Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have an 09 anery corn i picked up at a show last month. she regurgitated her first meal with me and i waited about 8 days and fed her again she regurgitated her second meal. The prey size is small enough for her and the temps are fine. i know regurgitation can be a downward spiral but i have never experienced it. i have had a few snakes regurgitate in the past and i give them time to build up some digestive strength again and they have been fine. i am concerned about this snake and wonder if there is any advice or tricks i can try? i am not close to a herp vet so that is out of the question. basically what measures can i take to attempt to save this baby?

My advice is to wait two weeks before feeding the snake again.
Then feed it something smaller than normal (like a day-old pinky).

In the meantime do not handle the snake at all and disturb it as little as possible. Snakes that regurge sometimes go into a shed cycle, so watch for that. I consider a shed cycle a good thing, as sometimes snakes "cure" themselves and no longer throw up after shedding.

A few other things to think about:

Does it have hide areas in different temperature gradients?

What size enclosure is the snake in?
Sometimes people set up baby snakes in 10 gallon tanks. Though this may work, I have seen numerous occasions where it seems that size tank stressed out the snake and it did better (ate consistantly, was more calm, did not regurge) when moved to a smaller (shoebox-sized) enclosure.

Tim

Third Eye

thanks. she shed two weeks after she first regurgitated. i have moved her to a smaller enclosure and added more hides and ill go two weeks before attempting to feed her again

In addition to what Tim has said,..it could have easily drank some fouled water in the previous owner's care that lead to it getting undesireable pathogens in it's intestinal tract.

If it is kept in the mid to upper 80's on one end ONLY of it's small enclosure so it can thermoregulate, this should have been fine to enable it to properly digest it's meals. It is NEVER a good thing when snakes continue to regurgitate,..especially a tiny hatchling. This can take a heavy toll, and lead to it's death very quickly if not taken care of ASAP!. If it does not hold down a VERY TINY meal next time when fed(wait 10-14 days before doing so!), then I would strongly suspect the problem to be bad microbial pathogens in the gut, and it needs to have a dose of Flagyl(Metronidazole) administered at 50 mg.per kg. of body weight, then another follow-up does of the same 10 days or so after the intial one is given to kill the bad pathogens. If this is done...DO NOT attempt to feed it AT ALL during this time, as the medication will kill both bad AND good flora in the gut that it needs to properly digest. You must wait approx.7 days AFTER the last dose is given so the snake's stomach can get re-gain the acids, enzymes, electrolytes, and good bacteria needed to digest, or you will simply start the ugly cycle all over again.

If it does not hold down it's next VERY tiny meal when given in two weeks, the snake will very likely be dead without the proper dosing of the Flagyl. This stuff works wonders when applied to the correct circumstaces, and these could EASILY be one of them. I have administered Flagyl to snakes that have had this problem before in the past, and it works like magic!! Several years ago, I had a 300 gram Honduran start regurging meals, and did it again no matter how small the mice were. After I gave it the proper dosing of Flagyl,....BAM!, problem gone FOREVER!

hope the little snake gets better, because it's life all depends on what you do here,...simple as that.

good luck!, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thanks doug. My biggest concern is that the snake has gone a month already without holding down a meal. where can i get flagyl? how do i administer it?

You can sometimes get it at livestock feed stores, or any veterinarian. it comes in several forms, pill, liguid, and paste. You must crunch the numbers very carefully by gram weight, as it is administered at 50mg. per kg(2.2 lbs.). of body weight. I had 250 mg. pills from the vet, and the stuff DOES NOT desolve well in water at all for some reason, but no big deal!. I take a small shot glass, crush the appropriate amount of pill to a fine powder, and add approx. 2 to 3/10ths of 1 cc.(only a few drops) of water too it, and mix as much as possible. It will only mix so much, but when it is drawn-up into a syringe immediately after mixing, it all gets in the syringe anyway, so it is all good nonetheless. Draw it up with a thin rubber tube, thin eye dropper, or thin ball-tip stainless steel tube at the end of the tiny syringe(make sure not to inject any air into the snake). Take the snake and gently hold it totally upright, so when you pry it's mouth open, and slowly administer the liquid, the gravity helps it go down into the stomach where it is needed. Keep the snake in this straight up and down position for about 15 or so seconds, and genly take the tube out, and you are done. Repeat this process in another week or so(WITHOUT FEEDING any meals) until a week after the last dose. Do not worry about the snake not eating during this time.

