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i have two adult beardies (15-17inches) one male one female in a 125-gallon aquarium with two high powered spot bulbs in one end with several basking spots the rest of the top has a shop light with a uv bulb in it he substrate is washed filtered childrens play-sand and several sticks rockpiles and open areas
i have had them in this setup since june can any one forsee problems?

Only problem I can see is....

A very stressed out female and a very horny male

It is not a good idea to keep those two housed together year round.

>>i have two adult beardies (15-17inches) one male one female in a 125-gallon aquarium with two high powered spot bulbs in one end with several basking spots the rest of the top has a shop light with a uv bulb in it he substrate is washed filtered childrens play-sand and several sticks rockpiles and open areas
>>i have had them in this setup since june can any one forsee problems?
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

Maybe two problems. One being keeping the male and female together all the time. Males will constantly mate with the female. Females kept in a situation like this can get severely stressed out. One clutch after the other, over and over again will drain your female very fast, shorten life span and quality of life. More then likely you'll have a very sick female in poor shape very fast. Number 2 problem for you would be all those eggs, and babies. If those adults are siblings or from the same parents your going to have many problems with the babies as well. Your talking multiple clutches sometimes 4-5 of 25-30 eggs over and over again about 3 weeks apart. Not only will this drain the hell out of the female, it will drain your pockets most likely first. No, but really people breed and do it successfully, but not one breeder, or most dragon keepers for that fact will ever keep a male with a female except for if they are young under 4 months of age, and of course if it's breeding season and the breeder wants babies, and the female is healthy enough to carry all those clutches of eggs.
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Mystical Dragons

You basically said the same as me... but in a lot more words LOL

>>Maybe two problems. One being keeping the male and female together all the time. Males will constantly mate with the female. Females kept in a situation like this can get severely stressed out. One clutch after the other, over and over again will drain your female very fast, shorten life span and quality of life. More then likely you'll have a very sick female in poor shape very fast. Number 2 problem for you would be all those eggs, and babies. If those adults are siblings or from the same parents your going to have many problems with the babies as well. Your talking multiple clutches sometimes 4-5 of 25-30 eggs over and over again about 3 weeks apart. Not only will this drain the hell out of the female, it will drain your pockets most likely first. No, but really people breed and do it successfully, but not one breeder, or most dragon keepers for that fact will ever keep a male with a female except for if they are young under 4 months of age, and of course if it's breeding season and the breeder wants babies, and the female is healthy enough to carry all those clutches of eggs.
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>>Mystical Dragons
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Lisa
www.beginnersbasics.com

As I'm composing my long winded short answer someone beats me to the punch. I always seem to go into too many details with everything I post on, lol. Plus I'm not the best speller/typer so As I'm fingering out one by one these long answers I'm always beaten, lol.
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Mystical Dragons

My daughter learned to be the same way in the Army..they hammer home "Attention to detail".
She applies it to very strange things though, she can recite the McDonalds and Taco Bell menu by number and can fire off the list at will. Not that she even eats there that much.
She is also a human rolla-dex. She comes in handy...lol
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TheClassyLizard

Just because the female lays eggs does not mean you HAVE TO incubate them. There's no law saying you can't just toss them or feed them to a monitor or something. Second, first generation inbreeding does little or no harm to offspring.
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

God, have you seen some of these inbred babies, and the problems some of them have. 7 inch adults, kinks all up the spine and tail, and even some of their organs getting twisted and growing outside of the body? Your just joking right with that reply? Trying to get a rise out of some huh. Why put female and male together if you don't plan on incubating babies? Housing a female with a male non stop in that size tank would be almost as good as a death sentence for that female.
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Mystical Dragons

If you read what he wrote closely, he said first generation inbreeding. Though I don't practice it myself, he is probably correct.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

NP
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Mystical Dragons

I really would like to see the cite for this information, as everything I have ever studied and worked with personally says different.

Do you realize there are others that come on here and read and actually believe and practice some of the things they see here , because they assume with a business title behind your name or posting on here you know what the heck your talking about????

