Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is the complete email correspondence. Thanks Brent

Brent,
Visitors and staff at Everglades NP have observed numerous live and dead pythons following the cold snap. The consequences to the population are not yet clear, but researchers at the University of Florida and Everglades NP are compiling the existing data to prepare a summary. I expect there will be press coverage of that summary when it is released. Although the short-term consequences to the population are undoubtedly negative to the pythons (many dead pythons that would not otherwise be dead!), the long-term consequences are unknown at this time.
Cheers, Gordon

Gordon Rodda
USGS Fort Collins Science Center
2150 Centre Ave., Bldg. C
Fort Collins CO 80526
(970) 226-9471
(970) 226-9230 (FAX)
Gordon_Rodda@usgs.gov

----- Forwarded by Gordon H Rodda/BRD/USGS/DOI on 02/03/2010 10:15 AM -----
From: Pam Fuller/BRD/USGS/DOI
To: Gordon H Rodda/BRD/USGS/DOI@USGS
Date: 02/03/2010 09:41 AM
Subject: Fw: Burmese Python survival

I defer to you...

Pam Fuller
USGS/BRD
Nonindigenous Aquatic Species Program
Southeast Science Center
7920 NW 71st Street
Gainesville, FL 32653

(352) 264-3481
(352) 378-4956 (fax)
PFuller@usgs.gov
http://nas.er.usgs.gov

----- Forwarded by Pam Fuller/BRD/USGS/DOI on 02/03/2010 11:39 AM -----
From: Robert A Kimmel/RGIO/USGS/DOI
To: Pam Fuller/BRD/USGS/DOI@USGS
Date: 02/03/2010 11:38 AM
Subject: Fw: Burmese Pythons

----- Forwarded by Robert A Kimmel/RGIO/USGS/DOI on 02/03/2010 11:37 AM -----
racin@adams.net
02/03/2010 11:29 AM

To: ask@usgs.gov
cc: archive_ask@usgs.gov
Subject: Burmese Pythons

Transaction=GSFYS3Z6 [03FEB2010 16:29:35UTC]
Customer email: racin@adams.net
Customer: Brent
Customer phone: Beilstein
Subject: Burmese Pythons
Originating page: http://www.usgs.gov/
Primary response: ask@usgs.gov

USGS PERSONNEL: This email was generated through the Contact USGS system. When replying to the customer PLEASE BE SURE TO CC archive_ask@usgs.gov. (Customers, please do not send email to archive_ask, as it will not be answered.) If you answer by phone, simply forward this email to archive_ask@usgs.gov. You can see more information about replying to customers at (USGS only).
========================================================

Do you have information regarding the survival statistics of Burmese pythons in Florida during last months cold spell in Florida?

Thanks
Brent Beilstein

The weather in the only place that BUrms are proven to be established was too cold for Burm comfort. But that was nothing. It was fully 20 degrees colder than that in North Florida and clearly noe would have survive up there.

This means the two reports written by you, that are being used by the USFWS as evidence of the threat of nine species of large constrictors is fundamentally flawed. This is exactly what was said by twelve leading world renowned Reptile experts said declaring that your paper was fundamentally flawed, and in fact had a predetermined conclusion. The right thing I think for you to do now is to issue a public statement that you believe that what was written needs to be retracted and not used at all and that you too now agree with the other twelve who already on record as stating that your paper is wrong. This way you will show that you did not have a predetermined and that your conclusions were simply incorrect.
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Sorry I did not proof read the post above. Upon reading it, I look like the idiot I was hoping to avoid. Oh well. Too late. Now everyone knows. See. Here is proof that Gordon Rodda can do it too. It's pretty easy to admit when your wrong. I just did.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Gordon Rodda will never admit he and his report are wrong

He will make excuses and alternative scenarios

As we know Right now his whole report is really only a "scenario"

A Very Incorrect "Scenario"

Those papers are an unproven fact, yet they will continue to tout
them as undeniable science

