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"Python Wars"

EricWI Feb 09, 2010 10:40 PM

Did anyone else catch that program on NatGeo tonight?

They never even once mentioned Hurricane Andrew. They placed all of the blame on keepers and pet owners for the python's introduction even despite the complete lack of evidence for this. They showed Rodda's USGS map, saying pythons could spread from San Francisco to Washington D.C. They even said that the pythons can survive freezing temperatures. Obviously, Florida's recent freeze was "conveniently" left out. I Wonder why. They also bought up the Burm/Afrock hybridizing but again conveniently left out the fact that the offspring would likely be sterile.

There was really only a 5 second blurb about us being "upset about the legislation". That was it. There were NO other facts for our side.The show was pretty much what I expected it to be: complete Burm crap.

Replies (47)

jeffb Feb 09, 2010 11:46 PM

Any reptile owner or business having anything to do in any way with mainstream media be it "News" or even NatGeo and Animal Planet need to be aware that they are not our friends.

They are not our friends, they are not on our side, that they will use only bits and pieces of anything we give them when it is convenient to do so, supports their own agenda, or is the undeniable 800lb gorilla in the room.

If it bleeds it leads. They media is only looking for "killer python" stories because "warm fuzzy" snake stories don't sell papers, the sharks aren't biting enough tourists in Florida, and because the organizations involved in fighting the bans have been spending their money elsewhere rather than courting media favor.

If you are a reptile person and are approached by the media in any form, be vary wary. They are not looking for "fair and balanced". They are looking for sound bytes that can be used out
of context. Another nail in the coffin so to spoeak.

You should bear this in mind when you watch TV shows from these media organizations and purchase their products, that when you do
a little more of your money goes to support their agenda. Right now their agenda is not your own.

EricWI Feb 10, 2010 07:00 AM

Well said Jeff. The five second blurb about us was really nothing more than their half hearted attempt at convincing us they were "fair and balanced".

webwheeler Feb 10, 2010 09:04 AM

I think we need to come up with some of our own sound bites. Here are a few suggestions:

1. "This issue affects all pet owners. This issue is not just about reptiles. This issue is about whether or not anyone should have a pet, whether that pet be a reptile, fish, bird, cat or dog."

2. "If legislation can be passed that's not supported by the best available science, if jobs and families can be put in jeopardy, then no one’s safe."

3. "Prominent scientists call the USGS map bunk. Living just south of the U.S. border, in Mexico and in South America, are Boas and other snakes that have lived there for tens of thousands of years. No USGS map or any amount of legislation is going to change that."

Our issues are being marginalized and we need to do something about that.

jscrick Feb 10, 2010 07:49 PM

HSUS probably spends a good pit of change on the media with it's advertising, trolling for donations. Makes sense that the media might be in HSUS's corner.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

CSRAJim Feb 11, 2010 12:10 AM

Eric,

Thanks for the update and I’m not surprised at all…The SREL report is not supposed to appear publically until June 2010 (after peer review-yeah, right).

Unfortunately NatGeo as partaken from the chalice of the “green tea” and is no longer worthy of its former reputation…The fact NatGeo has not even addressed the East Anglia Emails regarding the USGS information is well…Not surprising either.

The USGS (Office of Global Change) is hosting a Climate Change Conference on March 9-11, 2010 in Denver Colorado. They’re still working on their agenda. You can read up on their “stuff” at their website…

http://geology.usgs.gov/globalchange2010/focus_areas.shtml#pal

I cannot remember if it was NatGeo or somebody else but, in one of those two earlier shows they used the USGS data as the basis (warming climate) for that map showing the “invasion” of the giant snakes as far north as Kentucky/Tennessee.

If you go and read they’re “stuff”, note their “final agenda” (that will depend on “abstracts” submitted prior to the conference) that includes…

1. Paleo-reconstructions of climate change and ecological responses
2. Global change effects on ecosystems and linkages among water, soils, biota and land use
3. Incorporating global change science into resource management decisions
4. Modeling and projection of resource response to global change
5. Results or status of projects funded through the Request for Proposals (RFP) process

The above list of five USGS conference items above, the folks at East Anglia were doing the SAME THING! The “Hockey Stick” curve was from FORTRAN data run on super computers (tax payer funded) here in the US! I’m not certain which information sharing network the East Anglia folks were corresponding on but, they were corresponding with some important folks here in the US (e.g. NOAA, Dr. Overpeck-Now at Arizona) and several other US federal agencies and universities.

For giggles and grins, go check out the National Biological Information Infrastructure (NBII) “partners” on the USGS website – the NBII is an information sharing network…I guarantee you’ll be stunned at just how many tax payer funded agencies of the federal and state governments, NGO’s and universities are participating in the NBII…In fact, you can even link to the United Nations Environmental Program (UNEP), Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) website from the USGS website (go read this “stuff”)! According to the CBD’s “Rio Earth Summit”, the US signed onto this madness (Madeleine Albright) on June 4, 1993. Here’s a link to read the CBD document…

http://www.cbd.int/doc/legal/cbd-un-en.pdf

In fact, the CBD has signed “memoranda” with several agencies that include…

World Bank – Memorandum of Cooperation with the intent “to facilitate collaboration and coordination between the World Bank and the Convention thereby enhancing the important role the Bank has in implementing the Convention, and to provide a mechanism for future exploring opportunities for future co-operation” on May 2, 1997. See Article 20 (Financial Resources) and Article 21 (Financial Mechanisms) on page 156 for relevance…

United States Department of Agriculture, Foreign Agricultural Service – Memorandum of Agreement for the development of the Biosafety Clearing House via regional workshops for $360,000 on March 9, 2001. See Article 17 (Exchange of Information) and Article 18 (Technical and Scientific Cooperation) on page 154 for relevance…

The Nature Conservancy (TNC) – Memorandum of Understanding that acknowledges the TNC’s support of implementing “various CBD programs in more than 30 countries across five continents” on October 7, 2008. The TNC is one of the listed “partners” of the USGS. See the entire CBD document for relelvance…

NatureServe – Memorandum of Cooperation to “facilitate collaboration between the Secretariat and NatureServe, a non-governmental organization, in the development of NatureServe as an international thematic focal point under the Clearing-house Mechanism (CHM) to make appropriate thematic information directly relevant to the Convention on Biological Diversity” on December 17, 2001. NatureServe is one of the listed “partners” of the USGS. See Article 17 (Exchange of Information) and Article 18 (Technical and Scientific Cooperation) on page 154 for relevance…

One of the “items” of the UNEP’s CBD is “non-native, invasive species”…I think the pythons fit into this criteria…See Article 8 (In-situ Conservation) and Article 9 (Ex-situ Conservation) for relevance…

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 11, 2010 09:04 AM

Even if it had any validity at all (which it does not), if we were to take up the banner of the Global Climate Change "Deniers" it would merely serve as the last nail in our collective coffin!

Science as a whole, and governments worldwide, accept the OVERWHELMING evidence for AGCC. Why would it help us to take them on?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

biophile Feb 11, 2010 06:13 PM

I once made the statement that "If NatGeo says its true, its true". The omission of Hurricane Andrew as a possible source of feral populations by that media group has once again proven me incorrect. It took NatGeo 40 years to let me down. At least they have reported on the position of independent scientists with regard to the ban. Perhaps they could just publish known facts instead of statements meant to incite the taxpayers and politicians.

CSRAJim Feb 11, 2010 09:21 PM

Brad,

What I posted above (and many others) is intended to provide background information for fellow herpers here on the forum to as to what I think is going on based on my attempt to become informed – my opinion. When I first read about HR.669 (and the similar bill the year before), it made me mad…Who are these people that are back with the same crud after we, the people, told them we didn’t want what they are selling. I discovered that what we think doesn’t matter to "them" because this is an agenda, driven by a decades old movement. Because they chapped my hide, I started doing research as to what was going on behind the scenes in congress and the sponsors of these bills. I have no idea how many times I asked myself the question, “what is this”? Often while looking for one thing, I’d find several other things by accident and the process would repeat itself over and over again. The bottom line is that HR.669 and S.373 are connected to biodiversity conservation, sustainable development and climate change programs. There is no question about this in my mind. The bureaucracies at the state and federal levels (and some large municipalities), are implementing the tenents of these three programs whether they are domestic or international (UN) in nature or origin.

An agenda driven movement IS going on (internationally and domestically) that involves governmental bureaucracies, elected politicians, NGO’s, private foundations, colleges and universities, the news media, etc, and HR.669 and S.373 are just a small piece of the entire picture. To think of these national bills as a single problem or issue is naïve (in my opinion). Besides, I’m NOT suggesting that we “herpers” can fix what I’m talking about by ourselves (we are too few in number to accomplish this) but, what if we could involve other folks in this fight? I’m not talking about dog, cat, fish, horse, etc owners (some of them are already doing what we are doing)…I’m talking about our neighbors, family and friends. A solution to the problem is first understanding what is REALLY going on by becoming informed ourselves and then voting. Our first remedy occurs on Election Day to begin the correction of what is going on as ALL of the regulations that exist now are a result of a public law that originated in congress. What has been done before can be undone (forcing a new regulatory climate on the bureaucracy) but, this has to be done on Election Day.

On the public relations front, how can you convince people to un-elect a professional politician to support candidates that are “pro-herper” as a single issue? In all probability, you’ll probably not have much success with this approach – it’s only about snakes and I don’t like snakes anyway. However, what if you could convince folks that what is planned for the future by the ECO agenda folks is, in my mind, a chilling prospect! Have you read the “Cap and Trade” legislation? Why has the USEPA designated CO2 as a pollutant subject to regulation? These two questions seem disconnected but they are not. They go together as eventually “they” plan to “use” us regarding CO2 to expand the trade in the new and “emerging” market of “Carbon Credits”. In the last revision of the Farm Bill, “mitigation banks” were created and universities and NGO’s are actively working on its implementation. In fact, these mitigation banks actually exist and is trading in “Carbon Credits”.

As with the numerous supporters of python issue in Florida, the “Carbon Credit” marketeers have their “propaganda” experts…All funded by either the tax payers or by public or private grants…Here are just a few...

http://onthecommons.org/media/pdf/original/Commons_Rising_06.pdf
http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/working_papers/working_papers_101-150/WP150.pdf
http://www.mfc.ms.gov/pdf/Mgt/CC/Carbon_Credits_MSUEXT.pdf
http://www.familyforestresearchcenter.org/publications/Landowners'_Willingness_Sell_Carbon_Credits.pdf

http://www.pineywoodsbank.com//RES-Press Release.pdf
http://www.resourceenvironmentalsolutions.com/
http://www.pbsj.com/Pages/default.aspx

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1698ih.txt.pdf
http://www.[url ban]/resources/publications/programs_and_policy/biodiversity_partners/buying,_selling_and_trading_biodiversity_in_washington.pdf

Hopefully you read these as they are part of the connection. The first four papers are examples of grant-funded “outreach and education” propaganda effort to “sell” the idea to the American people…Just like we were sold the idea of a rebate from the federal government by our support of the income tax. The middle three papers are about the “mitigation banks” that are a result of the last farm bill (Congress approved this). When you read the links, note the “approving” agencies of the state and federal government. The last two papers are the behind the scenes “stuff”…Imagine the creation of a new national bank that caters to the “green” movement (totally funded by the American tax payer) that will make loans for “green” oriented projects. Last but not least, imagine some government bureaucracy (or government approved NGO operating as a GSE) deciding every aspect about your land and even being involved in the transaction process at closing! In this case the federal governmental agency is the USEPA.

