Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've scoured the internet for videos, pics and tutorials of different backgrounds and I'm really impressed with what people have created. For the most part it seems there are two types, a background created with greatstuff and covered with silicone and coco fiber. And the other created out of carved styrofoam painted with a sealer or concrete mix.

At this point I'm more attracted to the styrofoam backgrounds that the cocofiber ones. Are there any pros/cons to either?

Terry

The subject line of your post differs from the question you pose in the text, so I'll address both with what I know from first-hand experience:

First, let's clarify that I'm talking about 2 steps in sculpting either a background or "prop" (stump, hollow log, rock outcrop, waterfall, whatever) for an enclosure. Step 1 is creating the actual sculpture, the "body" or "blob". Step 2 is covering the "blob" in something that is both attractive and functional, in terms of environmental resistance (to flowing water, UV light, sharp-clawed little dragons, heavy crawling snakes, adherent or penetrating plant roots, etc).

GREAT STUFF VS STYRO (sculpting the blob)
- GS can be a little hard to control coming out of the can
- GS breaks down with long-term exposure to moisture (goes to goo) so your sealing needs to be perfect
- GS is a sticky nasty mess before it cures; it comes out of the can with some force, and you can end up with some on your face; you'll hope you're wearing eye protection if/when that happens!
- GS is a little expensive if you're "going big"
- nevertheless, it indeed is "great stuff" for many applications, and I always have a few cans around (you can cover the extruder tip with plastic and get more shelf-life out of it)

- both extruded and expanded polystyrene are useful for backbrounds & props
- styro can be had for free (dumpster diving); if you buy it in large sheets, it's cheaper than GS, by volume (cu in or whatever)
- styro does not break down with exposure to moisture
- styro is easy to control - it just sits there until you do something with it!
- extruded (blue or pink, more solid) is easier to carve than expanded (white, puffy)
- styro and GS actually can work really well together; I don't like to use the GS as my adhesive because with expansion it pushes the styro around; any construction adhesive for use with foam board is good for styro adhesive

GROUT VS SILICONE (covering the blob so it's both attractive and environmentally-resistant)
- silicone is a god-awful mess to work with, and pretty hard to control in fine detail
- the acid fumes the silicone throws off while curing are a real health issue; the stuff is just plain nasty to work with
- long-term, the organic material wears off the silicone, leaving you with an ugly black rubbery background
- you can really only get one "look" (color, pattern, texture) from this method; and it doesn't really look all that natural even at its best
- the cost can add up a bit if you use a lot of silicone tubes
- the technique is not that forgiving if you screw up along the way - if you need to go over some coco with more silicone, it's hard to feel confident that you have a water-tight seal between the layers
- if your organic material is not perfectly dry when you stick it to the silicone, it's not going to stick...
- despite the drawbacks I've mentioned, this is a robust technology for very humid environments
- personally, I will never create another habitat-scape using this method!
- the frog guys still like it

- grout & sealer allow incredible diversity of creative expression, in terms of colors, patterns, and textures; you need to see to believe, just how good some "fake rocks" and "fake trees" can be, made with these materials (e.g., see Dendroboard, look up a Finn named HX)
- the materials are ridiculously cheap
- the materials are easy to work with, and you can really improve your sculpting technique with experience and intuition
- the materials are pretty forgiving to work with - if you produce an area or a whole layer you don't like, just slap on another and give it another go!
- you still have to care for your body, but I think these materials are less inherently-dangerous to e.g., lungs and eyes
- choice and application of sealer are critical; acrylic-based products (e.g., Mod-podge, Ace acrylic co-polymer, etc) are fine for xeric situations and "clean" animals, but for humid or wet environments, or really messy animals (turtles, indigos, cobras, whatever) you're much better off using polyester (fiberglass) or epoxy resin
- styro sealed with epoxy has long been a favorite with aquarium enthusiasts, who have also been making their own tanks with plywood, glass, and fiberglass or epoxy for a very long time

hope this helps,
Jimi

The above post goes it to quite a bit of detail, so I will be brief.