Even as the population of Burms and every other tropical reptile species
in Florida dies off from the after effects of the cold snap

Frustrating

. . . Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

>>Gordon Rodda will never admit he and his report are wrong
>>
>>He will make excuses and alternative scenarios
>>
>>As we know Right now his whole report is really only a "scenario"
>>
>>
>>A Very Incorrect "Scenario"
>>
>>Those papers are an unproven fact, yet they will continue to tout
>> them as undeniable science
>>
>> Even as the population of Burms and every other tropical reptile species
>>in Florida dies off from the after effects of the cold snap
>>
>>Frustrating
>>
>>

What I would like to know is why the DOI is in such a hurry to start the Lacey Act process, given that the results from the South Carolina Burm experiment have NOT been released yet, and supposedly won't be released until after the 60 day feedback period. At some point these guys need to be investigated for unethical behavior.

sweet...look at all those potentially useful names, email addresses and phone numbers...

I'm just sayin....

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

HAHA! Yep N/P
-----
Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Please remember this is helpful information. He was gracious enough to get back with me and admitted that they were finding dead Burms after the cold spell. Regardless how your personal feeling are please remember we are all here for the same purpose,

KEEP UP THE FIGHT!

Thanks
Brent

Please be polite. I think we do ourselves a favor in being rude. That can only be used against us.

Rodda's contact information isn't a secret. It's easy for anyone with the ability type into a search engine field to find it.

The recent cold snap shines the light of truth so brightly, I think there is a chance that a scientist with an interest in preserving his own academic credibility, will admit to, what is proving to have been a gross miscalculation. Call me crazy, but... it could happen.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

They have NO choice but to tell the truth. There are too many eyes on them at ground zero. If someone ask I believe they HAVE TO ADMIT THE SNAKES COULD LIVE NO PLACE ELSE BUT HERE. The cold DID decimate substantial numbers of Pythons here. North of Lake Okeechobee it gets that cold every year....I DON'T BELIEVE THEY COULD EXIST ANYWHERE EXCEPT HERE...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yet direct.

I doubt I'll get a response as I didn't really leave much of a way to provide answers to my questions without him outright admitting his science is junk. Here's my email:

Mr. Rodda,
Someone recently shared with me an email written in response to this question:
“Do you have information regarding the survival statistics of Burmese pythons in Florida during last months cold spell in Florida?”

Your reply was this:
Visitors and staff at Everglades NP have observed numerous live and dead pythons following the cold snap. The consequences to the population are not yet clear, but researchers at the University of Florida and Everglades NP are compiling the existing data to prepare a summary. I expect there will be press coverage of that summary when it is released. Although the short-term consequences to the population are undoubtedly negative to the pythons (many dead pythons that would not otherwise be dead!), the long-term consequences are unknown at this time.

I have several questions if you’re willing to take the time to answer them.

First, will the researchers at UF be compiling data on only the pythons that died during or immediately after the cold snap, or will those that developed fatal respiratory tract infections or other ailments that lead to their death weeks or months later be included?

Second, given that “numerous” pythons couldn’t survive a 2 week cold snap in South Florida, have you reconsidered the following quote: “Most species can probably aestivate for months to minimize exposure to seasonally inclement weather or food unavailability…” in your paper entitled: Giant Constrictors: Biological and Management Profiles and an Establishment Risk Assessment for Nine Large Species of Pythons, Anacondas, and the Boa Constrictor?

Third, with this new information about the inability of an entire population to survive a very mild cold snap (not even freezing temperatures), do you have any plans to call a press conference to update the world regarding any updates or revisions to your papers in relation to pythons surviving north of South Florida? (Aside from the press conference mentioned above that you expect the U of F to hold) After all, latitudes north of Lake Okeechobee see weather like that yearly and areas north of I-10 fall below freezing several times each winter. If “numerous” pythons are dying in South Florida due to mildly cold weather, doesn’t it stand to reason that even more, if not all, would die (if they existed) in areas north of that area because those areas are appreciably colder in the winter? This theory lends credence to the non-establishment of these animals in other parts of the US.