The point I’m trying to make with my posts is this: the domestic and international ECO agenda has three legs and they are 1) Biodiversity Conservation (non-native invasive species), 2) Sustainable Development and 3) Climate Change. They are ALL connected to one another via “networks” and “partnerships” which mutually support each other via redundancy of programs, information sharing and financial support. Ask yourself, why does the USGS have a biological component? Why is the USEPA worried about “ecoregions”? Think about those two questions for a second…Why is the USGS involved in “invasive species”? I mean, what does geology have to do with invasive species? Also, what do “ecoregions” have to do with the regulation of pollutants, hazardous waste and superfund mitigation from the USEPA? After all, why even have a Fish and Wildlife Service if these other agencies are working on the same and/or similar projects. Finally, why are any of these agencies implementing programs from an intergovernmental agency of the UN based on the signature of a Secretary of State (Madeleine Albright signed the "Rio" document for the US)? They are treating the “Rio” Convention on Biodiversity as if it was a treaty. It is not as according to the Constitution, the United States does NOT enter into treaties without the ratification vote of that treaty by a two-thirds vote of the members present in the US Senate. This has NOT happened!

In conclusion, whether you realize it or not, by opposing HR.669 and S.373, you already ARE opposing ALL of them…I hope that makes sense.

Later,
Jim.

PS: ECO = Environmental/Conservation.
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CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 11, 2010 09:40 PM

Jim-

Have you seen the movie "Conspiracy Theory"?

All of these policies/agencies are connected because we live on a planet where everything-geology, climatology, biology, energy use, consumption, production, invasive species, and myriad others are-you guessed it-CONNECTED.

Jim, I can't eat more than a certain number of meals per year of fish from our local waterway. Why? Mercury contamination caused by fossil fuels. Mercury in the glades makes both the burms and most fish totally inedible. For the same reason-fossil fuels-many of my favorite lakes in the Adirondacks are to this day too acidic for brook trout (my personal favorite fly rod quarry).

So to me I don't really care about global warming (although I fully accept the verdict of the international climatological community on that score)-reducing fossil fuel use is a GREAT idea nonetheless. It's time for us to grow up as a species and clean up after ourselves.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Feb 12, 2010 12:30 AM

Brad,
>>Have you seen the movie "Conspiracy Theory"?

Yes, how did it end?

>>All of these policies/agencies are connected because we live on a planet where everything-geology, climatology, biology, energy use, consumption, production, invasive species, and myriad others are-you guessed it-CONNECTED

Agree somewhat…You’ve made too many “connections”…Part of what you said are system mechanisms of the earth itself and the other parts are exclusively man made.

>>Jim, I can't eat more than a certain number of meals per year of fish from our local waterway. Why? Mercury contamination caused by fossil fuels. Mercury in the glades makes both the burms and most fish totally inedible. For the same reason-fossil fuels-many of my favorite lakes in the Adirondacks are to this day too acidic for brook trout (my personal favorite fly rod quarry).

>>So to me I don't really care about global warming (although I fully accept the verdict of the international climatological community on that score)-reducing fossil fuel use is a GREAT idea nonetheless. It's time for us to grow up as a species and clean up after ourselves.

As an environmentalist myself, I agree with what you said regarding mercury contamination…Not good for living things and certainly an environmental issue worthy of reduction. The problem is how far do you go? 100% elimination is out of the question (as is the case with virtually all of the metals in most of the things we use on a daily basis) so, unless you’re prepared to live your life without metals (or energy)…It’s a part of the industrial process to manufacture “things”. And with all manufacturing processes there is a product and a waste (some far more hazardous than others). As a part of that manufacturing process, energy is usually required (with the product being the energy itself and the waste generated during the process). So, again, what lifestyle changes are you prepared to make to accommodate what “they” have in store when “they” fully implement their ECO agenda? I guess horses and candle light were good enough for our ancestors…Perhaps it’s time for a comeback. I wonder if congress will propose additional legislation to accommodate the changes in their employees’ lifestyles (what took 30-60 minutes by car will take much longer on horseback).

Let’s start with electricity…It used to takes an average of 10 years (no idea how long now) to go through the site selection and permit process (federal and state bureaucracy review) for nuclear power and that does not include any lawsuits from pro-bono lawyers to support an ECO group nor does that include the actual construction time to build the plant. New hydroelectric power, well that used to take up to five years for the grant supported “experts” to complete their study to comply with the ESA (hopefully, an endangered species will not be found as that will end the project) prior to constructing any new dam. Water turbine technology is promising provided the river you plan to use doesn’t have any endangered aquatic species (again, ESA required). The same applies to the use of tidal water velocity in the seas or oceans.

Solar power does exist but not to the capacity necessary to provide power for even a city of 50,000 much less for a city of several million based on the sun itself. Any idea of how many cities in the US meet that size criteria? Clouds (no scientific solution for this one) seem to have a negative effect on solar power and can you imagine the footprint of the solar collector array (another ESA required along with numerous other permits from several other federal and state agencies to clear the land for construction). In addition, the FAA will be involved in this site selection process due to the reflected light back into the sky, which might negatively effect air travel. And what about the “battery” storage requirements used to store the generated power for those cloudy days. You'll need to obtain an EPA ID number for the hazardous waste generated when maintaining those batteries (USEPA) because if you don't, you might go to prison but will most certainly pay a very large fine for improperly disposing of the said generated hazardous waste. Speaking of the batteries, they contain metal (as well as plastics - oil product OMG) which requires some form mining/manufacturing operation as most of the metal that has been mined/manufactured, is either still sequestered as manufactured products currently in use or has already been buried in landfills as solid waste.

Fuel cell technology is in its infancy and based on current cells, can only supply enough power for small business or residential housing occupancies. Even here with fuel cells, metals are required for manufacturing them and hydrogen and oxygen must be obtained from the atmosphere to supply the fuel to generate the electricity (emits water vapor is a waste product (very good for the environment). Unfortunately, electricity is required to extract the pure oxygen and hydrogen from the atmosphere (not good for the environment). I wonder if the ECO movement will factor in that electrical consumption into the equation for those power plant air permits if fuel cells become the rage in neighborhoods.

So guess that leaves wind power, provided you can find sites where the wind will provide enough energy to turn the blades continuously…Just one problem though, this will require another ESA and you’ll have to deal with Bird issues (including migratory bird treaties) and some windy places in America happen to be along the coast…Which introduces another environmental consideration called “Wetlands” (adopted from the UN's Ramsar conference in Iran).

So I guess what I’m saying here is that though there are some promising technologies being developed (e.g. plasma energy-still in laboratories), they do not currently exist on the scale necessary to keep America in its current level of lifestyle. I suppose we could regress back to a previous century to cut back – which is great for a hunting or fishing trip – I just wonder how most American would like living primitive on a permanent basis? Hey, that might be funny to visit Capitol Hill and see the politicians “sweating” for a living…Ha! Ha! As things are right now, the most inexpensive energy source on the scale that we use it is fossil fueled steam plants to turn the turbines to generate the electricity.

I used to work in environmental consulting and performed ESA’s and the requirements now are even more stringent than back then. I suppose horses could work but, I wonder what they’ll do in the big cities with the mountains of horse manure generated on a daily basis…And since the USEPA is regulating methane gas (as part of global climate change), what a quandary that would create…And then when it rains, under the Clean Water Act, all of the surface manure contamination would wind up in the navigable waterways…Man, virtually every city in the US would not only be classified as a non-attainment area (methane gas), but they would have to hold congressional hearings to create a new “Superfund” site criteria for the manure in the water via the city’s storm sewer system. You see, it was the mass production of the internal combustion engine that solved those early environmental disasters that our forefathers created (but didn’t know about)…Oh yeah, candles and oil lamps caused massive fires in several major cities (I wonder if they used all of that released carbon into the atmosphere as East Anglia) so, while mercury is a chronic hazard, fire is an acute hazard. Oh yeah, this light source would also be regulated by a fire marshal at either the state or municipal level.

Back to fossil fueled electricity…One of the reasons that we as a nation use more of it is because of the ban of R-12 refrigerants (CFC’s)…You see, because of its high cooling efficiency, the condenser coil units did not work as hard (consume as much electricity) for our AC units, refrigerator/freezers, etc…Which meant that most every home, school, business, industry, cars, etc, did not use as much electricity to keep us cool. Now days, the “approved” refrigerants are not as efficient and therefore more fossil fuels are being consumed…So save the earth for CFC’s effects on O3 and they created new environmental problems. Oh, before you mention the energy efficiency ratings of those AC units, did you upgrade the R insulation factor for your home (the energy ratings are determined using some “approved” assumptions)? If not, that AC unit is going to run more often because of its less efficient refrigerant based on how you set your thermostat…And by keeping your house warmer inside, your refrigerator and freezer coils will run more often to keep the food inside it at the temperature setting you set it to. I guess the “grant” funded experts sort of left that out of the equation…Or perhaps they intended it to be that way…It surely seems to keep more and more of them employed to retirement (so we can pay for two of them to do the job-the one currently performing the work and the one that’s retired). Finally, because EVERY fossil fueled power plant is operating under an Air Operating Permit (from the USEPA) as energy is used, more fossil fuel is required – up to a point. That point is determined by the USEPA (it’s basically a %) and if the plant exceeds it’s permitted allowance, well the USEPA fines them. Only it’s not the power plant that actually pays the fine – We do. You see under the terms negotiated with your state’s public service commission (PSC), the agency that regulates the power plan within the state and permits these “fees” to be passed on the consumers. One final note, the PSC and the USEPA must approve the upgrades to the said power plant…Which may take years.

Perhaps “naïve” was more accurate than I thought…

Later,
Jim.

PS: ESA = Environmental Site Assessment performed for due diligence purposes to defend yourself in court as by disturbing the land, you are not in violation of some state or federal regulation later on (ownership is nine tenths of the law and if you discover something during construction - well, YOU now own the problem and any subsequent dollars that goes with it). For instance, I'll be willing to bet that your state either requires (or soon will) a land disturbance permit (in my state that trigger is one acre). Only by public law, this is NOT something you can do yourself (the law says you must have training).

Are you beginning to see the current state pervasiveness of the government, from federal, state and local levels in our lives right now? The items I mentioned above don't even come close to what it actually is in reality. And keep this in mind...Generally speaking, it takes two employees to do government work, one to do the job and one retired employee who used to do the job. And the current employee has a workplace (building) with utilities, etc...If you'll go read just one federal appropriations bill, they NEVER ask for less money as they continue to find and/or create more problems, which requires more employees...Will the circle be unbroken?

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 12, 2010 08:35 AM

Well Jim, you are really good at pointing out problems. Maybe you should set your mind to solutions?

Cap and trade is aimed at putting the most powerful solution-MONEY- to work for clean energy. Once in place, and once the true cvost (in health and environmental degradation) of fossil fuels is reflect in their price, then the switch to cleaner energy sources will be automatic and swift.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

BRhaco Feb 12, 2010 10:03 AM

You can always find reasons to not do something new. But I've been on this planet now a half-century, and I have seen with my own eyes the great good that environmental regulations have done in this country. These things are not always apparent over the short term. For example:

The White River, near where I grew up in Indiana, ia now a great place for kids to go fishing and wading, thanks to the Clean Water Act. When i was a child-no fish at all, and we were not allowed to go near the White, it was THAT toxic! This success was repeated countless times throughout North America. Remember the "river that caught fire, the Cuyahoga in Cleveland? Well, that river is so clean now that it sports runs of salmon and steelhead! That is something to be proud of.

Thanks to the Clean Air Act, lead levels and sulfur dioxide have been reduced to trace amounts-when I was young these substances were causing a variety of health problems, especially in Urban areas. Also, Acid rain has been substantially reduced, to the point that life is returning to many high-altitude lakes.

Endangered species like the eastern peregrine falcon, whooping crane, California condor (there were only a couple dozen individuals of these three left)and even bald eagle were literally on the brink of extinction-all exist now in multiple, safe populations, thanks to the ESA.