To cite someone that is a professional and does know what they are talking about regarding bearded dragons:

Inbreeding usually doesn't produce obvious birth defects in the first generation, but it does have other bad effects. In many many species, if siblings are mated, then the progeny show immediate effects:the fertility diminishes, the hatching rate is lowered (due to early lethalities; many die early in development), survival through infant and adolescence is lower and the adult size diminishes (possibly explaining the general reduction in dragon size over the last decade). Those effects are seen in the first generation. In later generations, birth defects also become more common.
Dr. Kathryn W. Tosney, Professor of Biology, The University of Michigan
biology.lsa.umich.edu/research/labs/ktosney/index.html

More informed reading and a little less parrotting might be a good idea before you adivse others

My goodness I am so sorry! I NEVER meant to get a rise out of anyone!!!! I NEVER said they should go ahead and house a male and female I ONLY said they DID NOT HAVE TO hatch any eggs, there was a comment about the money involved in raiseing babies, this is very true I raised my first this past spring. If they insist on houseing a male and female together they still DO NOT have to raise babies, it's not like houseing two rabbits together and getting live babies a month later, we're talking eggs that do not need to be hatched.
Next issue, You quoted yourself "Inbreeding usually doesn't produce obvious birth defects in the first generation" that is what I meant and I should have elaborated, and for that I apologize. I know inbreeding caused decreased fertility and so forth. I should have said inbreeding first generation does not produce extra tails or two heads like many people assume it does. I used to breed and show rabbits and among the rabbit showing community inbreeding happens ALL THE TIME. Now I KNOW that these are reptiles we are talking about. But seriously I have NEVER heard of ANY animal that has birth defects on first generation inbreeding. Now the disclaimer:: I AM NOT AN EXPERT nor did I say such when I answered the post.
I was trying to put in my 2 cents, and I should have done it differently, I happen to personally know someone who keeps one male and two females together and had a total of like 3 clutches this summer, the male does not harrass the females all the time, they all eat and they are all healthy, IT CAN BE DONE, I NEVER said it SHOULD be done, please dont put words in my mouth.

Oh, and last time I checked, I'm a girl.

Sorry if yall hate me now.
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DogStar

"Many have forgotten this truth, but you must not forget it. You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." --Antoine de Saint Exupery

you said:

first generation inbreeding does little or no harm to offspring.
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DogStar

I read that exactly as I am sure new people on here would have, its a pretty point black statement, and totally wrong....Then someone else jumps in and agrees that "its probably right" next thing you know we have people on the forum wondering why their eggs are dying or the babies are flipping at hatching or not eating...... because someone on here said it was okay to breed siblings......... but thanks for clarifying you did not mean what you said

I've said it before and I will say it again. I won't pussy foot around a topic because you or someone else is concerned how other people might interpret what it said.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

I don't know you, nor do I hate anybody for that matter. Just inbreeding is a sour subject, and does create problems down the line, even first generation inbreeding does. Well, I just would rather if anything post the safer route to babies then to post a rather dangerous path to take. There are a lot of new people coming here daily, and just soaking up ideas, and planning for a future breeding project. These are not rabbits, but do produce very close to how easy rabbits do, and in great numbers. Most new people who find eggs in their tanks do incubate them, and would never think of throwing a possible life to a monitor lizard. These same people without a clue if these dragon where inbreed before and siblings now. Someone new who just spent 300 dollars on a bright red pair from the same breeder with not a lot of knowledge might just take the chance to get super reds and make a fast buck, not taking into consideration the newbies buying pairs from them who just might end up in the same situation they are in. This time causing obvious birth defects, and major problems. I personally wouldn't post something if there was just a little possibility of healthy offspring. I want to see majority of healthy offspring, and people getting it correct the first time. Sorry if I might of over reacted or past over your word LITTLE to see the word NONE, and knowing it might not be an obvious problem to the eye, but there is problems that go unseen to cause later problems for others.
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Mystical Dragons

if you breed siblings

1) is it possible that any of the surviving offspring will be stronger, bigger, better...?

2) if the surviving (outwardly appearing healthy) offspring breed with an unrelated dragon, are the odds increased that babies of those dragons will be unhealthy?

BTW I agree that line breeding/inbreeding should NEVER be done even though I have no scientific proof. I have never heard of anyone successfully creating a "better" animal that way. Just looking for more info from people who know more than me.

