Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All Florida Burmese Pythons that were tagged for the invasive python study have been found dead. The USFWS has been holding off on releasing this information to the public. That is the information I have from close inside sources. I am not stating this as absolute fact, but my sources are usually very reliable.

It is my belief that the government scientists and officials may be withholding this information deliberately, until USFWS can get the 9 species of snakes declared injurious under the Lacey Act and therefore banned without the representation and input of the citizens of the USA. If this information came out now, the boas and pythons could not be declared injurious under the Lacey Act.

I hereby call upon US Federal Government Scientists Gordon Rodda, Frank Mazzotti, and Skip Snow to release this information regarding the number of deaths of all tagged snakes immediately.

I also hereby call on the Secretary of the Department of the Interior Ken Salazar and USFWS Director Sam Hamilton to release this information regarding the number of deaths of all tagged snakes immediately and halt any Lacey Act actions based upon any false or misleading evidence.

This is great to hear but were is USARK and what do they say and what are they tring to do about using this to all our advantage? It would be great to see some official papers or signed documents to state this. I think it would also to be great to see some hearings on the issues for giving and or with holding vital information that could so wrongly affect so many. Thanks for the info. MIke

Until an official statement is released this information is essentially useless. Without actual proof its nothing.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I know that a lot of ranchers out west have their own radio trackers to track the movement of wolves wearing radio collars. Has anyone down around the everglades considered doing so to track these burms on their own?

What you have to keep in mind is this. This has never been about science or facts for the people pushing this agenda. That goes for the HSUS and the scientists who wrote tailored "reports" to bring about the ideological goals of those individuals. Even if all the Burms died, reasonable people would rejoice knowing that the Burm problem, which has only been in the Everglades, has been at least tremendously set back. The masses who have been whipped into a frenzy of fear can breathe a sigh of relief. All those pushing Federal legislation will be revealed for their real motivation when they do not alter their own path at all. The "Scientists" that said Burms would go all the way to the Ohio Valley were not “wrong”. They knew what they wrote was a fabrication. They didn’t believe it. The people who signed off on those reports didn’t believe it. They wrote exactly what the people who commissioned them to write wanted them to write. The next statements coming from the “PHDs”, whose custom written science has been turned upside down, will prove that beyond any doubt.

This is not over for them. This is a war of tactics to deceive and get their animal rights agenda passed. It has nothing at all to do with legitimate science or real fear. This will only be a major monkey wrench for them. That's all. This is not the end for them, and anyone who thinks that these people have the character to admit that they are wrong, does not understand what this is all about for those who mean to bring about this new legislation.

They saw the gold ring and were just reaching for it when everything they have said about the danger of invasiveness has turned to crap. This has not changed the fact that they think they almost had that ring on their finger. They still can’t stand the idea of one species, humans, owning another species, reptiles. That is what this is all about.

The cold weather hurt them and hurt them bad. They will however remain undeterred.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

This info doesn't seem to quite match up with the earlier statement from Dr. Frank Mazotti, as posted here:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1783141,1783141

It'll be interesting to see his report when it comes out!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

From a limited personal experience I know some died and some survived in terms of the pythons. I, too, have been told by several folks that the snakes that are being studied died. My thoughts on this are that I think according to press releases that lg females were the ones that had the transponders. This was done in order to attract more Pythons [usually males] to the area the females live. I think the lg snakes were perhaps too lg. to go underground to escape the killing temps but some smaller ones were able to excape by going deeper underground. My concern is that the info appears to be deliberately withheld from the American public. If nothing else the fact that a relatively MILD cold front by U.S. standards killed many Pythons here PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THESE SNAKES COULD NOT SURVIVE EVEN NORTH OF LAKE OKEECHOBEE. This PROVES that Roddas USGS map is as worthless as we said from day 1. It would seem that these snakes have a toehold and not a stranglehold here in the Everglades in terms of survival long term. We should put pressure on the powers that be to release their findings. Meanwhile USFWS have declared Burmese and 8 other snakes ijurious without one shred of evidence that they are in fact injurious at all.How can an organism be injurious if it can not flourish in the ecosystems? The "real truth" needs to be provided and it needs to be provided now. Rodda should to go public and admit he was wrong about about his "USGS MAP" and his postulation that Pythons may be living all over the southern third of the U.S. over time. Two nights of weather about 28-32 degrees of only a few hours duration proved to be devastating to the Pythons here. EVERY YEAR IT GETS MUCH COLDER THAN THAT IN EVEN CENTRAL AND N. FLORIDA much less in the Carolina's etc. I am a college drop out but I wouldn't need to do a study to know Pythons can NOT survive in N. Florida much less S. Carolina...RELEASE THE INFO TO THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER PUBLIC AND STOP THE DECEIT AND FALSE CLAIMS...sorry for the rant.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

The information, if released, would have an effect on our current committee hearings up here in Georgia.

You said: I think the lg snakes were perhaps too lg. to go underground to escape the killing temps but some smaller ones were able to excape by going deeper underground.