Now we're supposed to believe that we should go on like we always have because change would be "too hard"??? Well, you can stuff it.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Feb 12, 2010 05:51 PM

Brad,

>>Well Jim, you are really good at pointing out problems. Maybe you should set your mind to solutions?

Solutions yes, I’m all for them but, what “they” plan on doing is not THE solution. This is no longer about the environment or animal conservation…Their original tenents have long since been absorbed into the agenda collective. It’s now about the money and the power of control. From reading your posts, it is clear that you obviously read the newspapers and watch the television news…And nothing else. I’ve worked in the environmental field since 1982 and while I do not consider myself an expert, I believe I have an informed opinion. Also, if you read my posts carefully, you’d have seen that the solution is: until “they” have a demonstrable, usable (on a national scale), inexpensive means of providing energy for the country, we should do NONE of what they are recommending. I know that this goes against the grain with you but, which century do you want to live and work in? Everything that is recommended in “their” plan is a regression in our economy, way of life and our own freedom. OK, I know where you stand and I’m cool with that…No worries.

>>Cap and trade is aimed at putting the most powerful solution-MONEY-to work for clean energy. Once in place, and once the true cost (in health and environmental degradation) of fossil fuels is reflect in their price, then the switch to cleaner energy sources will be automatic and swift.

How much are you willing to pay for the energy for your home? Obviously what you are currently paying is not enough and you would rather pay more for your energy than you are already paying to switch energy sources (along with EVERYBODY else). Man, you must be very well off my friend. Also, it is clear to me that you do very little research about this stuff and you have obviously have not read the “cap and trade” legislation. You also did not read any of the other information either as if you did, you’d have seen that ALL of this is designed to create a new market…A market in trading carbon credits. A market that will make millionaires out the new wealthy class of ECO-ites and make billions for mutual and hedge fund marketeers (these are some of the supporters of cap and trade)…All at our expense. None of what “they” are selling has much to do at all with cleaning up or protecting the environment. Finally what ever it is that you do read or listen to, you keep on believing it and you’ll remain in bliss…For the moment, we live in a free country…No worries.

>>You can always find reasons to not do something new. But I've been on this planet now a half-century, and I have seen with my own eyes the great good that environmental regulations have done in this country. These things are not always apparent over the short term. For example:

I did not suggest not trying something new Brad, rather I suggested waiting until the “new” is proven that it can work BEFORE we implement it on a national scale. All of the ideas (solar, wind, plasma, etc) have demonstrated that they are only ready for very limited applications or still in the laboratory. Read what I said…No worries.

>>The White River, near where I grew up in Indiana, is now a great place for kids to go fishing and wading, thanks to the Clean Water Act. When I was a child-no fish at all, and we were not allowed to go near the White, it was THAT toxic! This success was repeated countless times throughout North America. Remember the "river that caught fire, the Cuyahoga in Cleveland? Well, that river is so clean now that it sports runs of salmon and steelhead! That is something to be proud of.

>>Thanks to the Clean Air Act, lead levels and sulfur dioxide have been reduced to trace amounts-when I was young these substances were causing a variety of health problems, especially in Urban areas. Also, Acid rain has been substantially reduced, to the point that life is returning to many high-altitude lakes.

I agree but that was then and industries were doing what they were permitted (or lobbied congress to pass public laws that were promulgated into regulation) to do and it was an environmental disaster…Which was corrected by scientific research that resulted in a change in the way things were done…For the better of us all and the places where we live, work and play. Also while this was happening, we the people paid a price with chronic diseases that resulted in numerous lawsuits (justifiable) that forced ALL of us to pay for their errors in judgment – Industries do not pay, we do as consumers with the embedded “costs” with higher prices. I’ve been on some of these site clean-ups myself…But as I stated earlier, that was then.

>>Endangered species like the eastern peregrine falcon, whooping crane, California condor (there were only a couple dozen individuals of these three left) and even bald eagle were literally on the brink of extinction-all exist now in multiple, safe populations, thanks to the ESA.

Yes, these are a few (along with the American Alligator) success stories of the ESA but these are far and few between…In fact, according to Table 4a of the “Federal and State Endangered and Threatened Species Expenditures” report by the USFWS, FY-2007, they spent a total of $1,663,370,090 (both federal and states) tax dollars on “Species and land expenditures, including other ESA expenses and foreign species” – note that not ALL of the US tax dollars were spent in the US (foreign species). Of this amount, $1,537,283,091 was spent on the animals (species) and $126,085,909 on land expenditures. Now compare the 2007 expenditure with total expenditure from 1989 which was $43,724,800. In just 18 years, the expenditures from this SINGLE program went from $43 million to $1.66 BILLION!

So what are the results of the ESA program in saving “listed” species? Well, in 1989, there were 554 “listed” species and by 2001, there were 1,114 “listed” species (an increase of 560 species in 12 years). Between 2001 and 2007 (six years), there was a decrease from 1,114 to 986 (decrease of 128). Well, on the face of things, it would appear as though the “trend” is towards success but, the devil is in the details as most of the animals “delisted” were for “other” reasons that included non-intentional but faulty data (there were actually more animals than originally “estimated” and therefore removed from the “list”). Now depending on the source (there are several), the reality is that between 1-3% have actually been “delisted” (removed) when once “listed” as a RESULT of the ESA.

Now consider the following expenditure data (all from the Federal and State Endangered and Threatened Species Expenditures” reports…

2007=$1.66 billion
2006=$1.70 billion
2005=$1.46 billion
2004=No Data (cannot find)
2003=$1.20 billion
2002=$1.19 billion
2001=$2.44 billion
2000=$0.61 billion
1999=$0.51 billion
1998=$0.45 billion
1997=$0.30 billion
1996=$0.29 billion
1995=$0.29 billion
1994=$0.24 billion
1993=$0.22 billion
1992=$0.29 billion
1991=$0.17 billion
1990=$0.10 billion
1989=$0.04 billion

The 18 year expenditure total of the ESA is $13.16 BILLION dollars. And for this money, the ESA has “delisted” between 1-3% of “listed” animal species in BOTH the US and internationally. What an absolutely stunning level of achievement for a government program! Brad, this is just ONE example of style (propaganda) over actual substance (results) by our government! There are many, many others Brad…As another example, why don’t you research the Brown Tree Snake Eradication and Control Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-384) and The National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year (FY) 2004 (Public Law 108-136) amended Section 101(g) of the Sikes Act (16 U.S.C. 670a(g))…How long have ALL of the government’s scientists and experts been working on that problem on the island of Guam?

If you read Public Law 108-384, note the following data…

How much money is being delegated to the actual eradication of the Brown Tree Snake versus the total amount appropriated in the law (hint: it ain’t much)?

How much money is going to the “infrastructure” (local economy) and which government agencies get the rest of the money?

If you read Public Law 108-136, note that in addition to PL 108-384, the Department of Defense was working on the eradication and control problem on the island of Guam…How much did they spend on this problem?

Here are some links to help…

http://ftp.resource.org/gpo.gov/laws/108/publ384.108.pdf
http://www.afpmb.org/docs/bts/TAB%20B%20BTS%20REPORT%20TO%20CONGRESS%20Aug%20FINAL.pdf
http://www.fort.usgs.gov/resources/education/bts/resources/pdf/Colvin2005BrownTreesnakeReviewPanelReport.pdf

The point here is that at some point in time, a shift occurred where the animal became the source of tax payer money for programs rather than successfully bringing an animal (or plant) species back from the brink…After all, if the animals are all off of the “list”, it’s kind of hard to justify more money before a congressional committee. They are using the animals as a propaganda banner to preserve (eagle or condor) or eradicate (brown tree snake or python) an animal species but a 1-3% success rate indicates an abysmal result…Both for the “listed” animal species and the American tax payer.

>>Now we're supposed to believe that we should go on like we always have because change would be "too hard"??? Well, you can stuff it.

Ahhh yes, the politics of change…Amazing results so far I must say but, no worries as I’ll just “stuff it”…

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 12, 2010 08:42 PM

Jim, the fossil fuel folks and the guys at Fox news love people like you-you're really drinking their kool-aid by the gallon. Let's look at it point by point:

Startegy one: Deny global climate change-never mind that virtually ALL the researchers and authorities in the actual field of climatology will tell you the science is rock-solid. Deny it anyway. The sheeple WANT to believe, after all...

CHECK

Two: Claim that solar, wind, geothermal, etc are "impractical", "unproven", "too expensive", "not competitive" (and carefully ignore the huge wind farms springing up across the country, thin-film nano-solar that will be available later in 2010 and reduce solar electric costs by such a large percentage that it will make it competitive with current -and I might add heavily subsidized-fossil fuels, and the fact that the solar and wind potential of west Texas alone could power the entire country, were the infrastructure upgraded to permit distribution, etc, etc, etc....)

CHECK

Three: Call yourself an "Environmentalist", and claim that you are all for changes at some carefully undefined "future date" when such things will be "practical". Repeat as necessary.

CHECK

Four: When backed into a corner, grudgingly acknowledge past environmental successes, but paint them as "isolated instances", and not worth their "massive cost". After all, what good has a peregrine falcon ever done YOU?

CHECK and DOUBLE-CHECK

Honestly I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here, my friend. But I'll bet Palin's 2012 campaign could definitely use you. You're her kind of people!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Feb 13, 2010 12:06 AM

Brad,

>>Jim, the fossil fuel folks and the guys at Fox news love people like you-you're really drinking their kool-aid by the gallon. Let's look at it point by point:

Kind of like the folks at ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC, and the east and left coast times love people like you…

>>Startegy one: Deny global climate change-never mind that virtually ALL the researchers and authorities in the actual field of climatology will tell you the science is rock-solid. Deny it anyway. The sheeple WANT to believe, after all...

With folks like some of these “scientists” perpetrating this “international” fraud as “science”…Yeah, that’s rock solid to me…You choose to believe what you wish…No worries

>>Two: Claim that solar, wind, geothermal, etc are "impractical", "unproven", "too expensive", "not competitive" (and carefully ignore the huge wind farms springing up across the country, thin-film nano-solar that will be available later in 2010 and reduce solar electric costs by such a large percentage that it will make it competitive with current -and I might add heavily subsidized-fossil fuels, and the fact that the solar and wind potential of west Texas alone could power the entire country, were the infrastructure upgraded to permit distribution, etc, etc, etc....)

You really didn’t read what I said…Until they can produce it on the scale necessary to provide energy for the nation…It IS unproven, impractical and too expensive and without the benefit of forced implementation by the government with legislation (law), NOT COMPETITIVE.

>>Three: Call yourself an "Environmentalist", and claim that you are all for changes at some carefully undefined "future date" when such things will be "practical". Repeat as necessary.

By degree, I am an environmentalist and from years of experience, I know the bureaucratic “red tape” first hand and just how expensive it all of this stuff is…When I graduated from college, I thought I’d be making a difference for the environment but I came to realize over time, that this was not the case. You only know what the alphabet news tells you. Again, no worries…

>>Four: When backed into a corner, grudgingly acknowledge past environmental successes, but paint them as "isolated instances", and not worth their "massive cost". After all, what good has a peregrine falcon ever done YOU?

Backed into a corner? Please that is not something you are capable of doing…Try again. Yes, BILLIONS of dollars over almost two decades for 1-3% success…Yes Brad, I’m afraid you’ll buy anything because in your mind, that’s close enough for government work…

>>Honestly I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here, my friend. But I'll bet Palin's 2012 campaign could definitely use you. You're her kind of people!

OK, we’ll agree to disagree here except for preserving our herping…I think we’re mutual in that regard. No, Palin and I are not our kind of people as it appears as though she’s “in it for the money” and didn’t even finish her term as Governor…Kind of like your President.

Have a good one,
Jim.

