Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,

What do you all incubate your W. hognose eggs at?

Thanks for the advice.

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Chris,
I incubate my hog eggs at 80f.

Dan Eby

A few of us here in Ut have ditched our incubators and now incubate our colubrid eggs in the snake room. My room is set up for hogs, so its a little hotter than most, so I just keep them close to the ground. They fluctuate between 75-85 deg. So far we have seen way better hatch rates and more even sex ratios. I think this way is more natural. Eggs dont stay a constant temperature in the wild, so we dont see a need for it in captivity.

-Jon

Seeing really good results this way as well. Depending on the clutches, most average 51 days from lay to hatch. The latest was 55 days, the earliest 37 days(this is rare but they all hatched fine).
Anyone else care to share stats(temps & days incubating)?
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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes
http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/hognose.htm
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view¤t=09-09hognose001.jpg

Thanks.
-----
Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

I keep mine at room temperature and I have had no issues at all.
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[hognosefarm.com]

I keep mine at 80 degress,some will hatch at 55 days and some go as long as 65 days

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Brent Bumgardner
bwbumgardner@aol.com
703.431.1776
Superconda Website

>>I keep mine at room temperature and I have had no issues at all.
>>-----
>>[hognosefarm.com]

How long to do they typically take to hatch out at those temps?
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Josh Loehr

Usually between 55 and 60 days.
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http://hognosefarm.com

Chris

A couple years ago I incubated at higher temps, around 83-84
and the 40 eggs hatched starting at 55 days, but at least 90% turned out to be males. All the fertile eggs hatched.

Last year I incubated at 80 degrees and they started hatching at 55 days, and the sex ratio was 50/50.

Wendell

Jon,
I have to disagree with this statement somewhat...

"Eggs dont stay a constant temperature in the wild, so we dont see a need for it in captivity."

Reptiles do seek out places to lay their eggs where the temps and humidity levels stay pretty consistant during egg laying season... This is why they start looking or test digging days, sometimes weeks, before they lay... Their eggs are not exposed to the elements for the most part... Eggs are either burried, laid in composting plant material, termite mounds or in rodent burrows where, no matter what the outside temps are, the temps in these areas stay consistant...

With that being said, eggs from North American species can deal with lower temps and fluctuations better than most species...

From my experience, eggs that are kept at a constant temp (even if at low temps)during incubation usually develop at a better, more consistant rate...

Do you have any evidence of this?? I have tons of time out in the field and I have found, or heard of hatched snake eggs under small rocks, in rotting logs, under railroad ties and in burrows no more than a foot under ground. There is no way those areas stay consistent. Where I find the Az. kennerlyi, the temps can fluctuate 40 degrees from day to night during incubation season. Tell me a place accessible by a snake that is going to stay a consistent 80 deg. during those conditions?? To think that eggs don't fluctuate 10 degrees during a 24 hour period in most of the US is just not correct in my findings. You would have to dig 10 feet deep to find consistent temps. and that would be to cool to incubate.

Jon,

It is true that egg temps are "fairly" constant in nature. Even when the air temp is 100F, the soil temp just inches below the surface is much cooler. If you track soil temperatures using a soil probe and a data logger you can see that at just below 4-6" the soil temp remains relatively constant compared to air temps....

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Jon, it sounds like you are getting a bit defensive... I did not make my statement to start an argument... It was to correct a common misconception... I do have evidence and I have also spent many years feild herping and using temp probes in known nest spots and temp gunning basking spots and what not...

Here is a small home test you can do... During egg season,dig a hole in the ground only 6 inches deep in the ground... Put a temp probe in that hole and burry it... Keep an eye on the temps for a few days... I can tell you that the temps will not fluctuate anywhere near 10 degrees... If they fluctuate 5 degrees I will be shocked...

Many snakes will lay eggs in rotting logs, and under rocks... These are areas where temps stay pretty stable... The rotting logs stay a constant temp because of the composting plant matter... It gives off a constant heat... There are not many reptiles that leave their eggs out in the elements and I would go as far as to say no snakes leave their eggs out in the elements...

Also, these hatched snake eggs you heard of, were they hognose eggs and are you certain they were hatched and not eaten??? I have found piles broken open box turtle eggs in places I know a box turtle would never lay eggs... A dried scavanged egg looks almost exactly like a dried hatched egg...

Nope, not getting defensive or trying to argue one bit. I was just simply sharing my incubation techniques and the reasons why. I agree that 10 degrees is at the extreme for the wild and it is for my room as well. I would say that in my room eggs typically range between 78-82 deg. with the occasional dip down to 75 and a spike up to 85. I will do some tests this summer and see what the ground temps and my room temps do. I bet they will be pretty close.

And yes, the eggs in the wild were all hatched. They were still attached to each other, in a very natural looking position with perfect egg tooth slits in every one. One hatched clutch was found under a rock exposed to direct sunlight. The rock was only 3" thick at best. the under side of rocks that size get warm in the day and cool off at night. That's why we flip that type of rock for snakes in the spring. It gives a sheltered warm area for the snakes to hide during the day.