Since the Everglades are basically at sea level, is there any space "underground", or is it just water? And when I ask if there's any space underground, I realize the ground is solid and not quick sand, but is there enough solid ground for their to be holes deep enough that the difference in temperature would be substantial versus the temperatures above ground?

Thanks!
jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

We have a base here of oolitic limestone covered with a thin layer of soil. In the limestone which is porous are vast aquifers of warm water. When trees fall over, holes in canal banks, etc are small areas that enable animals to get down a little underground but NOT lg enough usually for lg animals including lg Pythons. I did temp gun readings during the cold and even the foliage was warmer than the air in most cases [daytime only]. My point is the cold snap to us here was devastating but as coldfronts go it was really wimpy compared to other areas even in Florida. If it had such a huge impact on the Pythons as already proven how can these snakes much less the other 8 be considered injurious? What we've always wanted is the truth and we should demand nothing less...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

If this is true it still doesn't mean much at all. The sample size of burms with transmitters was to small to begin with, a limited sample size will introduce bias to their statistically modeled conclusions. The study was flawed from the beginning, so do not assign it any value one way or the other.

Some burms appear to have survived, and this will be used to justify what ever pre-determined conclusions they wanted. Welcome to the world of politically based science where results and conclusions are less important than funding and career progression.

I believe that the burms will continue to be a problem in South Florida. I do believe, and it is only my gut feeling, that the problem has been over estimated. I also believe that they will not present a problem any further North than where they are now. I can not state this as fact. At this point I wouldn't believe any conclusions made by either side. I believe that emotions have removed the chance for objectivity from this national discussion.

An inconvenient freeze.

I reviewed some of the material I have here and SOME males were tracked to check movements as well as the lg females. One male snake supposedly traveled several miles in a relatively short time for a snake so I was incorrect in saying ONLY lg females were tracked. Nonetheless I've heard from several "good sources" that ALL the study snakes died. If this is NOT true Mr. Mazzotti and Mr Snow should step forward and enlighten us all to the real facts. If the info would help their case it would already have been publicized on every news agency available. The reason that nothing has been said, I believe, is that they have egg on their faces. As far as Rodda's map goes it has the same value as toilet paper in terms of validity and the meager cold snap here proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt already. Again please release the info to the American public. We have been told over and over again these 9 snakes pose a significant threat to our ecosytems. If they do prove to us they could even survive anywhere but here. I'm simply a common man and NOT a scientist but it's abundantly clear they did NOT fare well here during our wimpy cold snap....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I'm not saying I doubt it, but without proof, we sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorists. (The sad thing with conspiracy theorists is that sometimes they're right!)

My question is, will the scientists at UF (Dr. Frank Mazotti) release their findings prior to the end of the USFWS comment period?

If so, and the statements made in the original post are true, this will utterly derail their attempts to place these animals on the injurious list.

If the statements made in the original post are true but they are not released prior to the end of the comment period, can we get the 60 day comment period extended due to the fact that this is the most scientifically relevant information that exists thus far?

If the statements made in the original post are not true, it will certainly be used against us in a severe way (not the statements made in the post, but the data - the fact that the burms survived).

We need some credible proof of this assertion. To say: "All Florida Burmese Pythons that were tagged for the invasive python study have been found dead" and then say: "I am not stating this as absolute fact" sounds like it comes straight from a paper written by the USGS until we have credible proof. Let's not fall into the same classless-class of the Department of the Interior organizations (USGS, USFWS, NPS/ENP). We should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

We all know the DOI scientists are dishonest, don't we? So who exactly is supposed to release an "official report" exposing them if they are covering up the evidence?

I'm definitely not saying I have a problem with the original poster putting this info up, just the manner in which it was presented.

To state something as fact, and then qualify it with an unknown is probably not the best way to share info.

I would have liked to have seen it say something like:

"I have a source who is usually fairly reliable tell me that all of the Burms that were being tracked, died in the recent cold snap in S. Florida."

To then "call upon" the head guys in the organizations involved based on hearsay is fairly premature as well.

I just keep going back to the notion that we need to live up to the expectations we set for others. Honesty, transparency, timeliness, and respect. We can't expect to demand it of them, if we can't live up to it ourselves.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

My biggest concern is at the present moment every politician, the news media, and the general public believe that giant snakes may someday live near them in the wild BECAUSE of Rodda's paper, news stories, etc. Since MOST of what was reported was speculative at best it's time for them to simply report the truth. At this point they've had MORE than enough time to give another report at least that the snakes can NOT survive further north. This doesn't have to be in the form of a "peer reviewed" paper just a simple report of the known status of the Pythons that they've been tracking. This NEEDS to be done now because of the injurious decree that USFWS have presented as factual on the basis of Rodda's maps, reports, etc...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

And I agree that they should make an announcement update. And they should put equal effort forth to publicize and promote the update as they did the initial findings.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

An LA TImes article about freezing Burmese in florida.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/15/nation/la-na-fla-pythons15-2010feb15