PS: Read below…Here are just a few of the emails Brad…I guess you’ve not actually read them…

Let’s see, reading things like best estimates, disclaimers, problems for policymakers (bureaucrats and politicians) is problematic but reading FOR WHOME THE WHOLE IPCC EXERCISE IS UNDERTAKEN? Reading something like this from scientists is most troubling…I thought this was about science (as environmentalism was back when I first started)…Yeah, you stick to your evening news casts…By the way in these emails, the spelling is theirs…

From: gjjenkins@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
To: m.hulme@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: RE: WGI emissions/scenarios conference
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:15 +0000 (GMT)

Mike

I think the problem is the same one as in 1988 and 1994. In order to answer the question: "what is IPCC's best estimate of climate change over the next hundred years, and the uncertainties?" we need a single best estimate of emissions (plus a range of uncertainty). In the same way as modellres say "here is our best estimate of climate sensitivity plus a range" then the SRES group should do the same thing. Of course they can make all the usual disclaimers and talk about surprises just as the climate modellers do. But NOT to come up with an estimate for a Business as Usual emissions scenario (plus a range, of 6GtC to 30GtC at 2100) seems to be ducking responsibilities. "Getting away from single number answers" is very laudable scientifically, but it presents policymakers (for whome the whole IPCC exercise is undertaken) with a problem. As long as there is a central estimate and a range, the surely both communities could be happy, as they ultimately were with BaU in 1990 and IS92a in 1995?

Geoff

OK, perhaps that email above didn’t raze any concerns with you but, interest by the WHITE HOUSE for “needed visibility”? Really? The time frame here is 1998 and who was in the WHITE HOUSE at this time? If they went skiing, who paid for it? I wonder WHY none of this is discussed in the alphabet news…Perhaps it is similar to what is going on with the pythons in the ENP or the experiment at SREL (that we will not see until the “peer review” is complete in June 2010)…By the way, after Dr. Overpeck shared in the IPCC’s Nobel Prize he moved on and is now at the University of Arizona…

From: "Jonathan T. Overpeck"
To: Phil Jones
Subject: Re: climate of the last millennia...
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:17:24 -0700
Cc: k.briffa@xxxxxxxxx.xxx, ray bradley , mann@xxxxxxxxx.xxx

Hi Phil - thanks for your detailed reply to my email. I look forward to working with you and the rest of the gang to really improve the state of paleo contributions to the detection/attribution issue. The earlier we get a small group together, the better, so I suggest we try to take you up on
the AMS add-on idea. It would be ideal to have a 1 to 1.5day mtg in Boulder since we have many of the needed perspectives (ice core, coral, seds, data, etc) here. What would be the best dates for you (and Keith - I'm hoping he'll be up for this too). We can find the extra $$ to get folks to Boulder and have a quality time (do you ski?).

Once we set the dates with you (PLEASE SEND FAVORED DATES), Mike and Ray, we can set the agenda. The main thing is that it would set the stage for the extra degree of data sharing we'll need before the planned Santorini mtg (still no dates - please bug Jean-Claude!!). Sound ok?

As for the data from your paper, I'd like to get them up with the data from the other studies on the WDC www site asap. (JUST LET ME KNOW HOW!) The White House is interested in knowing the state-of-the-art, and if we can get everything together at one www site (including data and figs), I think I can get some needed visibility for the paleo perspective. You probably
know this, but Henry Pollack's Borehole view of things (similar conclusions to the other recent papers) is about to appear in Science. Although each proxy and method does have it's limitations and biases, the multiproxy view is compelling with regard to the patterns of temp change over the past
several centuries. The IPCC next time around should be much stronger than last on the paleo side of things (although still not as good as it can get!).

Of course, I'll continue to work with Mike and Ray to get the rest of the individual series out into the public domain. Santorini should be the goal - not alowwed on the island without coughing up data first!

Aloha and thanks again! Peck

Dr. Jonathan T. Overpeck
Head, NOAA Paleoclimatology Program
National Geophysical Data Center
325 Broadway E/GC
Boulder, CO 80303

tel: xxx-xxx-xxxx
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx
jto@xxxxxxxxx.xxx

Brad, you can read this yourself…Now it is October 2009 and it looks like OVERWHELMING CONSENSUS to me with the “scientists” in-the-loop of the data and the policy statements…But as you read these, who was interested in the data in the WHITE HOUSE back in 1998…”motivations are increased and continued grant funding, university advancement, job advancement, profits and payoffs from carbon control advocates such as Gore, being in the limelight, and other motivating factors I am too inexperienced to identify.” Who would think that a SINGLE TREE could "skew" the data for the 20th century "reconstruction'?

Brad, there are over 1,000 of these…I recommend that you find them and READ them…They have a very interesting story to tell…One that the alphabet news seems to gloss over…I’m feeling really backed into a corner now…Later.

Eugene I. Gordon wrote:

David:

I concede all of your points but add one other thought. It is my grandchildren I worry about and I suspect their grand children will find it exceedingly warm because sunspots will return and carbon abatement is only a game; It wont happen significantly in their lifetime AND IT WONT BE ENOUGH IN ANY CASE. HENCE _WE WILL NEED A GEOENGINEERING SOLUTION_ COME WHAT MAY!

-gene

/Eugene I. Gordon/
/(908) 233 4677/
/euggordon@xxxxxxxxx.xxx/
/[3]www.germgardlighting.com/
*From:* geoengineering@xxxxxxxxx.xxx

[mailto:geoengineering@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
] *On Behalf Of *David
Schnare
*Sent:* Sunday, October 04, 2009 10:49 AM
*Cc:* Alan White; geoengineering@xxxxxxxxx.xxx

*Subject:* [geo] Re: CCNet: A Scientific Scandal Unfolds

Gene:

I've been following this issue closely and this is what I take away from it:

1) Tree ring-based temperature reconstructions are fraught with so much uncertainty, they have no value whatever. It is impossible to tease out the relative contributions of rainfall, nutrients, temperature and access to sunlight. Indeed a single tree can, and apparently has, skewed the entire 20th century temperature reconstruction.

2) The IPCC peer review process is fundamentally flawed if a lead author is able to both disregard and ignore criticisms of his own work, where that work is the critical core of the
chapter. It not only destroys the credibility of the core assumptions and data, it destroys the credibility of the larger work - in this case, the IPCC summary report and the underlying
technical reports. It also destroys the utility and credibility of the modeling efforts that use assumptions on the relationship of CO2 to temperature that are based on Britta's work, which is,
of course, the majority of such analyses.

As Corcoran points out, "the IPCC has depended on 1) computer models, 2) data collection, 3) long-range temperature forecasting and 4) communication. None of these efforts are sitting on firm ground."

Nonetheless, and even if the UNEP thinks it appropriate to rely on Wikipedia as their scientific source of choice, greenhouse gases may (at an ever diminishing probability) cause a significant increase in global temperature. Thus, research, including field trials, on the leading geoengineering techniques are appropriate as a backstop in case our children find out that the current alarmism is justified.

David Schnare

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 8:35 AM,
Eugene I. Gordon

wrote:

Alan:

Thanks for the extensive and detailed e-mail. This is terrible but not surprising. Obviously I do not know what gives with these guys. However, I have my own suspicions and hypothesis. I
dont think they are scientifically inadequate or stupid. I think they are dishonest and members of a club that has much to gain by practicing and perpetuating global warming scare tactics. That is not to say that global warming is not occurring to some extent since it would be even without CO2 emissions. The CO2 emissions only accelerate the warming and there are other factors controlling climate. As a result, the entire process may be going slower than the powers that be would like. Hence, (I postulate) the global warming contingent has substantial motivation to be dishonest or seriously biased, and to be loyal to their equally dishonest club members. Among the motivations are increased and continued grant funding, university advancement, job advancement, profits and payoffs from carbon control advocates such as Gore, being in the limelight, and other motivating factors I am too inexperienced to identify.

Alan, this is nothing new. You and I experienced similar behavior from some of our colleagues down the hall, the Bell Labs research people, in the good old days. Humans are hardly perfect creations. I am never surprised at what they can do. _ I am perpetually grateful for those who are honest and fair and thankfully there is a goodly share of those._

-gene

*From:* Alan White [mailto:adwhite99@xxxxxxxxx.xxx

>]
*Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:28 PM
*To:* Gene Gordon
*Subject:* Fw: CCNet: A Scientific Scandal Unfolds

more of the same. what gives with these guys?

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 13, 2010 09:46 AM

I've read these previously, Jim-and it seems to me most of the negativity comes from inferences and "conspiracy theory" made by the denier community. It does not surprise me one bit to find isolated cases of scientists attempting to put the best face and maybe even selectivfly choose data to support a conclusion in a way the public can better understand. Scientists are humans too, and some may suffer from an excess of zeal.

This in no way taints the overall results from literally thousands of different investigations from scientists all over the world!! And it's truly baffling that we are asked to believe this utter garbage.

At least they are not outright fabricating results, like the tame "scientists" employed by the fossil fuel and chemical industries have been doing for decades!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

brhaco Feb 13, 2010 10:12 AM

You are however right in our agreement on the subject of herp regs. The anti-pet humane groups are emphatically NOT environmentalists, though they try to paint themselves as such to the public. Their agenda would in fact prove incredibly dmaging to the environment, were it ever fully enacted.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

emysbreeder Feb 13, 2010 11:08 AM

So Rhodda's paper was bad but all the other environmentist are right? So you were for the Python ban before you were against it? You are the most convaluted person on this forum. Its THE HERP LAW Forum, no one wants to here your leftist views. Its about the people in power trying to take away our way of living. Their doing it in a blantantly dishonest nod and a wink, juvenile lie that anyone over 12 that loves reptiles can see through. Their after your stuff too! MAN UP and fight against the intellectual terrorist,and stop complaning and wineing about the people that make fuel for your car and house and the big steel and concreat building you show up at and type! You a phony not an environmentist. I'm sure you'll have a sorryass responce but I'm not going to go back and forth,unless you have any GOOD ideas on how to fight the Python BAN that your buddies want. Vic Morgan SFRB (self funded reptile breeder)

brhaco Feb 13, 2010 11:22 AM

Well, all I will say is that Rodda's paper WAS bad-but he is a biologist, not an environmentalist. You may not be aware, but another biologist has published a scientific paper that is MORE widely accepted in the community that refutes Rodda's conclusions (Pyron et al)-but you won't hear the media trumpeting THAT.

Anyone who knows me would laugh at you calling me a "leftist", buddy (I'm a lifelong hunter and gun owner, for example-and I was a Ron Paul supporter, for another). So until you can formulate a more balanced and intelligent opinion about me, please keep your opinion to yourself.

And you might want to try spell check.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

brhaco Feb 13, 2010 11:37 AM

Learn to read more carefully-I said that I "predicted we would lose", not that I thought we SHOULD lose. Two very different things. I hope I'm wrong.

And the "big glass and concrete building" I go to every day is actually three big concrete buildings, housing one of the largest reptile breeding facilities in the country-the Center for Reptile and Amphibian Propagation, for which I serve as Curator.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Feb 15, 2010 04:04 PM

Brad,

Yep, that's a fact and I'm in 100% agreement with you man! If you've been watching the Olympics on NBC, have you noticed the deluge of HSUS commercials soliciting funds?

I wonder how much of that money actually goes to taking care of the animals and how much goes to other "programs"...By the way, the HSUS is beginning to get onvolved in other things besides animals - Not including the propaganda. You should do some research for yourself...If you do, you'll ask yourself "what the [blank] is this"?

I've asked that question so many times I've lost track of it as "they" never cease to amaze me regarding what "they" are actually doing...

I wish you the best in your endeavors here...

Later,
Jim.

