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Where or who did they originally come from? I keep boids but I've been thinking about getting into some milks. They are not hybrids are they? Thanks...

I believe there IS a pure campbelli line of hypos, but given all the hybrid Pueb-durans out there and then breeding back to create an exact sp/ssp look there is, for me anyway, lots of questionability.

Ever see the Steve Osborn albino gray-banded kings? Man they look good, but have so much albino ruthveni in them to create what appears to be an actual amel alterna it's not even funny.

Trying REAL hard to not get the ladder out and get up on my soapbox, but the reality that I've always pointed out to the masses is that if intentional captive hybridization didnt occur, then gentlemen like yourself wouldnt be even asking such a question to begin with.

Sorry bro to have used your post as an example, but it's just further evidence to support it.

Heeeeere we go . . . .
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

"Heeeeere we go . . . "

No doubt Mr. Kruse!

I think there is/are some genuine hypo Pueblans in the hobby, but there is NO DOUBT in my mind at ALL that there are also many "imposter" man-made intergrades too out in the hobby(of many things for that matter). Some look far better than others, and I have to have one raised eyebrow whenever I am looking at these. From what I remember, Don Shores hypo campbelli have looked more convincing than other's I have seen out there.

Can't WAIT to see Osbourne come out with some hypo "pastel kings"...HAHAHAHAHHAAA!

uhh,......NOT REALLY!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I am debating with myself if purity of subspecies matters with regards to the various morphs out there these days. Most of the breeders who perfected them have their secret recipe and we just have to accept whether or not we like that particular morph of "subspecies" enough to forget about the "how" and work with them because WE LIKE THEM. Regardless if there are pure hypo puebs out there, I am sure the reality of mixed hypos getting crossed into any pure hypos accidentally by breeders is too prevalent to worry really worry about it IMHO.

>>I am debating with myself if purity of subspecies matters with regards to the various morphs out there these days. Most of the breeders who perfected them have their secret recipe and we just have to accept whether or not we like that particular morph of "subspecies" enough to forget about the "how" and work with them because WE LIKE THEM. Regardless if there are pure hypo puebs out there, I am sure the reality of mixed hypos getting crossed into any pure hypos accidentally by breeders is too prevalent to worry really worry about it IMHO.

Well said. Not to beat a dead horse here, but it seems as though the only way to validate "purity" of any "subspecies" is to have actually caught and bred the specimens yourself. And even that leads to questions with some individuals. Oh well ... life is too short ... enjoy!

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Joe

Life is too short. I do undertand some hobbyists quest for genetic subspecific purity and respect that. However, sometimes if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, the best you can say is its a duck!!

Well no, hybrids have been found in the wild. So even if you go out and catch something, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's "pure." There are populations of intergrade snakes as well.

I'm not a fan of hybrids, but I'm just sayin'.

Tim

>>Well no, hybrids have been found in the wild. So even if you go out and catch something, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's "pure." There are populations of intergrade snakes as well.
>>
>>I'm not a fan of hybrids, but I'm just sayin'.
>>
>>Tim

Yes Tim, that is actually what I meant when I said "And even that leads to questions with some individuals." I was refering to individual snakes, although it could be interpreted as people.
I should have been a little more clear.
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Joe

That's cool, Joe. I know this is a complex issue with breeders trying to make money, geneticists trying to make a name for themselves and questionable wild as well as captive bred snakes. Without any agreed upon "baseline" genetic data, I don't think we'll ever get universal agreement on what is "pure."

Tim

Well, as far as I am concerned, and many other's I know, it definitely does make a HUGE difference. I just can't roll with someone taking an entirely different subspecies and stealing the genetic mutation it displays, and be bred into an entirely different one, and sold as such. Some people only care about the "cool" colors and patterns they see. But I care about keeping a certain subspecies just that,.....a certain subspecies. That's really all there is to it for me.