I have to agree strongly with you, Gregg-temps even a few inches underground are extremely stable over the summer in most of the U.S. I've done similar experiments burying min/max thermometers in various spots and you seldom get even a two degree variance over the course of several weeks. I also have seen some professional herp field studies which have reached similar conclusions-I'll try to look up a couple....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Check out the chart on page 277-shows a range in nest temps for Illinois Chelydra serpentina (snapping turtles) of only 2-5 degrees over the entire incubation period.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~fjanzen/pdf/02Ecology.pdf
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Thanks for the link.

5 degrees is closer to what I have said than a constant temperature of say 82 degrees precisely controlled by a digital thermostat in an insulated incubator for the entire duration of the incubation. Plus, it seems that the day/night temps are quite a bit more consistent in Illinois than the desert areas I am used to. It looks like a good average is only 15 degrees from day to night. I bet a similar study in a more harsh environment would show a higher fluctuation.

I still believe N. American reptiles eggs are pretty tolerable to temperature fluctuations and most likely deal with it to some extent in the wild. I guess I'm going to have to plant a bunch of cheap radio shack high/low thermometers this summer..

Perhaps its just here in the harsh climate of the high desert, but we do have times when it can fluctuate 50-60 deg. from day to night. Regardless, a few of my friends and I have ditched the incubators and gone to a more variable incubation temperature and it has given nothing but good results. It may just be coincidence, but it works for us. Plus we don't have to have a big ol' gutted refrigerator in our snake rooms anymore.

I guess the next time someone asks how to incubate an egg, the answer should just simply be keep them about 80 degrees.

Not at all Jon-if it works, it works!
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

LOL, good answer.
I have incubated corn eggs in my room a couple of times due to lack of space in the cooker and it worked fine for them.
I did notice that the temp in the egg boxs didn't fluctuate all that much, due to the latent heat associated with moist vermiculite.

You mean you didn't like the old 70's fridgabators! LOL Mine was puke yellow! loved that thing.
I've since updated to a homemade oak cooker that my wife likes much better in the family room.

-----
Steve Perry
North Idaho.

Nice. Is it just lined with styrofoam?

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Incubation temp shouldn't effect sex ratio in hognose since they have genetic sex determination.... your skewed sex ratio might have been a fluke. You would need to have several replications with a larger sample size in order to properly claim that temp effects sex ratio....

Interesting observation though...

Thanks,
Chris
-----
Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Chris

No thanks, I'm not going to try to replicate that again. LOL. I'd be happy to have you try the experiment this year and report your findings. Two other hognose breeders have had similar results at the higher temps. It has to be more than just a coincidence, but I'm not arguing the point, only relating what happended to me.

Wendell

I'll do the test again, just as I have for the past four years.
83 degrees, and I can attest that the sex ratio has nothing to do with the temps. I will tell you that one pairing of het albinos will throw mostly males every time these two are bred, but the other clutchs show fairly even ratios. What I may do this year also is to leave some in the snake room to hatch, I'll try to remember to leave the het albino pair's clutch at room temp also, but I'm guessing that they will still throw mostly males, as always.
Thanks,
Steve
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Steve Perry
North Idaho.

Hi Steve

If one pair produced all males, or mostly males, I would understand that. But I got fertile eggs from 6 females that year and over 90% were males. Only one female was from the same clutch as my male. The others came from another source, double hets, supposedly Lazik stock. If you want to try the experiment you need to incubate at 85 degrees, not 83. I know 2 degrees shouldn't matter, but that was what mine were incubated at that year.

Eggs from my same male and his het clutchmate were incubated at lower temps last year and the sex ratio was more like 50%. I had given all the other females to my son, so did not use them last year.

Wendell

Well, just from a perspective of the research to date, I can tell everyone that no snake species has ever been shown to exhibit TDSD-all species studied rely on sex chromosomes.

Almost certainly these results are statistical anomalies-like flipping a coin and getting "heads" 10 times in a row.....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Check out the chart on page 277-shows a range in nest temps for Illinois Chelydra serpentina (snapping turtles) of only 2-5 degrees over the entire incubation period.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~fjanzen/pdf/02Ecology.pdf
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad, All the data I've read supports what you stated. But it sure had me wondering. LOL.

Wendell

I will most likely only do the 83, and some at room temp. I have incubated many many clutches of colubrid eggs at many different temps. I have had very bad luck cooking eggs(colubrid)at or above 85, and only once did I intentially set the temp at 85 the other time I had a problem with the probe off my herpstat and only after I had lost several clutches did I realize my temps were off. Oops, lesson learned, Always check the secondary thermometers! lol
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Steve Perry
North Idaho.

In 2008,
*My hatch ratios were 1.1
*Temps never went below 70 and never above 84,
*avg 82 daytime ambient, 70 night
*all fertile eggs hatched except one which died at 4 weeks

In 2009,
*Hatch ratios were a little better than 1.2
*temps never went below 70 but spiked in July into upper 80's(yikes!)
*Avg 85 daytime ambient, 72 night
*All fertile eggs hatched except one male which died at 6 weeks
* No significant complications due to temp spike. One clutch all hatched and out of egg by day 39. All normal size and weight. Guessing metabolism sped it along.
*2 of the clutches had ratios of 2.8 and 1.6.

Please note: I had different facilities in each year.

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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes
http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/hognose.htm
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view¤t=09-09hognose001.jpg