For a 300 gram snake(very large compared to your hatchling), the dose is approx. 1/16th of a 250 mg. pill. Just make sure you do the proper math here, and things should be fine. One good thing about Flagyl, is it is very "reptile-forgiving" if the dose is missed by a little, but DEFINITELY try to get it right on as much as humanly possible regardless.

If you are not comfortable doing this, I would strongly suggest you take it to a vet anyway, and tell him/her to do it anyway. Tell them YOU will take responsibility, even if they won't if they aren't good with reptile medicine. This is very straight-forward, and is very time-proven. Just tell the vet you spoke to someone with 42 years of snake experience, only he lives several states away, so he cannot do it personally for you..

good luck!, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I personally would be very leery about self administering any medication, especially when trying to accurately ensure the proper dosage for so small an animal. From what I recall Flagyl is used as a dewormer...not sure how effective it is on other microbes which may be causing the problem. However it has obviously worked for you Doug so it must be effective.

All other suggestions would be the same as I would suggest myself though I would add double checking temperatures. Make sure you are using an accurate thermometer and, if you have one, a temp gun to measure surface temperatures of the hot spot and cool ends. I have had heat pads fail on me without giving any outward sign they have failed (ie I use human heating pads with 3 power settings and no auto shut off feature, though eventually I do intend to switch all my snakes to heat tape, once I get the adult rack built). I had one fail but the red light which indicates it is on and getting power...was still on..but when I placed my hand on the pad, no heat was coming off. Fortunately it was an adult ball python (who coincidentally wasn't eating for awhile..at first I figured it was her usual finickiness...but in fact it was because she was in a cooled state...) Once I replaced that heating pad, she was back eating normally.

So it would be a good idea to double check your temps etc. just in case something that should be working isn't. Also make sure you have fresh clean water every day for the snake, water certainly can help flush out the gut and keep acidity of the digestive system getting too high.

Oh and if you find it hard to find tiny pinks...try mouse tails from young adults instead...this may be a bit more easier for your snake too.
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PHLdyPayne

I think you are thinking of Panacur(Fenbendazole), which is the dewormer. Flagyl(Metronidazole) is for intestinal bacterial micro-organisms such as Entamoeba invadens,Trichomonas,Balantidium,Rhizopoda, Flaggellates and Cilliates. I really don't like to endorse many people doing things like this themselves either, but if it doesn't hold the next tiny meal down in approx. 2 weeks, and the poster doesn't take it to a vet, what other alternative does the snake have to survive really. That is why I suggested even it be taken to a vet, even if the vet has zero reptile experience, because if done JUST as I stated, there is zero rik with the medication, as long as it slowly administered down he snake's throat a few inches, and not it's glottis pipe(breathing tube

But to recap,......absolutely it should be seen by a knowledgeable reptile vet, there is no doubt about it,...especially if the snake is in the 80's and still regurging. Time is DEFINITELY of the essence here.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

the regurgitations might be my own fault. the snake was being housed in a 28qt tub with good hides and temps fine. i guess i get lazy or forget just because alot of baby snakes have thrived in similar conditions that i didnt think about the cage size. maybe it was stressing her out i have moved the snake to a smaller cage with good hides. will provide fresh water daily. refrain from disturbing the snake in any way keep the temps perfect, feed her the smallest pinky in two weeks and cross my fingers.

Okay,.."Temps are fine"....meaning exactly what?, and where are they being monitored from?, did it have nice tight hides when it was regurging before?,...and if you are holding the tiny snake within a day or two after eating, this could ALSO be the cause of the regurges, or at least a HUGE contributor. Something is definitely wrong BIG-TIME!,.....so I hope you can figure it out and get to the source before the little snake pays with it's life.

