Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While I may have, years ago, claimed to "breed niles" I cannot recall an instance where I did not disclose it was my first breeding. I also emphasized that I lost my male, hatched one egg, lost my female months later, and never had niles breed again. I have said that from the beginning. The fact that you fail to read those sentences in my posts does not make me a liar or someone who misleads others. It makes you a poor reader.

The same goes for the salvators. I cannot recall an instance where I have called myself a salvator breeder. I have always posted my experience for all to see. You are looking far too deeply for deception when I post here and you are missing the obvious. I even give credit to someone else for hatching the first clutch. Although the eggs were cared for under my supervision the actual physical keeping of the eggs was done by someone else. I have given that person credit many times - both generally and specifically - on this forum (it was also on my first hatchling website that I had last year for those hatchlings). I take full responsibility for the lost clutch that you and your cronies like to mention on a regular basis. My mom took care of them PRECISELY how I told her to do so. I failed to tell her to moisten the vermiculite. The eggs died. That is my fault. I have said that from the beginning as well. In fact it is clearly stated on my salvator website!

You like to mention the "thousands" of men, women, and children who are doing a lot more breeding of salvators than I am. I think you exaggerate. If not, direct them to this forum. Until they publish what they do, communicate on forums, or in some other manner convey what they do to the general monitor audiences, their experiences are lost to the monitor community here. I post my experiences. I answer questions. I clearly label what I have experienced, what I have read, what I have heard from others, and what I hypothesize. That you cannot differentiate between those clarifications again suggests you are not reading the posts very well.

You can keep blocking out sentences and entire paragraphs of my posts to twist one sentence out of context, but that is your issue (you can keep score on me all you want but with the exception of your cumingi egg experience I do not keep track of what you do. I do not need to compete with you. I have enough fun here competing with myself to worry about you).

As for your cumingi eggs. Sorry to hear they did not make it. It is rather interesting it took you 3 months to finally answer that question, since I have posed it to you multiple times. Funny thing is that when I FIRST asked it, I did not know what happened to them. I asked the first time because you had posted information about your cumingi breeding and the eggs on THIS forum for all to read at about the same time as I did on the current clutch of salvators. I was sincerely interested in hearing how your cumingi eggs were doing to make a crude comparison to between cumingi and salvators (are the egg clutches the same, same incubation time, etc. - crude comparisons, but a basis to start). You chose to not answer those questions and kept the monitor forum here in the dark. Who was misleading who? Me who posted regular updates - INCLUDING the fact that the clutch started at 11 or so eggs and all but 3 died (there's me misleading people again... actually telling people I had problems) or you who fell silent on this forum on the status of your eggs? Pretty sad that someone else had to point me to the place on a different forum where you posted about what happened to them. Why not just come clean at the same time on this forum? What was your agenda?

So, if you are going to accuse me of misleading others, make sure you have a foundation on which to stand. Otherwise you look pretty silly.

As for your other questions, I chose to ignore you as you do to me. However, since you finally answered my questions, I will entertain yours.

I learn a lot of things with each clutch. I learned quite a bit with my niles. That was easy learning though since I made so many mistakes. The most critical lesson I learned was that female aggression toward the male should not be ignored when gravid (and I probably would not ignore it at other times anymore either). I remove the male now, both for his safety and to allow my female to feel comfortable with laying. I fine tune when I remove him with each clutch. I learned patience is a virtue, and I am not quite virtuous yet with monitor eggs. I learned that monitor eggs are not fragile, hold your breath items. They are built pretty durable. I may even learn a new threshold of "abuse" that eggs can take with the latest clutch (8/03). My nephew assisted with collecting those (he is 3.5 years old and his version of gentle is not the same as mine). Although I expected to lose most of those eggs quickly because he rolled them, shook them, dropped them, and roughed them up I have only lost 2 or 3.