Now some things like many of the hobby Honduran's out there, there is absolutely no way to reverse them now, and they are what they are, many can be a genetic "slurry" of one or more of the Latin American forms....polyzona, stuarti, abnorma, and even possibly one or two others sometimes. But this was NOT initially done on purpose to steal "cool" traits, and then sell them as something else,....this happened because of several things...

1) They originally were captured from one place, and imported out of another(convenience and politics).

2) They look very similar to "most" people anyway(if it has rings and a snout band, it must be a hondurensis..LOL!).

3) Most people don't have the slightest clue as to what the differences in these forms really are.

So it is very easy to see how all this got started in the first place, by pure accident, and just plain not knowing any better.

Now lets take the other side of the equation......some guy throws two FULLY-KNOWN, totally different subspecies, and throws them into a plastic tub so he can call the babies something they aren't,....THAT is exactly what bends me outta shape,...really simple as that. Now I certainly can't stop people for doing what they do, but by GOD, I will never endorse the practice whatsoever, as long as I live. I want to call something what it is, not what it resembles,......it's just the way I roll.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, I dont disagree with you on your principals. In fact, I think if I personally bred two het. "hypo pueblans" that I would have a hard time selling the normal babies as "pueblans". Especially if I suspected some hanky panky in the gene pool. However, I probably wouldnt have a problem selling the hypo babies as "hypo pueblans" because the MORPH and what it is being called is more or less true to itself. The odds of anyone else selling "hypo pueblans" with differing genetics than mine would probably be slim to none these days. I do like your term "hobby hondurans". Its probably VERY descriptive of the non-morph snake subspecies being sold these days. IMO if you want an albino this, white-sided that, or hypo whatever, you need to be realistic in your expectations of subspecific purity and be happy just having that particular morph in your collection cause you like it and it makes you happy on some sick twisted plane we herpers generally live on LOL!!

"Especially if I suspected some hanky panky in the gene pool."

....that line was awesome....
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Well, actually, most of the so-called "Honduran" morphs have a genetic blending of some of the other Latin American ssp. too, as well as the normals. Some are certainly much more genuine than others are that are out there too. There is simply no doubt about this, and I explain this in great detail on my sites home page. No way in HELL all the milks from all of Central America could POSSIBLY be all pure genuine "hondurensis", it is simply impossible to even entertain the thought.

In our hobby today(and certainly back in the day too), most people consider any milk with rings and a discernible snout band to be a "Honduran", no matter how many rings it has, no matter how tipped-up it is, no matter what the temporal band is shaped in relation to the parietal scales, etc...

Same thing with lots of other ssp. too......nelsoni/sinaloae quickly come to mind here. There are HUGE differences between nice examples of these two, but since virtually ALL people continually see mediocre examples of either AT BEST, and for the most part NEVER see outstanding examples of either one, it gradually becomes "accepted" that they are basically the same, and become accustomed to this, and accept whatever things are labeled as basically. No knowledge to me means you can't tell the difference, or even better, what the differences are that makes subspecies different in the first place.

Certain things in this hobby cannot be changed or reversed, and must either be accepted, or not,....but when people do some of this nonsense on absolute PURPOSE, it simply opens the door wider, and wider for even MORE confusion(like there isn't enough already..LOL). Again, this boils down to people who only care about the way something LOOKS, and other's who only care about what something actually IS. This is something that will always be, no matter what.

I was talking to a hybridizer a few weeks ago, and the dude was showing me hybrids on his table that to most people, would simply look like cleaner, more vivid versions of the genuine article, to me, this is one of the most frustrating aspects of it. And I think these types of crossed snakes constitute the most danger to the common collections of the hobby. See, most people simply do not know enough to know the differences in these things for themselves, which continually perpetuates the problem further yet every single breeding year.

The more I keep seeing posts like......"hey guys!,...what is this I have?, any ideas?, I was told..blah blah blah, by so and so that blah blah blah".....it just says it ALL my friends.

Anyway, all I can do personally is do what I do, and hope for the best, because I don't like much of what I see in the hobby one little bit, so I will simply do my part in preserving what many do their dmndest to destroy for other future hobbyists.