Styrofoam is actually a registered trademark of Dow Chemical and is the brand name of their Extruded polystyrene (blue stuff). Therefore I will not mention Styrofoam in any of my post to avoid product favoritism.

The question you ask is really down to the preference of the user and the nature of the enclosure. Regardless of base product Extruded, Expanded, or Expanding Polyurethane Foam (Great Stuff), the top coat is a direct reflection of what the enclosure is ideally meant to be.

For example the Coco fiber cover silicone is often used in Heavily planted vivariums. It adds a nice texture to the background as well and covers the foam. Cement Tile grout and acyclic hardener infused DIY compositions are all meant to simulate rock with very little vegetation.

So you need to ask yourself do I want a planted background or a rock background?

Its actually perfectly acceptable to do both, building the rock background and then adding cocofiber to a silicone layer in areas to simulate dirt.

As far as the base, you can use all three with ease. In fact some of the best backgrounds I've seen used Extruded polystyrene as the layer and then used the expanding polyurethane foam to add details and transitions between sections. All are carve-able with a blade or a hot-wire set up. Expanded Polystyrene makes a mess.
-----
Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
0.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow
1.0 Ghost
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0.2 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Anerthrystic
0.0.2 Normal

1.1 Morelia Clastolepis

Jeremy wrote:
"Its actually perfectly acceptable to do both, building the rock background and then adding cocofiber to a silicone layer in areas to simulate dirt.

As far as the base, you can use all three with ease. In fact some of the best backgrounds I've seen used Extruded polystyrene as the layer and then used the expanding polyurethane foam to add details and transitions between sections. All are carve-able with a blade or a hot-wire set up. Expanded Polystyrene makes a mess."

True on all counts in my experience, especially the use of extruded base + expanding details/transitions, and expanded being a mess. But as for "plants on rock", one can also skip the silicone & organic step by sculpting and sealing drained planting holes into your "cliff", and/or sculpting soil-retaining sloped ledges for plants, and/or utilizing clasping plants such as creeping fig and ivy.

I haven't used a hot wire but they look pretty slick. I've been plenty happy with a serrated knife with a shallow blade.

Actually I don't consider coco fiber on silicone a growing media. What I was referring to was that with a planted background what is the sense in detailed rock. And using the coco fiber on a rock landscape would just mimic the appearance of dirt between rock rather than emulate it.

If you have ever seen the vivaria and terreria done by Black Jungle you will see what I mean by the coco fiber background. Its a very cheap easy way to mute the background and focu the attention on the plants.

OP is free to whatever they want. There are more ways to do this than there are products...

Let your imagination go wild.

BTW you can build a hot wire system with a transformer and some wire.
-----
Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
0.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow
1.0 Ghost
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0.2 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Anerthrystic
0.0.2 Normal

1.1 Morelia Clastolepis

Thanks everyone for the info. I like the looks of carved backgrounds that appear like rock opposed to the muted look of the coco fiber background. And I'm looking into the grout vs epoxy/drylock as well. I think there are great advantages to the drylock. Thanks for the comments and advice, it's all going to come in handy later!

Terry

I skimmed over the responses and it seems like you have received a lot of good information. Really boils down to what you're trying to achieve.

With that said, I know of two "somewhat" new alternatives to the grout and silicone/coco-fiber methods.

Some people are now using Drylok Latex Masonry waterproofer instead of grout to coat expanded or extruded polystyrene backgrounds. Easier to work with and more durable is the word from people who have tried both methods. Use liquid concrete dye to tint the Drylok.

And instead of silicone try an acrylic concrete bonding additive. This is been in use in Europe for a while and now more people are trying it. Some create a slurry of coco-fiber and bonding additive and smear it on the background. Others use a garden sprayer to apply a thick layer of bonding additive and then sprinkle the coco-fiber in place.

Don't know if these were mentioned or not but thought I'd mention them just in case.

Thanks Chris. Actually I've tried both of those too - you turned me onto drylok years ago in some of your posts about sealing wood cages. Works great! Kinda ugly...works great! Ha ha...