Later,
Jim
-----
CSRAJim

jscrick Feb 13, 2010 10:24 AM

Gentlemen, I appreciate the back and forth and I'm sure there is merit to both sides of the issue. Simply the ability to debate different points of view without extreme hostility and vitriol is refreshing.
My take is, you're both right. I see it most recently as an unholy alliance. An unwritten truce, where the industrialists and the institutional naturalists are carving up the planet between themselves and leaving the little guy out. The institutional naturalists are corporations just like the capitalist industrialists are. Corporate speaks to corporate. Corporate understands corporate speak. They understand one another. The individual gets left out. Just my take on the direction things are going.
Thanks,
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

brhaco Feb 13, 2010 10:29 AM

But I hope not. I'd like to keep finding a reason to get up in the morning
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Jaykis Feb 13, 2010 11:44 AM

It's realy not a left wing (nor right) conspiracy. It's a stupidity conspiracy.

jscrick Feb 13, 2010 01:59 PM

Perhaps I misspoke. To clarify my point, I do not believe there is an active conspiracy, simply that the non-profit environmentalist/conservationist/nature loving groups learned a lesson or two back in the 70's and 80's from the for profit industrial corporations. They have become corporations themselves. Albeit non-profit, still corporations, with -- agendas, boards of directors, budgets, executive officers, etc. They have adopted the corporate mantle in order to do battle with their corporate foes.
Between the two the individual, the layman, the hobbyist gets lost.
That was the point I was trying to make.
And yes, it is all about dumbing down America. Government does it, For Profit Corporate America does it, Not For Profit America does it, Institutional America does it. That's what is such a shame about the whole thing. We here in America have the freedom, resources, and where-with-all to be as intelligent and informed as anyone on the planet, and yet we choose to be ignorant.
By spoon feeding the public with what to think and how to think those in control have reduced our power of reason to that of the equivalent of possessing Diabetic Gray Matter. The publics' intellect and reason destroyed by the drug of Intellectual Sloth.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

CSRAJim Feb 15, 2010 03:56 PM

Brad,

>>I've read these previously, Jim-and it seems to me most of the negativity comes from inferences and "conspiracy theory" made by the denier community. It does not surprise me one bit to find isolated cases of scientists attempting to put the best face and maybe even selectively choose data to support a conclusion in a way the public can better understand. Scientists are humans too, and some may suffer from an excess of zeal.

Read the emails previously? I’m afraid I do not believe that. From our conversation for these past few days, it is readily apparent that you speak in the speech of platitudes (e.g. denier community, sheeple, isolated, excess of zeal, etc). These indicate that you are willing to accept BIASED science to support a preconceived conclusion and this is NOT SCIENCE at all – and neither is theirs.

I do agree with you on one thing, “scientists are human too…” and as a consequence are subject to the very same character flaws (e.g. greed, power, etc) as the industrialist scientists were for many decades…

Between 10,000-15,000 (Younger Dryas) years ago, the Greenland data indicates temperature fluctuations of approximately -60 deg. F to -25 deg F…A few thousand years later there was the 8,200 Year Event which on average, indicates temperatures there (Greenland) were around -25 deg F (with a minor plus/minus)…During both of these periods, there was ice on Greenland (and again during the Little Ice Age)…This information is significant to me for these reasons…

1. The earth was so toxic that no life existed for billions of years and once life began, it evolved over time and then humans began to colonize the earth to the point where civilizations of people actually began to modify the earth but, the earth’s systems still were evolving (Younger Dryas, the 8,200 Year Event, and the Little Ice Age)…

2. In all three instances of gloabl cooling (and corresponding warming afterwards), there were not enough people (nor industry producing GHG and/or CO2) on this plant to have affected the earth’s climate either way (warming or cooling effect) therefore,

3. Both the cooling and warming was part of the "normal" system processes of the earth itself…Without humans.

The earth has existed for billions of years before us and unless it is struck by a celestial body, will exist for billions of years after we are gone. Only the arrogance of man thinks that he can affect the earth (or predict/model the present and/or past and control its climate)…After all, when the Little Ice Age occurred, there was a severe impact on this planet (and the human genome project indicates this) but again, there were not enough people (nor industry produced GHG and/or CO2) to produce that cooling effect…But it happened anyway! Afterwards, with fewer people (and plants & animals), the earth warmed itself again…On its own!

I mean, in the overall time line of earth our existence amounts to only a few seconds – and there were numerous instances of dramatic changes in the earth’s temperatures and even its atmosphere without humans. Besides, in the overall scheme of life on earth, who says that dominant life in the future has to be human anyway? Only we humans could come up with such an absurdity. If the earth suddenly warmed/cooled itself by just 5 deg F (much greater temperature variations have occurred in the earth's past-without the impact of humans), what could we do about it? The answer is absolutely nothing. If that was to occur, we would be confronted with natural selection and the law of nature up-close and very personal (we are animals after all)…

When and if that occurs, NO GOVERNMENT ON THIS PLANET CAN PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING NOR WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AFTER IT HAPPENED…The scale of genocide, in order to survive, would be incalculable and would be the closest thing to Armageddon that we humans could think of (short of nuclear winter) on earth…

>>This in no way taints the overall results from literally thousands of different investigations from scientists all over the world!! And it's truly baffling that we are asked to believe this utter garbage.

Back to reality, the two sentences above disagree with one another…

“This in no way taints the overall results from literally thousands of different investigations from scientists all over the world!” Really? Brad, I feel sorry for you and others like you because you have no idea about what is really going on behind the scenes…Very unfortunate indeed but in the end, you will be one of the last to know if I’m right (subject to debate which is what we were doing)…No worries…

>>At least they are not outright fabricating results, like the tame "scientists" employed by the fossil fuel and chemical industries have been doing for decades!

Really? Not only did they fabricate results Brad but, they actually DISREGRDED results that did NOT fit into their scientific and legislative agenda (which they were working simultaneously with the science)…If you do EITHER of these (fabricate or disregard) then you are NOT performing science.

If scientists funded by industries can bias or disreagrd actual results, so can the folks you believe in Brad…After all, it’s hard to bite the hand that feeds you (you might be unemployed)…The difference here is why…

One funder of science is the for profit corporations (and we know where that led on occasion) but, the folks that you willingly support are funded by both the domestic and international governmental agencies, “affiliated” government sanctioned enterprises (GSE’s), NGO’s, private foundations, etc. The difference between these two funding sources is the ramifications of their power in our society…

We can and have used the government to investigate private profiteering and then use the legal system to force correction and/or compliance…On the other hand, where do we go when it’s the government (and its own sanctioned and "affiliated" profiteers) that are doing this Brad? Private industries CANNOT force us to do anything but the government CAN force us to do everything by the force of law.

There are many economic/government systems throughout recorded history that operate in such a manner as this and they include socialist/communist “democracies”, monarchies and dictatorships…It’s nice to know that you’re so willing to accept such a politic of change and I’ve enjoyed our discussion “spirited” discussion…No worries

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 15, 2010 05:03 PM

Jim,

Again this debate it very off topic for this forum (particularly in the level of detail we are getting in to ).

The truth is, neither you nor I know for CERTAIN which side is right. I'm betting on the climatologists themselves, you're betting on the skeptics. It might be tempting to think it doesn't matter, and just agree to disagree. But then there is the question of consequences.

If the skeptics are right, and yet we go ahead and drastically reduce carbon emissions worldwide, then in 50 years we'll have had little effect on the climate itself, but our children will be living in a world with far less pollution and far more efficient industries. For example, they'll be able to go fishing just about anywhere and actually consume the fish they catch LOL. Yes, there will be a transition period during which the change to clean energy sources (and I include nuclear here) will cause some degree of economic dislocation, but the future we emerge into will not only be a brighter one, but one that would eventually have been forced upon us (by scarcity of fossil fuels) in any case!

If the climatologists are right, yet the skeptics prevail (and little or nothing is done to reduce carbon emissions worldwide) Then we shall face a future of almost unimaginable horror and privation, in which literal billions could and would perish, and some of humanities largest cities would be inundated (since most of our largest cities are coastal). Although it might not be a threat to our survival as a species, it would most certainly be an existential threat to our CULTURE.

I readily admit I might be incorrect in defending AGCC. Are you SO SURE that you're right that you're willing to accept the consequences if you are wrong?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Feb 15, 2010 07:48 PM

Brad,

"Skeptics"...More platitudes...

By the way, more and more of the "skeptics" are climatologists and many many more "scientists"...And the list continues to grow as more and more of their "science" is "revealed"...The list even includes the IPCC! I wonder if they'll give that Nobel Prize back?

This isn't a question of right or wrong Brad...It's about the implentation of a "socialist society" on an unprecendented scope and scale and even though what we have been discussing for these past few days is not directly related to herping per se, this is part of H.R.669, S.373, the Lacey Act, the Endangered Species Act, etc, etc, etc. Whether you realize it or not, they are all connected Brad.

As I have asked you before, why is the USGS involved in reptiles? Why is the USEPS involved in ecosystems? Why is the USFWS involved in the Department of Defense or the Department of Energy? One of the reasons for all of these questions Brad, is because they ARE all connected with multi-layered programs with tax payer expenditures buried in bills that you have no idea about nor seem to care.

Do you realize Brad, that once congress passes that increase in the debt ceiling (1.9 trillion dollars), the federal deficit will go to almost 14 TRILLION DOLLARS! At the end of the last fiscal year (the BUSH presidency), the federal deficit was between 5-6 TRILLION DOLLARS. Do the math Brad, in just 12 months, this congress and this president will have doubled the ENTIRE FEDERAL DEFICIT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE COUNTRY!!!! Do you have any idea about how much in taxes our government is soon going to demand from everyone of us in the next two years?

Do you have any idea about why the "banks" and "hedge funds' were too big to fail? Its because they are "partners" with the government bureaucracies in implenting the politics of change...They've been buying up America in 100's of 1,000's of acres at a time as and creating TIMO's and REIT's (you can go look these up for yourself) and converting our nation's timberlands into investment portfolio's. Why was a past (Henry M. Paulson-recognize that name?) and current president of The Nature Conservancy from Goldman Sachs? These are just part of the financial "partnerships" with government bureaucracies and other "affilated" private organizations such as the Defenders of Wildlife, the Conservation Fund, etc...Don't believe me? Why don't you research what's been happening in the Adirondacks Brad? In other words Brad, there will still be "profits" generated from pulpwood and timber but, it will not be going to IP and Boise Cascade...Rather the "profits" will go to "hedge fund" managers who are also going to "profit" once cap and trade goes into effect...Don't believe me? Who do you think is lobbying congress to get it passed? By the way, did you know that 84.5% of the entire state of Nevada is OWNED by the federal government? Why Brad?

Not that it matters Brad but go read the definition of "socialism" in the dictionary...You'll find something like this...The public control of the means of production, distribution amd exchange and if you have one of the larger dictionaries, you'll find this as well...The stage of economics between capitalism and COMMUNISM! In case this doesn't sink in to you, what are H.R.669 or S.373 in reality? It's about "public control of the means of distribution" Brad - in this case its animals...If you question this, ask yourself this question, will H.R.669 or S.373 actually accomplish their stated purpose? In other words, will they stop the "non-native, invasive species"? The answer is NO.

Why Brad? Two reasons...1) nature itself and 2) mankind.

To explain further, ever seen what insects (not to mention microscopic organisms as some NAFTA countries use human waste as fertilizer) travel into this country every single day via foreign trade? My brother served in the Coast Guard and you should see what's crawling around in the holds of ships or on the docks when the fruits and vegetables are off loaded. So much for USFWS ports of entry, EVERY port is a port of entry Brad...If nothing else, how many times have we heard about E.coli outbreaks in the US (they will continue occurring on a regular basis)? The USDA spends too much money BUYING LAND (why are they buying the land Brad?) as opposed to inspecting our food supply. Any idea what migratory birds carry in their feathers or in their intestines, and leave behind here, as they stop in America along the way? What is the government doing about this Brad? What CAN they do Brad? Now, factor in the FACT that science and zoos bring all kinds of "non-native, invasive species" into the US every day (some of the world's deadliest diseases are in labs within the US right now-where did they come from) for scientific purposes and zoo or museum exhibits...Only they are the only ones permitted to posses non-native invasive species and we will not (anymore than we will be able to cut down a tree in our own backyard).