End of rant...LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, the situation you observed on the hybridizers table bothers the heck out of me!! Its the non-morph hybrids that look like "cleaner" representatives of one or the other of the parent stock that bothers me the most. I wonder how long it takes for ethics to fly out the door and these hybrids become "parent stock no. 1" or "parent stock no. 2" to move them out the door. And not necessarily by the maker of the hybrid.

When I first started attending shows and such back in the mid-90s, I took everything at face value. I would say "Oh, so thats what a Sinaloan Milk looks like", or "wow, pueblans are nice looking milks". Right or wrong, I could see the differences in the animals CLEARLY!! The sins had the nice wide red bands with narrow black bands around the narrow off-white bands. The puebs had nice almost uniform width bands of red, black and dirty white. Those and hondurans were about the only three milks I could (and still) visually differentiate fairly easily. The rest are a duck shoot to me LOL!!

Well said Doug! I can think of a person now who bred nigra with campbelli. All I can think of is WHY??

Scott
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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

Exactly Scott!,......

And the answer is always one of two things....

A)... someone is too lazy to get another of the opposite sex, so they figure,...oh, what the heck, I'll just make some snakes with these two I have,....or

B)... I just want to see what comes outta the egg!,....it's out of the ordinary, and hey!...I made it!,...hey!, look what I did!

Both of which are very irresponsible to me, and make no sense at all. The human thinking of..."what can I make" is taken way too far with snakes these days

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Definitely Doug! It all comes down to being irresponsible, with a I don't care attitude. I think another answer is greed, how much can I make off these, regardless of the consequences.

Scott
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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

and DOUBLE DITTO!..

Just because someone can physically DO something, doesn't mean it SHOULD be done....simple as that.

To me, it is sort of like adding Chevy Impala parts onto a Corvette. Simply MUCH more desireable left one way or the other!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think the only exception I will make to messing with mother nature is breast implants.

LOL!,...well, as long as they don't look like two coconut halves placed on a flat sheet of plywood,...but I still prefer the natural full look there too if given the choice. But don't get me wrong,....I will GLADLY accept those much more than I do the on-purpose man-made snake crosses..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Hahahahaha! I'd take just the sheet of plywood look to that of on purpose man made crosses....LOL!

Scott
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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Not sure if its irresponsibility or just plain old ingnorance driving these things these days. Its been discussed before and my opinion is there is a whole slew of deli cup herpers who know no better. They see crazy morphs, hybrids, sensationalism. Most are probably just following the flow ahd hype they witness at the herp shows.

"Not sure if its irresponsibility or just plain old ingnorance driving these things these days. Its been discussed before and my opinion is there is a whole slew of deli cup herpers who know no better. They see crazy morphs, hybrids, sensationalism. Most are probably just following the flow ahd hype they witness at the herp shows"

Actually, your above statement summed it up perfectly in my opinion. It is certainly a combination of all those things.

The term ..."monkey see, monkey do" applies perfectly in this case. If people knew more about the in-depth natural history of many of the snakes they keep, this practice wouldn't be NEARLY as common today,....they would appreciate these snakes and their individual specific/subspecific characteristics for exactly what the are. Hey, certainly nothing wrong with morphs either here and there, as I have quite a few of those too, but they are still the exact same species/ssp. I started with.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>> "Not sure if its irresponsibility or just plain old ingnorance driving these things these days.

I think it's both, plus greed!

>>Its been discussed before and my opinion is there is a whole slew of deli cup herpers who know no better.

But there are many who do know better and breed hybrids for the bucks and claims of something rare and different.

>>They see crazy morphs, hybrids, sensationalism. Most are probably just following the flow ahd hype they witness at the herp shows"

That's where education to newbies and the public come into play!

Scott
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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

"That's where education to newbies and the public come into play!"

