. You commented (jokingly) above about repeated envenomations as causes of snake venom allergy. Repeated envenomation is actually the factor that is best correlated with snake venom allergy in the medical literature. Sensitization via the respiratory route has been reported in only two or three cases, but as Bryan mentioned, it is probably more common than previously thought, just under-reported. Nobody has actually compared routes of exposure to venoms with respect to efficiency in allergy induction. The fact that the respiratory route seems so effective could shed some light on the general mechanisms underlying allergy development.

Cheers,
WK
p.s. You should try some lobster some time. You really don’t know what you’re missing!

I just can't get around thinking of lobsters as giant ocean living bugs... oh wait... that's because they ARE giant ocean living bugs. Although I'm sure they're tasty. I did have a lobster burrito once and it was pretty good. My husband is always making me eat various invertebrates.

n.b. bug = arthropod = crunchy
-----
Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

I just can't get around thinking of lobsters as giant ocean living bugs... oh wait... that's because they ARE giant ocean living bugs.

Yes, but this does not change the fact that they are delicious giant ocean living bugs.

My husband is always making me eat various invertebrates.

Anything really interesting? I took the kids to a herp show and a cricket company was selling lollipops in which crickets or beetle larvae were suspended as if in fossilized amber (ala Jurassic Park). They also had chocolate-covered crickets. Sure enough, the kids spotted these and started nagging to get some. Their mom was not in attendance, so I bought them some of each. It was entertaining, to say the least, to watch them thoroughly enjoy putting these goodies down. Maybe they will remember dear old dad when they win money on Fear Factor by eating all manner of bug.

n.b. bug = arthropod = crunchy

Most of these (lobster included) are much better if you first remove the crunchy exoskeleton. LOL!

Cheers,
WK

Strangely, although he'll eat any manner of mollusk or arthropod from the ocean, he said that he would absolutely not eat an insect. I personally don't see the difference. My parents don't eat seafood so I never had any growing up. I mean none. I didn't know what fish tasted like until I was over 18. Therefore fish and bugs were equally strange to me. And since I can now eat sushi, a cricket wouldn't be too much of a stretch. Well, maybe if they took the head off first.
-----
Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

`Nope, not at all. I’ve just never actually come across a fern enthusiast before.'

Well, yeah, there don't seem to be a whole lot of us around.

`Come to think of it, I do recall something about them being primitive plants with an interesting natural history.'

For instance, whereas the gametophytes flowering plants are just boring little blobs of only a few cells (pollen and ovules), the gametophytes of ferns are exciting little photosynthetic guys that can survive for years, and are the dominant form of some species...

`Anyway, I’d like to mention one thing before leaving this venom allergy thread. You commented (jokingly) above about repeated envenomations as causes of snake venom allergy. Repeated envenomation is actually the factor that is best correlated with snake venom allergy in the medical literature. Sensitization via the respiratory route has been reported in only two or three cases, but as Bryan mentioned, it is probably more common than previously thought, just under-reported. Nobody has actually compared routes of exposure to venoms with respect to efficiency in allergy induction. The fact that the respiratory route seems so effective could shed some light on the general mechanisms underlying allergy development.'

Ok. Good to know that.

`p.s. You should try some lobster some time. You really don’t know what you’re missing!'

And I hope to keep it that way. I'm with meretseger on the `giant ocean bug' thing. I prefer my prey items with fewer legs...

Patrick Alexander