Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,

wanted to toss up a couple comparison shots of both the rarer Sierra de San Pedro Martir agalma and the much more common Sierra Juarez agalma. Both are very different snakes, coming from very different mountain ranges in Baja, Mexico.

Seems to me there are a number of agalma circulating out there that are neither Martir nor Juarez, but rather outright crosses of both that, to the untrained eye, may look one in the same. Here are some differences:

Martir agalma -- more closely related to the Todos Santos Island mountain kingsnake (herrerae), elongated head, white band on the head is set way back from where the eyes are, more white crops up onto the rostral area and head pattern is differentiated by intermittent white splotches or prongs that jut downward towards the nose. Martir agalma tend to be smaller in overall girth and length, sustain a lower band count, and the triads are much tighter as opposed to their northern cousins:

Sierra Juarez agalma -- heavier-bodied, greater number of triads, white bands generally wider in comparison to southern cousins, longer length, stouter head/more triangulated, white head band begins just behind or at the eye and doesnt prong downwards, more mottled head pattern in some specimens:

Questions???????????
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Yeah Jerry, I know my one "flame head" pair is a cross between the two ranges. I love them anyway and think they are awesome looking. There is a couple of pics just posted on the mt. king forum that I looked at and the heads appeared to be very martir to me.

Oh indeed, they ARE awesome and definitely something to love. I also have crosses which are the ones that pump out the hypo-e snakes which I make very clear. It's about honesty and education, as there are some folks that have what they think is a pure Juarez or a pure Martir when they actually don't. Sad, but true. Soem people will do anything for a buck right down to mis-representing what they produce or re-sell.

My hypo-e snakes have the heads of a Juarez, the male has the body of a Juarez, but the female has more of a Martir build. Both have very tight bands indicative of Martir influence as well. Many agalma out there today are related to the Martir/Juarez crosses created by a couple individuals back in the early/mid-90's. Every year it seems someone else comes outta the woodwork showing me their agalma and I'm like "uh oh, there's something else going on there". Some accept it, and some don't.

The snakes posted in the other forum I know the history on, and for Jeff Teel (jeph) I feel horrible for as he got the old screwball on what were promised to him to be pure Martirs when they, in fact, were not. I refer to the albino alterna example once again......take two very different snakes, then intentionally breed the offspring over generations to the snakes that have the desired "intentional look", and voila.....you have what appears to be something pure, but as Jeff Goldblum said in Jurassic Park, "life finds a way"......slight nuances can be detected phenotypically. From my VERY Juarez looking hypo-e's, I always get one out of the clutch that looks more Martir than it's siblings.

So again, just pointing out the differences for educational purposes and the "buyer beware" factor or those that care about some level of "purity" and historical data.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Same exact thing being talked about on the milk forum(again).

And of course, I stated the very same things you just did bro, it's as simple as that

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"Questions???????????"

Just one!,..............can I breed those to my Arizona Mt. king and make awesomely cool babies????

LOL!!

Seriously bro, that stuff is very interesting to me about the phenotypic differences between the two locales. Very similar to the differences in say a generic Sinaloan, and the Cosala, Mexico locale. Similar, yet VERY different.......great presentation buddy!

BTW, is there any scale-count differences in the meristics between the two that you know of at all?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

..........i hate you.................

LMAO!!!!!!!!
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I like the more mottles head pattern. Asymetry is not as noticable.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Wow, those head patterns are amazing!
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Well hell Jerry, at least I know my eye for martir and juarez is getting better!!! I knew there had to be some martir infuence in those posted on the mt.king forum. Heads looks long and the snout very rounded. I am learning-----who knew that could happen!!

Very cool pics and info Jerry! Just curious, what's the band count between the two?

Scott
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How many nuns could a nunchuck chuck if a nunchuck could chuck a nun?

Jerry,
Do you know about how many wild Martir kings were brought into the US back in the day? I've been curious if the number of WC Martir z's that made it across the border is less than 10 specimens (a number I heard somewhere in the past.)
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Mark

Mark,

that is a riddle that i don't believe anyone actually knows entirely. I have heard of perfectly healthy Martir agalma being confiscated and withered away under the auspices of the authorities, or similar situations except a few went to zoos. I know of a FEW that made it into private collections as well over the years.

Coincidentally one of the very first agalma to be found by science was, in fact, a Martir specimen. SO it's almost impossible to say, but speculations are at best all we have.

Will I ever get down there and find one? Before I die, yessir... But I might wait until the violence eases up. I can dodge alot of things but bullets are another story.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Will I ever get down there and find one? Before I die, yessir...

You can play the lotto too, probably a better chance!

Also Jerry, wanted to say awesome snakes...whether the Martirs are true or not, the examples you posted are amazing looking snakes.
Jeff

Thanks for the back-handed comment.....Jeff if you have something to say, then please do so. Your subliminal messages arent appreciated, and I'm quite surprised after our cameraderie over the last few years. I know what I have. Period. Don't be a hater 'cause you got screwed and haven't found one in the field on numerous tries. I take the commentary as competetive and childish.

I'd hate to think you're another two-face in this all-too-often-sketchy hobby we share, but those comments almost nails it for me. One shot at damage control.....use it wisely.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

LOL, I'll send you an e-mail, feel free to copy and paste. But let me say here, I even put in no matter what, the animals you posted are awesome. I don't feel I'm acting or posting like a child nor do I feel like it was a black handed comment. To me, and always has been, when working with locale animals it isn't 100% unless you caught it yourself, maybe thats to harsh or I'm just hard on myself but that is how I feel. It is all personal opinion, if you trust your source was 100% martir animals then you have what you have,period. I think anyone would agree on that. Anyways, again, awesome animals and sorry you took such offense to the replys,
jeff

ps- Oh, also I don't feel bad because I have never seen one in the field, and every trip I take and don't see one I will not feel bad either-(it's awesome to just be there). It is a hard locale-(with my VERY minimum experience there, who am I to say if it is a hard locale or not) but with the "talk" of it being a hard locale, why would I feel bad if I don't see one. Of course the whole time your in the field you have such high hopes of finding one, especially there. But I have never, nor will I hate on anyone who does find one, sh!t, that's awesome and I hope some of the people I know who actually put in the effort to observe them do so, hopefully they get soem good photos and then I can see for myself waht they really look like.

I'd hate to think you're another two-face in this all-too-often-sketchy hobby we share, but those comments almost nails it for me. One shot at damage control.....use it wisely.

How on earth would I be coming off two-faced...?. And rhe damage control comment, I don't get it...?

Convo is officially taken to e-mail........
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."