That's just it!,....nobody wants to really "learn" anything about them anymore, they just want the instant gratification of "making" stuff just to see what pops out of the egg. If it isn't eye-popping enough....hey, they just move onto the next bizarre combination to see what happens there.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, I agree with you. There is no "education". Even the folks who REPEATEDLY post here with the same old newbie husbandry issues do not and will not listen when you try to guide them in a good direction. Its not what they want to hear. Most newbies dont give a rats hinney about where they come from, how they live, etc. They just want kewl stuff to post on facebook or youtube. Or stuff to breed so they can be a kewl vendor at a herp show. They are not buying a corn, eastern king, pueblan milk, they are buying "crazy weird pet snake". They havent read Pope, Kaufield, Hobard, et al. They never looked at guides and range maps to figure out what species live in their area, the types of habitat to look for them in, or what they feed on. Unfortunately, its not required anymore. Snakes are everywhere, and in great diversity.

Yep!,.....Kevin,...that is very accurate on the dynamics of how the hobby rolls nowadays. That's exactly what I continually see too.

One of the very sad aspects of how things are now.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

What took us years to learn by reading books, talking to the old timers who had been there, done that, herping in the fields. Can now be had in minutes, though not with the same depth. I guess ignorance can be bliss for those who profit off it and those who choose to skim the surface of reptiles.

Scott
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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

Well said Scott!,......

I feel more and more like a minority in this hobby every passing year!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thanks Bro! I don't think we are in the minority just yet. There are those of us who still hold true and do not fall into the next new trendy "Frankensnake" on the block gimmick!

Scott
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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

Shoot Scott, you and I both know you can take a newbie on a snipe hunt, or a snake hunt! If you can even get them off their @$$e$ and into the field, seeing a black tail rattler, pyro, or a nice bairdi in the field, just can't be beat, best we can do is take fine examples of them home and make some selectively propagated ones!

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Todd Hughes

Hahahaha! I think we would have better luck if we told them they were super morph cross hybrid snipes with snakes. I think that's about the only way to get'em off their duff and out into the field..LOL! You are right Todd, nothing better than seeing a nice snake in the field, heck that's more than half the fun of being in the field. Too bad many newbies will never know that kind of fun, when you can just find a site and buy online.

Scott
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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

Be vewy, vewy quiet. I'm hunting hybwids. Huh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh!

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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

"Be vewy, vewy quiet. I'm hunting hybwids. Huh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh!"

Don't you really mean the producer's of them???. And at today's rate, you will probably need a much bigger gun as well..LOL!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>"Be vewy, vewy quiet. I'm hunting hybwids. Huh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh!"
>>
>> Don't you really mean the producer's of them???. And at today's rate, you will probably need a much bigger gun as well..LOL!
>>
>>Right you are Doug. Good call!

Scott

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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

Yes, I do believe there are pure hypo cambelli lines out there. I used to work with some that came from Rob Stevens line of Bayou reptiles. I have no reason to believe they weren't pure. They look pure to me and based on what Rob told me, I beleive it. Here is one pictured.

I am also aware that Mark Bell has a line.

YTour guess is as good as mine as to what others have done with crossing hondos and peublans.

Dave

DNS Reptiles

that many/most/any of the hypo campbelli are not derived from "pure" animals? I put pure in quotations because it seems to have many meanings in the herp hobby world. Even when working in the field the idea of purity can be questionable (intergrade zones, species that appear to be phenotypically similar but are genetically different, etc). I too have talked to Rob from Bayou Reptiles and here is what he had to say:

"I got these snakes from Tim Ricks. They were from seemingly normal Pueblans. We grew these babies up and produced 3 hypos out of a 7 egg clutch. While all of this happened, Tim got rid of all his pueblans. The guy that bought them didn’t really pursue figuring out which were the carriers(it consisted of quite a few snakes). We have since bred them into nice Apricot lines which produce very nice offspring."

Either way work with what you like and be as involved as you can in conservation efforts because regardless of the purity a snake looks the best when it is crawling around in habitat!

BTW I now own DNiles pueblans, they are fun to work with and produce beautiful babies.