Who will have "exclusive access" to these non-native invasive species...It does not include either you or me Brad. Eventually, the only animals that you will see will be those that the select group of individuals are permitted to handle, care and breed these animals in zoos or handle in the wild or see on NatGeo, Animal Planet, etc, etc, etc...

Why did the USEPA classify CO2 as an "air pollutant" Brad? Why is Cap and Trade so important Brad? Here's a clue (and I mentioned this to you in an earlier post-which if you read, didn't sink in), they plan to institute a tax on CO2 Brad and cattle, horses, etc, don't pay taxes...So who do you think is going to be paying these taxes Brad? They are bouncing around two possibilities Brad, one of them is taxing the air we exhale (an individual permit per person) or creating a new market of trading in carbon credits (CO2 and its sequestration in the trees). These ideas are being published in papers from professors (and being written into bills by lobbyists) at the same universities, organizations, experts, bureaucracies, etc that are participants East Anglia emails Brad! Go back and read some of the "links" that I provided to you earlier...

Why do you think NASA has scrubbed the space station/shuttle program? At least one of the reasons is so they can direct more money into "climatology" and climate change Brad. Where do you think they get the planetary data from?

Think of this as the leg bone connected to the...Non-native invasive species is found within the Convention on Biodiversity (CBD) in articles 8 and 9...The US signed (Madeleine Albright) in 1993 but the senate has never ratified that "treaty"...But, government agencies are enacting its tenents even as we speak...How do I know this? The Everglades National Park is both a Biosphere Reserve and a World Heritage Site...The CBD is found in BOTH of these UN programs Brad. Don't believe me, go find them and read them for yourself...

You "blissfully" and "ignorantly" stick to your alphabet news, et al...

I think I already answered your question Brad…You really should read what I said…

“I mean, in the overall time line of earth our existence amounts to only a few seconds – and there were numerous instances of dramatic changes in the earth’s temperatures and even its atmosphere without humans. Besides, in the overall scheme of life on earth, who says that dominant life in the future has to be human anyway? Only we humans could come up with such an absurdity. If the earth suddenly warmed/cooled itself by just 5 deg F (much greater temperature variations have occurred in the earth's past-without the impact of humans), what could we do about it? The answer is absolutely nothing. If that was to occur, we would be confronted with natural selection and the law of nature up-close and very personal (we are animals after all)…

When and if that occurs, NO GOVERNMENT ON THIS PLANET CAN PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING NOR WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AFTER IT HAPPENED…The scale of genocide, in order to survive, would be incalculable and would be the closest thing to Armageddon that we humans could think of (short of nuclear winter) on earth…”

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 15, 2010 08:14 PM

Jim, all very interesting reading,but nothing we can really tackle here,.I WILL say that, though very large, as a percent of GDP the projected deficit is still well below that in the years following WWII-so it is hardly unprecedented. Not that I'm arguing in favor of deficit spending-I rejoiced with everyone else when the budget was balanced late in the Clinton administration, and opposed personally the profligate spending of the last administration which returned us to high deficits.

One thing I will say is, that if you advocate rolling back the ESA, the Clean Water Act, or the Clean Air Act-whatever conspiracies and malfeasance you believe may be behind them-well, good luck.

>>By the way, did you know that 84.5% of the entire state of Nevada is OWNED by the federal government? Why Brad?
>>

Lol-you think the gov just grabbed this land yesterday? This has to do with the history of the west following the Louisiana purchase-most western states are (still) primarily covered in federal lands-as a hunter I'm well aware of (and thankful for) that fact.

>>Think of this as the leg bone connected to the...Non-native invasive species is found within the Convention on Biodiversity (CBD) in articles 8 and 9...The US signed (Madeleine Albright) in 1993 but the senate has never ratified that "treaty"...But, government agencies are enacting its tenents even as we speak...How do I know this? The Everglades National Park is both a Biosphere Reserve and a World Heritage Site...The CBD is found in BOTH of these UN programs Brad. Don't believe me, go find them and read them for yourself...
>>

Why would I not believe this? It's obvious.

But I get it-you don't accept the premises of the climatological community, and you believe the risk of what would happen if you are wrong is worth it-after all, humans have no inherent right to exist over any other species (which if you put it that way I have to agree-I doubt most people will go along with us on this though )

Fair enough.

By the way-I NEVER watch network news-Internet, PBS and CNN only.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Feb 16, 2010 09:00 AM

Brad,

>>all very interesting reading, but nothing we can really tackle here

I’ve already read it but wasted my time in sharing it with you…Won’t make that mistake again.

>>I rejoiced with everyone else when the budget was balanced late in the Clinton administration

…Only congress can appropriate the expense of money…The senate and the president can only submit budget requests…Congress was republican at the time.

>>spending of the last administration which returned us to high deficits

See the comment above…Congress was democrat at the time.

>> whatever conspiracies and malfeasance you believe may be behind them-well, good luck

Thanks Brad…What ever one congress has done, another can undue…For that matter, the founding fathers even left us a mechanism to actually amend our Constitution…

>>Lol-you think the gov just grabbed this land yesterday? This has to do with the history of the west following the Louisiana purchase-most western states are (still) primarily covered in federal lands-as a hunter I'm well aware of (and thankful for) that fact.

Yes, I’m well aware of this…Later, the government began giving it away to encourage settlement out west…Go west young man…But they have been reacquiring it…Go read about Klamath Basin…The ESA is a wonderful thing…Oh yeah, hunting is one of the permitted activities in the buffer zones but, that’s over your head.

>>Why would I not believe this? It's obvious.

Hardly Brad…You believe none of it as you stated above, “whatever conspiracies and malfeasance you believe may be behind them”…Nice try though.

>>By the way-I NEVER watch network news-Internet, PBS and CNN only.

PBS? I forgot about that propaganda outlet…Not surprising that it would be one of your sources of the news and now it makes sense as they only exist on the air because they are completely subsidized by either the taxpayers or the very organizations (Mott Foundation, Pew Charitable Trust, etc, etc, etc) that are funding the financial “networks” to form the public/private “partnerships”…Yes, Brad…Between the Communist News Service (CNN) and the Politburo Broadcasting Service (PBS)…You get all the news that you can trust…

In short Brad, you are the shining example of Communist Goal #22 “eliminate all good sculpture…substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms”…You are obviously a product of not only your early education but, you’ve reinforced it with the “news you can trust” on a regular basis…Your fellow comrades have turned you into a shapeless, awkward and meaningless form…Clever and witty (platitude speech of what you’ve been indoctrinated to say) but, shapeless nonetheless…

To learn the rest of the 45 communist goals for America, you’ll need to read “The Naked Communist” by Cleon Skousen…The goals were read into the Congressional Record on January 10, 1963, Appendix, pp.A34-A35, Extension or Remarks of Honorable A.S. Herlong, Jr., of Florida in the House of Representatives…It’s amazing as to just how many have either been already completed (#44) or are well on their way (#28) Brad but, you’ll have to read the works of Marx, Engels and Alinskey to understand these…Current “students” of Alinsky are our secretary of state and president…

This isn’t for you Brad, it’s for other folks…
http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm

Later,
Jim.

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal

-----
CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 16, 2010 04:40 PM

You're really out there on the fringe Jim-have fun in lalaland with your buddies on Fox News and the John Birch society! I won't be wasting your time and mine with any further attempts at reasonable discourse.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

jscrick Feb 15, 2010 10:38 PM

And why is the Food and Drug Administration responsible for seeing to it that NO turtle under 4 inches in Straight Line Carapace Length is commercially available to the general public?
Never could figure that one out. Sure did change my plans, way back in 1974.
Please don't bother to respond with the standard boilerplate rationalization. I've already heard it way too many times.
Big Brother, please stop protecting us from ourselves. Please stop underwriting and subsidizing ignorant behavior with my tax dollars. Please stop destroying that personal character attribute of an individual being personally responsible for his/her actions.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

natsamjosh Feb 15, 2010 10:42 AM

"When I graduated from college, I thought I’d be making a difference for the environment but I came to realize over time, that this was not the case."

Hi Jim,

This statement hits home, and I think sums up a huge problem we (Americans) face today. I'm not in academia, nor do have a degree in the biological sciences, but I do know enough to realize that science is not science anymore... especially when the government is controlling/funding the science. I've spent a lot of time over the last year looking into this "python ban" movement. It's been a real eye opener. I didn't know such hysteria could be created over something for which there is really no evidence or statistics backing it up. What many (most?) government "scientists" are doing is not even science at all, by definition. Just one blatant example is the USGS releasing/publishing its infamous Python range map report BEFORE any attempt to back up the far-fetched theory with real-life experimentation. Another blatant example is that the Burmese pythons are "devastating" the Everglades ecosystem. No
evidence to support that either. But it doesn't matter, I guess, if you control the media and repeat lies often enough, this all becomes truth. Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

I recently read an article in "Wired" magazine. It was quite interesting. It was about a scientist who studied scientists. His conclusion was that about 50% of the time, the results of experiments actually surprised the scientists performing them. In other words, scientists are wrong or at least not very accurate with their theories/hypotheses that spurred on the experimentation. But that's what science is all about, proving theories through realistic, reproducible experimentation. Our government scientists don't do that.

What's sadly ironic is that these "environmentalists", "scientists" and "researchers" might actually be HARMING what they are supposed to be protecting! How many people will now chop off the heads of the next snake they see in their yard after reading about how pythons will be invading 1/3 of the US or watching a "Python Wars" show where a PhD scientist is telling them there's concern for a hybrid "super snake" resulting from Burms and Rocks breeding in the Everglades?

Anyway, I thank you for posting all the information that you do!

Thanks,
Ed

CSRAJim Feb 15, 2010 05:59 PM

Ed,

Thanks man…In almost 30 years of doing environmental work, what I thought I could accomplish and what I’ve been able to accomplish are two different things. In reflection I wouldn’t change it but, as a young “activist”…That turned out to be an illusion. For example, when Congress passed the AHERA (Asbestos Hazard Emergency Relief Act) way back when, EVERY single school in the United States was inspected for asbestos. I mean every one of them! Without a long description, the law via promulgated regulations mandated certain things which created an environmental “industry” virtually overnight – and its MASSIVE unfunded mandate and congressional lobbyists. As a result of this, I saw first hand how many school systems were financially decimated…Which resulted in a temporary tax increase on every citizen in our country (they just don’t realize it)…

The media’s hype and hysteria turned the science (via pundits and “experts” on TV and quoted in the newspapers and magazines) into something that simply should not have occurred but did. Granted, it is VERY hazardous to humans but unless you work with it or disturb it (e.g. maintenance, construction, manufacturing, ship workers, etc) it isn’t any more hazardous than other “silicates” that we are exposed to in life. The body treats it the same as any other “foreign” solid object ingested into our bodies…The problem occurs when there is so much of it that our body’s natural “defenses” are overwhelmed. Am I minimizing the hazards? No, it is hazardous (with medically documented chronic illness to humans) but if you were to see a slide under NIOSH 582 standards under a microscope, you wouldn’t breathe without a respirator much less go outside (it’s even worse in a city). Polychlorinated Biphenyl’s (PCB), heavy metals (e.g. mercury, silver, lead, etc), Chlorofluorocarbons (CFC), acid rain, Volatile Organic Compounds (VOC), SOX, NOX, etc, etc, etc…Are ALL a part of our modern world and are either used in or the by-product of a “process” to make something for the benefit of our civilization. Hazardous? Most certainly but, they are calculated risks of life in the modern world.