So, I've used drylok on GS because as I said earlier that product breaks down to goo with long-term exposure to moisture. And drylok is bullet-proof water-proof.

Aside - drylok also has a concrete- or rock-like texture, that's a plus for some applications.

I found drylok a little hard to paint over, compared to grout. (I agree on setting your base tone - just tint & go). Maybe I should be more specific and say "less versatile". With drylok you're painting right on paint, so the edges of your colors are pretty distinct (of course, sometimes that's what you want). With grout, before you seal it you can use various degrees of thinning of your paints (I use acrylic stuff from hobby shops), and the grout absorbs your watery paint to a certain extent, so you get some really cool watercolor effects. And if you want distinct edges between colors, just don't thin your paint, apply it full-strength directly to the grout.

White non-sanded grout is dirt cheap, I just tint it like the drylok when I whip up my top coat.

As for the acrylic copolymer + coco vs silicone + coco - in Europe that's called the flevopol method. Actually you can apply the acrylic/coco blend onto drylok-coated foam (or grout). That can be a wise move because the acrylic/coco blend is fairly water-retentive (the degree depends on your mix ratio) and that will melt a GS sculpture pretty quick. Additionally, drylok is easier to adhere to (for the coco mix) than raw foam (whether -styrene or -urethane). Raw foam is pretty slick, as you see when trying to get that first runny coat of grout to stick to it.

Another aside - flevopol still breaks down over a few years - I think sometimes it'll go up to 5. I have some that's about 3 years old. Some patches have fallen off. But they can be re-patched easily enough.

I've also mixed acrylic copolymer with coarse sand. Might as well use mortar. Except the acrylic dries clear instead of mortar-grey, if you want to retain the sand color without further pigment.

Hope this stokes some creative play out there. Go for it guys, this stuff is cheap. You get better fast, too. And it's so much better looking, and I think many herps do a lot better on it (normal-behaviorally speaking), than on lab-style "sterile" setups.

I agree. After visiting several dart frog forums and seeing what they've been doing for years, I'm excited and anxious to try similar techniques with snake-keeping. I'm really keen to create a visually appealing display.

Terry

This is a link to professional epoxies for zoo displays.

Polygem

The Polygem product is awesome if you are seriously into making fake rock. I saw a cage for a rosyboa done with Polygem, and it looked like one big rock structure. An artistic vision would be nice. I have none.
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Mark

Mark, thanks for the link. That's some cool stuff! I haven't found a price for it, but it sounds like the perfect product for creative cage construction.

Terry

Another link to cool stuff, if you haven't seen:
http://www.vivariumforum.com/community/index.php

The water-terrarium thing you discussed is called a paludarium in this forum.

Cheers,
Jimi

As an artist who does a fair amount of sculpting, I have a working knowledge of some great rock sculpting products out there that most people aren't aware of. Polygem products have already been mentioned, but here are some of my favorites:

Apoxie Clay and Apoxie Sculpt, both manufactured by Aves Studios. They are two-part sculpting compounds that are easy to work with, take any amount of detail that you can throw at them, and are waterproof and impervious to just about everything when cured. They are also very lightweight and work great as a "skin" over carved foam or metal sculpting mesh. A little on the pricey side, but worth every penny.

http://www.avesstudio.com/

Another very nice two-part compound that is a less expensive alternative to the above mentioned is Magic Sculpt. It has the same basic characteristics as the other two. I can't recall who makes it, but if you Google it, it is easy to find.

The terrain making supplies offered by Bragdon Enterprises are also worth checking out.

http://www.bragdonent.com/index.htm

Also, when making faux rocks, texture pads are invaluable, and easy to make. Find a couple of rocks that have some nicely textured faces, and then layer liquid latex (sold as a mold building supply) and cheesecloth on them until you've built up a layer about 1/4" thick. Peel off when dry and you have some nice flexible pads for texturing your stone. You can quickly texture large areas with them, and they add that necessary touch of realism to your creations. They can be used for the sculpting compounds as well as cementitious mixes, though the latter general require a mold release agent to keep the them from sticking to the pad.

Just a few more things to add to your arsenal. Have fun!