It seems a couple of herpers in St. Bernard were responsible for introducing new morphs of kings and milks onto the scene back in the day. Tim Ricks was one, and there was another fellow from St. Bernard who's name escapes me right now. I think his last name was Culatto or something similar. He and his dad used to advertise the best "goni" in town, or available, or something like that as well. I do see Rob a couple of times a year at local shows and hopefully he will be producing a show in LA again this summer that I plan to participate in. I have seen his hypo pueblans but never talked to him about them. I quess it would boil down to where Tim Ricks got his stock from. I actually think the hypo puebs hit the market back in the day before the hypo hondos.

Chris Culotta/Southern reptiles produced them as did...I think it was Bayou reptiles. They came a little after the hypo pueblan, but not the 2 generations that they would have had to be to qualify as hybrids.

That's right, and Chris C. was admittedly known by several to be very much the "basement hybridizer/crosser".

Let me just say this and leave it at that,.......all the hypo "campbelli" I have ever seen, show EXACTLY intermediate phenotype between hondurensis and campbelli.

None I have ever seen make me think,...HOLY SMOKES!, now THAT is 100% genuine campbelli!. They do however make me think.....hmm, I see BOTH traits here, and it looks totally intermediate meristic-wise in every detail to me.

The snakes certainly don't need to have awesome "sockheads", or super extra-wide inner white triad rings for me to be convinced either, just a simple far forward temporal band, lightly mottled snout such as this one. This is a typical campbelli phenotype, not extreme at all in either direction. I simply cannot get over the fact that they display a very set-back, thinner temporal band which is much more indicative of hondurensis, or even MORE accurately put, "Hobby Hondurans"

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

here it is..........

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, its easy to anonymously call someone out of the hobby 5 years a closet hybridizer but that doesnt mean he didnt have pure snakes. He was the first and only one with patternless LA milks, he had anery LA milks too....pure locality and both of those strains are gone from the hobby. He may have messed around with kingsnakes, but the TIMING of the pueblan and Hondo gene coming out...basically makes it impossible for them to be hybrids. It would have taken a minimum of 2 generations for this to happen and thats dog years in morph terms. Add to that Bayou reptiles got them at the same time....Now later on they could have been hybridized, but I think if you look at the body type NOT THE PATTERN, and the size you will realize they dont resemble Hondos at all. You wont see a 4' hypo pueb, and 4' hypo hondos are small.
Further, I really hate when guys claim something a hybrid on here with absolutely NO proof! Do your homework! If you werent around when they first hatched out whose fault is that? I had this really really neat line of Yellow ratsnakes that had 3(!!)recessive genes in the lines(Albino, lav albino and anery)and got rid of them not because they werent PURE(I can trace both sides back to wc morphs!)but because of this type of crappy rhetoric. Breeding is too easy, there are some guys that cut corners and misrepresent. Anyone standing on a Hondo morph's purity knows this I hope. One more reason I stay FAR away from Hondos....Its not all in what you see, thats the reason we like milks....variability.

Okay Jeff,....look closely at most ALL of their temporal bands and snouts after you come back from the optometrist's office, THEN tell me all of them are 100% campbelli!..HAHAHAHAAA!!

"do my homework indeed"..LOL!......BTW, were YOU there when the very first one's were hatched-out??,..and did YOU see the parent stock origin??. Then beyond that to suggest to me that NONE were ever introduced to any Honduran's afterwards is also very hard for me to fathom as well.

See, I "would" post a whole slew of pics of these here for people to look at, but my intent is definitely NOT to slander people's animal's here, but to merely point out the characteristics that I continually keep seeing in many of them.

I remember seeing killer-looking hypo Hondurans in 1995 that were not just "clean" with no tipping just prior to that, but these had VERY reduced melanin with ruby-red eyes too($2,000 bucks). They could have hit the seen just before THAT even, but I can't be 100% positive there, but in any case, I am quite sure there was time to introduce the trait into campbelli before that with some of the hypo Honds. prior to that. If not from the super-nice Honduran hypos, some of the slight lesser reduced one's from before that even. Then all someone needed to do was re-introduce some nicer-looking Hypo Honduran's later on anyway. Why is this so impossible to believe?