Fourth, what are your thoughts on this picture of a frozen boa (mislabeled as a python) taken in Broward County, Florida? http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/juice/2010/01/manatees_pythons_cold_weather_florida.php
Does this give you cause to reconsider including boa constrictor in the paper referenced above? Barker and Barker suggest that boas do not have the instincts necessary to drive them to seek shelter from cold weather based on a population study, this frozen boa is certainly proof of that and those two pieces of evidence should absolutely be considered. Another point that should be considered is that boa constrictors have, for thousands upon thousands of years, lived just south of the US border in Mexico, yet they’ve never traveled north to actually cross the political border. If these animals are migratory and they can withstand cool temperatures, shouldn’t they already be native species to the US? Does this give you cause to retract your findings?

The first study published in regards to Burmese pythons and their boundaries in the US included the Indian python. Those with more experience with Indian pythons than you or I have determined that these snakes can withstand far cooler temperatures than Burmese pythons and are appreciably smaller as well. They are considered separate subspecies. Would you mind sharing why the Indian python was included given that there are fewer than 100 within the borders of the US giving them great value (less propensity to be released) and there has never been an Indian python found in the wild? The speculation is that they were included so that the average temperature threshold of the Burmese python could be lowered via “averaging” (due to the inclusion of the Indian python) and therefore the range map expanded.

Finally, the two main papers published by the USGS in regards to Burmese pythons and Indian pythons as well as the other “large” constricting snakes were peer reviewed. Do you happen to know if any experts with experience raising these animals in captivity were solicited for their perspective?

I thank you graciously for your time and I look forward to your reply.
Jonathan Brady

We'll see if he replies... If he does, I'll post it here.
jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Great Jonathon but many taxonomist are now considering giving full specific status to Python molurus and to Python bivittatus. DNA is being looked at now I understand. There is a thought these are NOT even subspecies anymore....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

This quote:
"the long-term consequences are unknown at this time."

is government-employed-scientist speak for: "we're gonna need lots of time, and even more money to study this"

Man, this guy is GREAT with words! It actually nauseates me...

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Biological Profile
Reed, R.N. and G.H. Rodda. 2009. Giant Constrictors: Biological and Management Profiles and an Establishment Risk Assessment for Nine Large Species of Pythons, Anacondas, and the Boa Constrictor: U.S. Geological Survey.

Chapter Four–The Indian or Burmese Python, Python molurus
3.5 Introduced Ranges

Outside of Florida there are no known introduced populations of this species.

Compiled by: National Biological Information Infrastructure (NBII), Felix A. Grana Raffucci, Technical Advisor, Puerto Rico Department of Natural & Environmental Resources & IUCN SSC Invasive Species Specialist Group (ISSG)

Details of this species in Puerto Rico
Status: Alien
Invasiveness: Invasive
Occurrence: Established and expanding
Source: The Reptile Database 2007Arrival Date: 1998
Introduction: Intentional Species Notes for this Location:
Management Notes for this Location:
Location Notes:
Impacts:
Reduction in native biodiversity: In Puerto Rico there are concerns that the Burmese python may outcompete the smaller natives boas namely the Puerto Rican boa (see Epicrates inornatus in IUCN Red List of Threatened Species), the Mona Island boa (Epicrates monensis monensis), and the Virgin Islands boa (Epicrates monensis granti). Burmese pythons are also considered a threat to humans, specially to children, pets, farm animals, and native species of amphibians, birds, and reptiles.Last Modified: 8/08/2008 2:37:24 p.m.

July 31 2009 FHF
(Mikey Fresh ) Mike_Rochford ENP based scientist

" I do know that there are burms in Puerto Rico but I don't know anything about them other than the fact that they are there. One of my co-workers had expressed some interest in working with them but I don't know if that's feasible right now.