I am always a bit concerned when people advertise sandfire x sandfire babies or any other line for that matter. if the offspring are from line breeding, even though they appear healthy and colorful and large, I wonder if the line breeding might become an issue in the next generation.
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

sandfire x sandfire may be dragons totally unrelated to each other, just that they came from Sanfire Ranch or someone bought the parents there and now are claiming this is what they are.... its not one line, its a place they were breed or the parents came from. They don't just have two dragons they started with and breed over and over and then breed the offspring to each other..... their are many dragons involved, only the breeder can tell you if they are inbreed...... if they even know themselves or DNA testing, which is expensive for one dragon.

A short time ago, someone in the midwest had clutches hatching with a lot of problems, babies dying in the eggs part way out, stargazing and rolling, badly kinked tails and crooked spines. MOst the clutch has problems or did not survive the first few week, the otehr two clutches had the same problems when they hatched, out of 67 eggs, 2 survived. They bought the mother from a breeder in Florida in 2002 as an adult, the father from one as a baby in Missouri in 1999. The parents were full brother and sister, but they did not know that at the time they breed them... it happens more than people realize, maybe not that close, but uncles to neice and cousins to cousins often.

Some breeders did not breed, hatch or raise the babies they sell and have no way of knowing when you ask if they might be related to one of yours already, they bought them as group from the people who hatched them (but don't make that publicly known.

Last month on a Yahoo list, someone that has been raising dragons for 2 months pitched a fit when I cautioned someone that was thinking on buying a dragons from a breeder, because they bought two from them and don't want to hear that the breeder did not riase them or know squat about their background... this is what I said:

Make sure any breeder you buy from, they breed and own the parents. I know they were buying up lots of bearded dragons last year and you never know for sure what you are getting with that situation... to risky to introduce something into a existing colony beside unknown genetics.

Now, the person I said that too already had 3 dragons die of adenovirus and they just did not need more heartache and WE KNOW for a fact the breeder they were thinking of going to does jobber clutches and has had entire clutches die on them they had bought.... a person on the yahoo list had a hissy fit and called me everything including questionable paternity...... actually something about changing coal into diamonds if placed in an area of my anatomy......it will not change the fact that the breeders does do that and has had some problems, I would think entire clutches dying was a serious problem and to a friend that has been though the heartache of watching several die already, I am not going to hide it just to kiss up to a breeder.

when the breeders do it on purpose. Or buy from any joe schmoe, knowing nothing about them just to make a profit. Doesn't matter to them if they are sick, diseased or will kill every other beardie you own.
Somehow, the love of beardies got turned in to a greedy game of trying to oust the competition and be number one, by any means possible. I think it's about to bite em right in the a$$.
What goes around comes around, eventually...
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TheClassyLizard

AUGH!

Now...... inbreeding DOES show problem, in any degree, including first generations. Your statement is a kin to putting 5 bullets in a 6 chamber gun and thinking you have one safe pull pointed at your head. Its just not smart to try it!

But, I also realize for the sake of $$ there will be people doing it... thats their choice and we can not change it, but we can head off others telling people to do it and its safe when there are too many results out there that says otherwise. We can also use their foolishness to the advantage of producing offspring that are not inbreed and having clean lines of dragons that are normal size and healthy... which do you think will endure the test of time?

Already, to many owners have learned to avoid certain lines now because of the genetic problems they are seeing.....I and most people I know taking this species seriously, totally avoid two of the larger name lines or any dragon that come from those lines. Ourself and others seeing 12-15 inch dragons from them with genetic problems and viral disease tell us they have burned themselves out by their practice and we will not contribute to breeding those defective animals.

thank you for standing up for what is often not popular....thinking of the beardie first and keeping it alive and well in the U.S is what is important here........as I know you and many others do, but it's often lost in the shuffle of business and getting that better color for people to buy as quick as we can. We all need to be mindful that these are living things dependent on us to do what's right and I think a reminder of what happens when we don't keeps us grounded. Thanks again Cheri for your obvious, selfless love of these animals.
Tracey's Beardies

ok ok every-body it will be ok i know what inbreeding is i know that in the first generation that im not going to have x-lizards with 98 arms and stomaches growing from their eyes I would be happy to have a single clutch for now i've had them all summer and they haven't mated yet not for lack of trying by the male the female just dosen't have the patience they seem to get along alright most of the time they both get fed adequately and alot of the time they seem happy together however i have noticed the female seems more stresed now and i was just curious i hope i didn't make to many people mad i do understand the dangers of inbreeding i was just concerned for my animals happiness and well being thank every-one for the information im sory that i opened such a can of worms