Someone give me the "PROOF" that there is no way this ever happened,... huh??...LOL!

When I see many that have these extremely thin, very set-back temporal bands with most of their parietal scales showing solid black, and full-blown strait across, defined snout bands, yeah Jeff, it makes me have to go .......hmmm???

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, we are usually on the same side here so I will go slow to keep you there. First I saw Shannon B. get a real nice hypo pueb in Orlando at the expo back around 95 I think. It would take 2 generations to get any results, lets say thats 4 years befors ANY modifications could be made(99?). Now add to that the fact that pueblans werent even DISCOVERED til the 1980s, and the founder stock has been minimal. Producing hypo pueblans now would be 25 years of inbreeding. Obviously doable. Differetiating patterns? Again, considering the founding stock, the true range of band counts is not likely that accurate. Because these snakes were so related all it would take would be 1 anomalous outlier to produce a "different" look. You, 15 years later, suggest hybridization(that wasnt common in 95)rather than variation?? Doug, inbreeding 10 generations I can tell you I can make a corn look like a milk,king,python or whatever.....just using corn genes.
Without casting the same aspurgones, I posted a thread asking about head pattern on St Marys co. coastals. I questioned it because having seen over 100 from that locale most (about 80%)lacked head pattern. Now I didnt accuse anyone of hybridization, I was openly curious about the prodominence of head pattern (%)lately in the hobby....if it had to do with natural occurance(WC), success in the hobby(genetic manipulation)or what. I got lambasted and I know what St Marys are supposed to look like. I would suggest YOU offer proof rather than asking anyone to prove the negative.
First find those that cross pueb x hondo. Then ask them how far back they have bred them. Usually they do this because they dont have the money to afford "pure" mates. If they dont have the cheese, they certainly couldnt afford a milksnake MORPH back in 95 when they were all huge $$. So if they dont have the genes where did they come from? Recent hybrids? Then you would have to aknowledge the pure ones came first. Otherwise, you are accusing breeders of milksnake morphs in the mid 90s of hybridizing. There werent that many of them, you can count em on both hands. Most are still around, and still have decent reputations. Tread softly.

According to this post the hypo Peublans weren't produced until 1999. Can anyone point to an earlier date than this?

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1784776,1785514

The first hypo Hundoran was a wild caught juvenille male Bill Love purchased from an importer, correct? What year did he get it?
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1784776,1785514

It doesnt take much to do the simple math and figure that these couldnt possibly be hybrids. Two generations et al. I'm dissapointed that such accusations carry so much weight.

I am just asking for dates, I am not making accusations. So far nobody has given the dates with any certainty so there is no simple math that can be done.

Here's an interesting old post that can be found on this forum:
Link

a year or two ago but I have met so many "different" folks in this hobby that it doesn't stun me like it used to. The idea of purity in private captivity is somewhat laughable to me. If the average hobbiest had an inkling into what professional organizations go through to insure "purity" and genetic variability they would understand that short of collecting an animal yourself the idea of purity in hobby collections is mostly faith based (and the only person I have ultimate faith in is myself).

Even when we have "pure" animals we often select progeny that display characteristics that are seldom seen in the wild. After a few generations our "pure" animals don't represent wild types at all. Again work with species that you like (and that hopefully spurs some further interest in the biology of the species) but if you want pure go out in the field, find the animals in their own habitat, and take a few photos (what the heck could be better than that?)

>> ... the idea of purity in hobby collections is mostly faith based (and the only person I have ultimate faith in is myself).
>>

Lol, thats a great way to say it. We do accept alot on faith for sure.

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Mark

I suggested F3 would be about the limit to what would be feasibly or statistically important. To each their own, but the inbreeding needed to create morphs to begin with is pretty bad practice. alb x alb and snow x snow starts to become ridonkulous at some point.

Very interesting Tim!,....and not so surprising either.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com