We all take calculated risks every single day whether we are driving to and from work or school or eating raw vegetables on our dinner plate in our salad…Or when we go surfing and are “sampled” by a Great White Shark…Or when we see the rain storm coming but we decide to get in the last hole on the golf course…Sometimes it doesn’t turn out like we’d like and we wind up as a statistic every day. There is one absolute certainty about life and that is that we will all die from some cause or another…Back in the old days, we were regularly part of the food chain and were exposed to natural selection and the law of nature and today, that probably is not even a consideration of most people here in America (depending on where you choose to live, work or play)…Consider the following scenario’s…

You are stopped at a railroad crossing as a train goes by…Ever notice what’s in those tanker cars?

As you are driving down the interstate and pass a semi that’s pulling a tanker trailer, ever wonder what's in it?

When you drive by a manufacturing plant, ever notice those Above Ground Storage Tanks (AST)? Ever wonder what’s in them?

Those scenarios happen every day around the world...On a smaller scale, any idea about what might happen if that regulator on that LPG tank that you are transporting in your car for your home grill malfunctioned?

Or what about if your pilot light goes out on your gas stove, you come home from work and flick on the light switch?

I guarantee you, under the proper conditions, you’d most certainly be a statistic if something went horribly wrong but, life without them…Well, our forefathers wrote about it and even then, in their day, there were hazards to life and limb that they never even knew about. Or perhaps, we could go back to being hunter/gatherers and risk being part of the food chain again…The question is, which century do you want to live in? In short, there are people (e.g. fire marshals) and agencies (e.g. AIA or NFPA) that work behind the scenes on a daily basis to "mitigate" or "minimize" the risks but, cannot eliminate them entirely...And sometimes we hear about it on the news...

After all, we CAN build a building that is completely fireproof or can withstand the impact of 20 fully loaded 757's but, no one could afford to build it much less find suitable ground to support its weight without substantial (and very costly) geotechnical work and if built, would be a very unappealing place to work...But it would not burn and it would withstand the impact of a jet airliner!

“…that science is not science anymore”…Most certainly and in my opinion this change occurred once environmentalism, conservation, etc, became politicized. Once this occurred, then came the money (I know it’s worth billions of dollars domestically and add in the international component and it’s worth trillions), then came the organizations, then came the lobbyists and politicians and then came the “science”. Over time, the hard sciences were blended into the theoretical “social” sciences and this resulted in the “grey areas” that are subject to propaganda and interpretation (lawyers).

These days, we hear such concepts of environmental “justice”…Really? This concept allows from the lawyers (pro-bono) to interject themselves into the process and viola! It resembles nothing of what environmentalism or conservation once were as they have “morphed” into something that is unrecognizable as its about the politics of control now using animals and the environment as the propaganda banner to get a law passed, to solve a problem, to generate a government program, which needs tax dollars, etc, etc, etc…

In my opinion, H.R.669, S.373, the Brown Tree Snake, the Pythons in the ENP, etc, etc, etc, are nothing more than a government program with no end in sight. After all, if the problem is solved, there’s no reason for congress to appropriate any money to something that is no longer a problem…Which isn’t good for the foundations, organizations, lawyers, politicians, bureaucrats, media, etc, etc, etc…That would end that entire “economy” that nobody knows about and that would not be good for America…Ha! Ha!

“They” have had decades to perfect the formula for what they are doing…The AHERA stuff was one of their early tests of that formula…Legislatively, things got stated with the Migratory Bird Act (treaty between the US and the UK) following WWI, was one of the early pieces of legislation regarding the protection of wildlife…The NPS was created a few years earlier…From there (not in any particular chronological order), we have the NEPA (the National Environmental Policy Act), the Lacey Act, the Clean Air and Water Acts, RCRA (Resource Conservation Recovery Act), the Endangered Species Act, etc, etc, etc…Just a cursory read of AHERA, the attention that was played to it by the three networks (ABC, CBS, and NBC) and the newspapers and America was motivated to abate asbestos no matter what the cost…Does any of this sound familiar? Why reinvent the wheel? This formula, has worked for them for decades and it’s been “networked” among them, government/private financial “partnerships” were eventually created and you have what we have today.

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

jscrick Feb 11, 2010 10:11 PM

Jim, I appreciate you doing the research to help us connect the dots. It is important to take a broad overview of the whole situation for a better understanding.
Your point on it not just being a "snake issue" is well taken. Seems to be a culture war. Different opinions/philosophies on how to manage the future. I for one am not a big fan of the Intelligentsia/Naturalista Elite. It seems as if they want to institutionally monopolize the management and access to our wild heritage. Why? Because they know best, of course.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

CSRAJim Feb 12, 2010 12:50 AM

John,

Thanks man and you’re welcome. It ain’t much but, it helps me understand things such as they are…Also, I ain’t no expert myself but, I do know some “things”…

I know it seems as though I’m really down on these folks but I’m not. Most of them are just doing their jobs to keep a roof over their heads and in some instances, they actually believe in what they are doing (which is cool). However, some of these folks know exactly what they are doing and are absolute ECO wackos with a chip on their shoulders…These are the ones I’m talking about.

I’m all for minimizing hazards but there has to some level of forethought about this...I mean until technology can actually provide physical - not computer models funded by a grant - working technologies, we have what we have or we live primitive. I mean, you don’t have to run your AC in the summer or your heater in the winter but, it will be most uncomfortable for probably 90% of our population. As for me, military service, hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, etc…I’m used to going primitive. Having said that, I do like to take a hot shower from time to time and cook on a stove (using the grill outside is problematic when it rains). But hey, cold food from a can or vacuum sealed bag ain’t that bad…As in C-Rations, B-Rations and later MRE’s…Ha! Ha!

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

DanielsDen Feb 15, 2010 07:17 PM

Jim,

I have followed this thread very closely. Thank you for all of the time, effort, and research you have put into this. It has been very interesting and informative...and all for common sense...something that is not so common in todays " so called educated society."

Do you realize that you should be declared "and endangered species?" LOL Again, thanks for the time and effort of this thread.

Dan

CSRAJim Feb 15, 2010 08:11 PM

Dan,

Thanks and maybe sooner than I think…When I heard the President talking about a “new” civilian police force as well trained and funded as the military…Well, what happened in the Weimar Republic came to mind…Most of the people in Germany had no idea about what was going on until after VE day in Europe…And they were forced by the allies to exhume and bury the bodies in the “work will set you free” camps.

Go vote and take your friends with you!

I knows what I knows and the staff of my congressman knows it as well. Many years ago, I was an "activist" for what I thought I could change and/or make a difference...Now I'm an "activist" for another cause...My freedom to work with what I want to work with and be able to ship them to others who want to do the same.

The closest zoo is more than a 100 miles away and I can see more variety of herps at a show than in any zoo in the country. In fact, when I go to a "hot" show, I can be within inches of some of the deadliest animals (e.g vipers, cobras and mambas) on the planet and the selection is far superior than any zoo I could travel to. Although I no longer work with "hot" specimens, I really admire the folks that can and do...And champion their work to continue to do what they do and everybody else as well...

For better or for worse, no matter how it turns out, I tried…

Later,
Jim

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CSRAJim

brhaco Feb 15, 2010 08:24 PM

See Jim, here in this post you don't really say anything I don't agree with-because here you're not trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater!

I do think you're choice of "burn coal or freeze or roast" is no longer warranted-By using electricity efficiently and super-insulating, by next season I'll be able to go off the grid totally with a solar photovoltaic system -yes it will take a few years to pay for itself, but once it does I'll be sitting pretty....lots of other folks already have, especially here in Texas.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

CSRAJim Feb 16, 2010 09:09 AM

Brad,

>>not trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater!

That depends on what the metaphoric baby is…

>>I do think you're choice of "burn coal or freeze or roast" is no longer warranted-By using electricity efficiently and super-insulating, by next season I'll be able to go off the grid totally with a solar photovoltaic system -yes it will take a few years to pay for itself, but once it does I'll be sitting pretty....lots of other folks already have, especially here in Texas.

This is simply choice Brad…

Yes, this technology works for small applications but not for cities Brad (therefore impractical for the entire nation)…I hope you live in a large city as, once the biosphere reserve program is fully in place…You’ll have to move…But fear not, you can always donate your home and land to the Nature Conservancy for a tax deduction that will not pay off your mortgage…You may have wasted your money here…

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

jscrick Feb 17, 2010 07:23 AM

I like this one --

"Yes, this technology works for small applications but not for cities Brad (therefore impractical for the entire nation)…I hope you live in a large city as, once the biosphere reserve program is fully in place…You’ll have to move…But fear not, you can always donate your home and land to the Nature Conservancy for a tax deduction that will not pay off your mortgage…You may have wasted your money here…"

Biosphere Program is the thing I was trying to remember the name of. In my mind, this is when the lunacy really got started.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

CSRAJim Feb 19, 2010 10:02 AM

John,

Thanks man but unfortunately, the Biosphere Reserve Program was not the first one and is just one of the “programs” that we need to be concerned about as from this, the Man and the Biosphere (MAB) Program was formerly developed in the early 90’s here in the US but, as a concept, the idea has existed since 1968. In fact, in 1971, Nixon and Brezhnev signed a treaty agreeing to create “biosphere reserves” in their respective countries. I’m not certain when the UN was involved in this…

As things are now, there are BOTH and domestic and international biosphere reserve programs and some of the others include the World Heritage Program (WHP), CITES, the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD), etc…These programs are all connected and they overlap each other (multiple intergovernmental and governmental agencies) that include and allow the “partnership” of NGO’s, GSE’s and private organizations and foundations (for additional financing as using just tax payer funds was taking too long)…

When you read these, DOES ANY OF THIS SOUND FAMILIAR here in the United States at both the federal and state levels? Keep in mind that this was in 1976 (the first reference) and 1993 (the CBD)…

In 1976 the first meeting, referred to as a Conference of the Parties (COP) was held in October in Berne, Switzerland, additional reptile species were added to already existing appendices of the WASHINGTON Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) of wild fauna and flora. At this meeting, the Swiss not only signed onto CITES but they decided to go “beyond the terms of the Convention and to regulate the import of live animals…” in that they came up with the following;

Required the licensing of ALL mammals, birds and reptiles. This requirement included “limited” licenses permitted for Appendix I and more lenient licenses for the other convention appendices (II and III). This determination was performed after “consultation” with the Swiss Scientific Authority. The Swiss licenses were granted under the provisions of a federal law on the “Protection of Nature and Landscape” which prohibited the release (to avoid hybridization of endemic species).

Required veterinary inspection and control upon importation. Import shipments were not released until they were inspected (I wonder if the animals were cared for while under government custody?).

Required record keeping of ALL “traders”. This requirement includes not only “acquisitions” but SALES of protected species as well with the exception of Mediterranean land tortoise.

Source: p. 28, Control of the Reptile trade in Switzerland by Peter Dollinger, Swiss Federal Veterinary Office, CH-3000, Berne 6, Switzerland.

From the Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD), there are numerous governing articles that include the following…

NOTE: In these articles cited below, I added the CAP’S for emphasis (the CAP’S are not part of the original text);

Article 3. Principle – States have, in ACCORDANCE WITH THE CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS and PRINCIPLES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, the sovereign right to exploit their own resources pursuant to their own environmental policies, and the RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT ACTIVITIES WITHIN THEIR JURISDICTION OR CONTROL DO NOT CAUSE DAMAGE TO THE ENVIRONMENT OF OTHER STATES OR OF AREAS BEYOND THE LIMITS OF NATIONAL JURISDICTION.

Article 4. Jurisdictional Scope – Subject to the RIGHTS OF OTHER STATES, and except as otherwise expressly provided in this Convention, the provision of this Convention apply, in relation to each Contracting Party:

(a) In the case of components of biological diversity, in areas within the limits of its national jurisdiction; and

(b) In the case of processes and activities, regardless of where their effects occur, carried out under its jurisdiction or control, within the area of its national jurisdiction or beyond the limits of national jurisdiction.