Okay, please listen here,....Keep the snake in very small, confined quarters and make CERTAIN the temperature DOWN ON THE CAGE SURFACE is between 81-85 degrees. DO NOT GUESS at these temps either!. They need to be checked with an accurate thermometer BEFORE the snake is placed in it, or else this will be the NEXT HUGE PROBLEM you have(well, the snake really). If it regurges a small meal next time when kept at these temps, you had BETTER get the Flagyl administered to the snake somehow, and follow my instructions to the letter to even have an ounce of hope for the little snake, it's really as simple as that.

Good luck with the little dude!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Ah yes I was confusing Flagyl with Panacur...and yes, you did recommend having a vet measure out and administer the drug. Must have slipped my mind while writing the reply.
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PHLdyPayne

I had a baby corn shipped to me, same issues you are seeing. Nothing I tried worked (meaning hides, heat, etc) except Flagyl.

I didn't even know the proper dosage, but I figured the snake was a gonner and suffering so I might as well try. I also knew from keeping rosyboas (which are sensitive to everything it seems like) that Flagyl is relatively benign even if the dosage is technically too high. I remembered what I had done with rosies, but baby corns are less mass than baby rosies.

I gave it Flagyl (my "rosy" dose), and boom, snake was fine.

Corns are adaptable. They don't throw up because the temps are 1 deg off or because their hide isn't tight enough. When feeding, they are the least troublesome snake there is. That is why I don't think most regurges are from that. Stress from shipping or moves, perhaps, but then, that stress opens the snake up to bacterial imbalance or protozoans that would otherwise be under control. So that is why I think Flagyl is often the best treatment when multiple regurges are occuring.

Think about it, your snake is eager to eat even though it throws up. That isn't stress. If stressed, it wouldn't eat in the first place. There is an imbalance of some sort. Either too little good digestive bacteria or too much bad bacteria or whatever.
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Mark

i am keeping that in mind as a last resort. I did not mention that the snake is not a good eater (i didnt think it was relevent) The first feeding he would not take the pinky so i put the two in a deli cup for about an hour and he ate it. the last feeding he wouldnt take the pinky so i put them in a deli cup again and several hours later he did not eat it. i rewarmed the pinky and brained it and he ate the pinky within the hour. The snake is also very active and alert. he wanders his small tub at night. seems strong and healthy. i am keeping my fingers crossed. i have found him the smallest pinky i could find (someone also mentioned mouse tails?) and in two weeks im gonna feed him and keep my temps as pefect as i can and keep my fingers crossed.

IMO Flagyl should be your first resort. I say this because it will not hurt the snake either way.

With the new picky eater info, also use a really small cage, like a shoebox, with lots of hides.

Well, maybe a trip to the vet first, but I bet the vet will just give you Flagyl.

If you can, contact some of the large scale corn breeders like Don at South Mountain Reptiles for example. See what he says.
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Mark

Go to harbor freight and buy a temp gun, they range from 9.99 on up I have my expensive temp gun and a 9.99 one from harbor freight and they both show the same temps. Check temps 1st. 2nd put him in a 6qt shoe box with enough shaved aspen to hide in along with hides that are small and tight at both ends of the temp gradient and fresh water daily at this point. 3rd take him to the vet for flagyl.....
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Brian Hettinger
480 Pythons
Contact us

Yes, another good call indeed. When it's environment are correct, and it STILL regurges, crossing the fingers no longer cuts it, and it's time to take positive measures............a correct dose of FLAGYL IS this positive measure!!!!

BUT!!, I certainly DO stress that it be done by someone who is competent in doing this. This is extremely easy, but has to be done in the correct manner nonetheless, just like almost anything

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Glad to see someone with the same type of logic I have

All that you stated was right on the money!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

just letting everyone know the snake is doing well and kept his last meal down. thanks for all the advice.