Mike "

The USGS National Biological Information Infrastructure and IUCN Species Survival Commission's Invasive Species Specialist Group are celebrating 5 successful years of partnership.

It seems these two " partners " are telling distinctly different storys, Why? ............... was it all a lie? In the big report Rodda states "Outside of Florida there are no known introduced populations of this species." but Felix A. Grana Raffucci IUCN report says that in Puerto Rico , burms are " Established and expanding " this confrimed by as shown above by one of Roddas team members when I asked him about it.

It seems a little strange why nothing about Puerto Rico is ever mentioned ...........................by certain scientist ...............the information has been made public by the IUCN and Im sure Rodda knows all about it so why are they keeping it on the down low................

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Boa constrictors are feral all over Puerto Rica. I know this personally as I regularly receive feral snakes from the government there. I HAVE NEVER HAD A FERAL BURMESE IN OVER 5 YEARS OF RECEIVING FERAL HERPS ON A SOMEWHAT REGULAR BASIS [2-5 TIMES ANNUALLY]. If they were there I think I would have gotten some in....personal communicationr Figuroa, Mayaguez, P.R. indicates there are none there so are they mistaking Boa Constrictors for Burmese?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

In late 80's and early 90's I used to help a good friend that work at the serpentarium in the Puerto Rico zoo. The zoo is located in Mayaguez - west part of the island. During that time I witness a large group of Boa c. imperator being kept in several enclosures (display purpose). A few of them escape and what happen next is history.......

The climate in PR is a perfect environment for these Boa c. imperator to reproduce. Becoming a nuissance,some of these imperators were sold as Puerto Rico boas. I remember seen a couple been sold in some reptile classifieds and was able to witness a couple here in FL. The only boa that is well represented in PR is the Epicrates inornatus. The Boa c. imperator has never reached the Mona Island to affect the rare Epicrates monensis monensis.

Burmese Pythons have never been a problem in the island but we have to keep in mind that most native don't know the difference between the two.

Interesting topic........

Orlando

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Dr. Orlando Diaz
LEGACY REPTILES
www.legacyreptiles.com

Thank you Orlando for responding to this forum...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Check this out:

www.issg.org/database/species/ecology.asp?si=1207&fr=1&sts

"In Puerto Rico there are concerns that the Burmese python may out-compete the two native boa species: the Puerto Rican boa (Epicrates inornatus) and the Mona Island boa (Epicrates monensis), which are smaller in size than the Burmese python."

I wish the author would have elaborated on the "concerns", since
it seems reasonable to infer, from that statement, that there are feral pythons down there.

I sent a p.m. to Orlando this morning to post and clear this up. Are these feral Boas only on the west end of the island around Mayaguez? The zoo there sends me the boas and I take them mostly as a favour. I use a lot to feed "Albert"...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>I sent a p.m. to Orlando this morning to post and clear this up. Are these feral Boas only on the west end of the island around Mayaguez? The zoo there sends me the boas and I take them mostly as a favour. I use a lot to feed "Albert"...thanks
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks Tom. I e-mailed the ISSG contact, and he responded promptly. He said he will look into the matter asap and correct any errors and/or make clarifications. I'll send the actual e-mail exchange to anyone who wants it, just PM me.

Thanks,
Ed

No matter how successful the Boas, Burms, King Cobras, Orangutans, and Polar Bears are on Perto Rico, they are never going to be invading the continental United States as a result.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

I think in the last cold front since the ice caps are melting we had some Ploar Bears move in down here and because of a paucity of seals here their feeding on Burmese Pythons...LOL...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

No matter how successful the Boas, Burms, King Cobras, Orangutans, and Polar Bears are on Perto Rico, they are never going to be invading the continental United States as a result.
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr

Jeff,
I think you forgot the most important of all.......

What about the CHUPACABRAS?.......It is all over the place.....LOL

Orlando
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Dr. Orlando Diaz
LEGACY REPTILES
www.legacyreptiles.com