Article 5. Cooperation – EACH CONTRACTING PARTY SHALL, as far as possible and appropriate, COOPERATE WITH OTHER CONTRACTING PARTIES, directly or, where appropriate, THROUGH COMPETENT INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, in respect of areas beyond national jurisdiction and on other matters of mutual interest, FOR THE CONSERVATION AND SUSTAINABLE USE OF BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY.

Article 6. General Measures for Conservation and Sustainable Use – EACH CONTRACTING PARTY SHALL, in accordance with its particular conditions and capabilities:

DEVELOP NATIONAL STRATEGIES, PLANS OR PROGRAMMES for the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity or for this purpose existing strategies, plans and programmes which shall reflect inter alia, THE MEASURES SET OUT IN THIS CONVENTION relevant to the Contracting Party concerned; and
INTEGRATE, as far as possible and appropriate, the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity INTO RELEVANT sectoral or cross-sectoral plans, programmes and POLICIES.

Article 7. Identification and Monitoring – EACH CONTRACTING PARTY SHALL, as far as possible and appropriate, IN PARTICULAR FOR THE PURPOSES OF ARTICLES 8 TO 10:

(a) Identify components of biological diversity important for its conservation and sustainable use having regard to the indicative list of categories set down in Annex I;

(b) Monitor, through sampling and other techniques, the components of biological diversity identified pursuant to subparagraph (a) above, paying particular attention to those requiring urgent conservation measures and those which offer the greatest potential for sustainable use;

(c) Identify processes and categories of activities which have or are likely to have or are likely to have severe adverse impacts on the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity, and monitor their effects through sampling and other techniques: and

(d) Maintain and organize, by any mechanism data, derived from identification and monitoring activities pursuant to subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) above.

Article 8 – In-situ Conservation – EACH CONTRACTING PARTY SHALL, as far as possible and as appropriate:

(a) Establish a system of protected areas or areas where special measures need to be taken to conserve biological diversity;

(b) Develop, where necessary, guidelines for the selection, establishment and management of protected areas or areas where special measures need to be taken to conserve biological diversity;

(c) Regulate or manage biological resources important for the conservation of biological diversity whether within or outside protected areas, with a view to ensuring their conservation and sustainable use;

(d) Promote the protection of ecosystems, natural habitats and the maintenance of viable populations of species in natural surroundings;

(e) Promote environmentally sound and sustainable development in areas adjacent to protected areas with a view to furthering protection of these areas;

(f) Rehabilitate and restore degraded ecosystems and promote the recovery of threatened species, inter alia, through the development and implementation plans or other threatened strategies;

(g) Establish or maintain means to regulate, manage or control the risks associated with the use and release of living modified organisms resulting from biotechnology which are likely to have adverse environmental impacts that could affect the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity, taking into accounts the risks to human health;

(h) Prevent the introduction of, control or eradicate those alien species which threaten ecosystems, habitats or species;

(i) Endeavor to provide the conditions needed for compatibility between present uses and the conservation of biological diversity and the sustainable use of its components;

(j) Subject to its national legislation, respect, preserve and maintain knowledge, innovations and practices of indigenous and local communities embodying traditional lifestyles relevant for the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity and promote their wider application with the approval and involvement of the holders of such knowledge, innovations and practices and encourage the equitable sharing of the benefits arising from the utilization of such knowledge, innovations and practices;

(k) Develop or maintain necessary legislation and/or other regulatory provisions for the threatened species and populations;

(l) Where significant adverse effects on biological diversity has been determined to Article 7, regulate or manage the relevant processes and categories of activities; and

(m) Cooperate in providing financial and other support for in-situ conservation outlined in subparagraphs (a) to (1) above, particularly to developing countries.

Article 9 – Ex-situ Conservation – EACH CONTRACTING PARTY SHALL, as far as possible and appropriate, and predominantly for the purpose of completing in-situ measures:

(a) Adopt policies for the ex-situ conservation components of biological diversity, preferably in the country of origin of such components;

(b) Establish and maintain facilities for ex-situ conservation of and research on plants, animals and micro-organisms, preferably in the country of origin of genetic resources;

(c) Adopt measures for the recovery and rehabilitation of threatened species and for their reintroduction into their natural habitats under appropriate conditions;

(d) Regulate and manage collection of biological resources from natural habitats for ex-situ conservation purposes so as not to threaten ecosystems and in-situ populations of species, except where special temporary ex-situ measures are required under subparagraph (c) above; and

(e) Cooperate in providing financial and other support for ex-situ conservation outlined in subparagraphs (a) to (d) above and in the establishment and maintenance of ex-situ conservation facilities in developing countries.

Article 10 – Sustainable Use of Components of Biological Diversity
EACH CONTRACTING PARTY SHALL, as far as possible and as appropriate;

(a) INTEGRATE CONSIDERATION OF THE CONSERVATION AND SUSTAINABLE USE OF BIOLOGICAL RESOURCES INTO NATIONAL DECISION-MAKING;

(b) Adopt measures relating to the use of biological resources to avoid or minimize adverse impacts on biological diversity;

(c) Protect and encourage customary use of biological resources in accordance with traditional cultural practices that are compatible with conservation or sustainable use requirements;

(d) Support local populations to develop and implement remedial action in degraded areas where biological diversity has been reduced;

(e) Encourage cooperation between its governmental authorities and its private sector in developing methods for sustainable use of biological resources;

Article 11 – Incentive Measures – EACH CONTRACTING PARTY SHALL, as far as possible and as appropriate, ADOPT ECONOMICALLY AND SOCIALLY SOUND MEASURES THAT ACT AS INCENTIVES FOR THE CONSERVATION AND SUSTAINABLE USE OF COMPONENTS OF BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITTY;

Source: Multilateral, Convention on biological diversity (with annexes), Concluded at Ri de Janeiro on June 5, 1992, Authentic texts: Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian, and Spanish; Registered ex officio on 29 December 1993.

The CBD “contract” was signed by Secretary of State Madeleine Albright on June 4, 1993 for the United States. However, by the provisions of the Constitution, this treaty (contract) was never ratified by two-thirds of the members present in the US Senate. Therefore, this “contract” does not formerly exist between the US and the UN but, after reading the articles above, it is quite clear that numerous “entities” of government (and politicians) have voluntarily adopted the CBD…

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

jscrick Feb 19, 2010 01:25 PM

Jim, I was thinking the "Bioshere" was the experimental self contained, self sufficient dome thing they built in Arizona. Seems like that was back in the 1980's. My understanding was that it wasn't successful -- a flop.
The same, or not the same?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Calparsoni Feb 19, 2010 04:17 PM

That was the Biosphere II project and yes it was a failure on the level that they did not manage to keep it totally self contained for the length of the experiment. I believe they had to let in more air towards the end as oxygen got low and I believe their food supply ran rather low. Ultimately it was not really a failure if you consider that it was one of only 3 similar projects, the eden project in England (which has different objectives but is similar in nature.) and a project in Russia that predated Biosphere II. The name of that project escapes me (it wasn't biosphere I...that is earth according to the scientists behind the project.). Ecosystems are incredibly complex machines and trying to recreate several different ones in a 2 1/2 acre enclosure is a difficult task at best and creating it to sustain several humans for a prolonged period and still be completely self contained makes it much more difficult.
Just like any other experiment they may have failed to achieve their goal but what they learned will greatly improve the success of the next attempt.

CSRAJim Feb 19, 2010 06:56 PM

Calparsoni,

Yeah, I remember that project...It's been a long time but, weren't those projects related to the future exploration of Mars via support from a moon base and/or space station? Could be wrong here...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

CSRAJim Feb 19, 2010 06:50 PM

John,

Sorry man, that is not what I was talking about…You’ll have to go and read these to get an idea about what the “Biosphere Reserve Program” and the “Man and the Biosphere Program” are about…They occur both within the US and within the UN...

http://www.rms.nau.edu/usamab/MAB_web_documents/USBRA description.pdf

http://www.rmrs.nau.edu/usamab/MAB_web_documents/STRATEGIC PLAN FOR USMAB 1994.pdf

http://www.fabr.ca/pdfs2008/E_MAPfinal.pdf

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0010/001038/103849Eb.pdf

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0015/001584/158417E.pdf

http://www.rms.nau.edu/usamab/MAB_web_documents/solving the puzzle.pdf

http://www.rms.nau.edu/usamab/MAB_web_documents/Workshop Report.pdf

In 1993, the "President's Council on Sustainable Development" was created by Executive Order No. 12852 (June 29, 1993)...Scroll down to Chapter 1, Goal #4 and read what's under "EXOTIC SPECIES"...Compare that statement to H.R.669, S.373 and H.R.2811...Anything familiar here from back in 1993?

Vision Statement

Our vision is of a life-sustaining Earth. We are committed to the achievement of a dignifled, peaceful, and equitable existence. A sustainable United States will have a growing economy that provides equitable opportunities for satisfying livelihoods and a safe, healthy, high quality of life for current and future generations. Our nation will protect its environment, its natural resource base, and the functions and viability of natural systems on which all life depends.

--The President's Council on Sustainable Development

INTRODUCTION

In June 1993, when President Clinton created the President's Council on Sustainable Development, he asked us to find ways "to bring people together to meet the needs of the present without jeopardizing the future.”

The recommendations in this report are not only for government, but also for the private sector and citizens since government by itself cannot overcome apathy, spur innovation, or inspire new values.

Prosperity, fairness, and a healthy environment are interrelated elements of the human dream of a better future. Sustainable development is a way to pursue that dream through choice and policy.

The intuitive and essentially moral commitment Americans have to preserving Earth's beauty and productivity for future generations is best expressed in the concept of stewardship. Principles of stewardship help define appropriate human interaction with the natural world. Stewardship is more a perspective than a science; it is a set of values that applies to a variety of decisions. It provides moral standards that cannot be imposed but can be taught, encouraged, and reinforced. Instilled in individuals and institutions, it can motivate resolve for voluntary change. Principles of stewardship can illuminate complex policy choices and guide individuals toward the common good.

CHAPTER 1: NATIONAL GOALS TOWARD SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT

GOAL 4 CONSERVATION OF NATURE

Use, conserve, protect, and restore natural resources – land, air, water, and biodiversity – in ways that help ensure long-term social, economic, and environmental benefits for ourselves and future generations.

INDICATORS OF PROGRESS

Measuring the health and extent of natural systems is difficult because they are complex; vary over time and space; and have effects that can be local, regional, and/or global. Most of the following indicators focus on local and regional systems, reflecting the Council's work on watersheds and communities. Additional indicators are needed to reflect how well the nation is contributing to the protection of natural systems worldwide.

ECOSYSTEMS

Increase in the health of ecosystems, including forests, grasslands, wetlands, surface waters, and coastal lands:

Decreased soil loss and associated productivity loss due to erosion and chemical or biological changes in natural systems and other lands such as agricultural lands.

Increased number of acres of healthy wetlands.

Increased percentage of forests managed to reach full maturity and diversity.

Development of indicators to measure water bodies with healthy biological communities.

HABITAT LOSS

Development of measures of threats to habitat loss and the extent of habitat conversion, such as the rate of wetlands loss.

THREATENED AND ENDANGERED SPECIES

Decreased number of threatened and endangered species.

NUTRIENTS AND TOXICS

Decreased releases that contribute to the exposure of natural systems to toxics and excess nutrients.

EXOTIC SPECIES

Reduced ecological impacts caused by the introduction and spread of exotic species.

GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE

Reduced emissions of greenhouse gases and of compounds that damage the ozone layer.

Here's a link to the entire document...

http://clinton2.nara.gov/PCSD/Publications/TF_Reports/amer-top.html

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

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