Asking if I will learn anything new in the time it takes them to grow up and breed is a silly question. Of course I will. I am not sure what I will learn as I have not done it yet. I will probably learn what not to do, as well as how to correct those things when I do them. I do not know yet what those things will be as I do not see them yet. I will let the forum know as I learn them (see, allowing others to make the same silly mistakes that I make would be a power play. I am happy to tell others when I blunder so they can avoid that pitfall and make some other pitfall and tell me about it. Open dialogue is what this forum is about not controlling information ).

Do I think other salvators/waters would react or breed in this enclosure. Yes. My enclosure is based on what I did with the niles and with the salvators at my old house. I made this new enclosure in a new house and it has produced. Do I think every possible pair of salvators would breed in this room? No. I do not think, given the limitations of the 9x9 or 10x10 room that I can accomodate every possible pairing of salvator. However, I am confident that if given other salvators, many of them would breed in the setting I provide. Truth is, we will not find out though. I have just that room to work with (I fight the temptation to convert my third bedroom as I may someday have someone move in with me or simply have guests) and until Mushu and Labyrinth pass on I will not try any other large monitors. That is subject to change only in the case of tossing the offspring in the room to see what happens. I had the chance to acquire more proven salvators and despite the appeal of doing so I ultimately chose to decline the offer. That would be beyond my resources to properly care for another unrelated salvator. Now, if Mushu and/or Labyrinth pass on while I live in this house, we will see if other monitors will breed in this enclosure. Probably the offspring, but I like jobiensis, doreanus, and niles. If I had the money, I would try varius as I love the looks of those. However, for now I will continue to keep Mushu, Labyrinth, and some of their offspring.
Salvators

hahahahahaha I hope thats your name.

I would think you had the maturity to think about what happened. I simply read posts like most that come here. Then I see you answering these posts. Now please, without judging me, try to picture it from my point of view. You know, simply someone with experience. I read your responces, and while some are very good, some are very naive(from one without experience) And yes, you claimed to be a breeder. Oh by the way, i do know and understand you explained to me what happened. It simply wasn't me you were responding too. You were responding to people who you did not explain it to. Then ever so rarely, i would pop in and mention the total event, and of course, you get defensive and upset. So its my fault???

About me not being a good reader, that may be true. But I have to wonder about you. I did not say
"thousands" of people had more experience, what I said was, "there are so many people here and on other forums that have far more experience than you and do not boast half the knowledge, etc." I wonder how "so many people? becomes thousands. I bring this up to show, you suffer from the same ailment.

Remember to please put yourself in my shoes, and read your posts, what would you think?

On a side note, people always seem to want me to talk and act at the same level of experience they are. I would think that would be a waste of time and experience. You know, I spent all those years learning something only to act like I don't understand it. Weird. F

To think that breeding monitors or any reptile could elevate an individual to a god. That is very sad. It also shows the mentality of the people saying it. You really need some better gods, you know, ones that can part rivers and turn a river of water into blood, or come back from the dead.

I could see it if we worshiped the monitors and made some of them gods. Like the perenty god, the god of Americans can't have them. Or the Gouldi god, the god of fun. Or the argus god, the god of continious feeding. Or the Sav god, the god of death and dispair.

Hey if someone is good at plumbing, is he a plumber god, or is one good at washing dishes, a dishwasher god. Or better yet, if one is good a self gratification are they a Mastergod.? or is there such thing as a level 5, supermastergod. Hmmmmmmmm?

Come on dude, They're just lizards and we are a bunch of kids having a ball(or we should be). Also, like kids, we should be able to pinch and shove, and pick on eachother. Also, this is not a formal gathering, or a scientific symposium. Its a gathering of social rejects, that turn to reptiles for one of a million odd reasons. F

I'm still seeking the God of Common Sense, if anyone knows how to find it let me know, I have many questions to ask.

-Kit

common sense has to start and finish with common sense. Like, the questioner must use common sense, then be able to accept a common sense answer.

For instance, its only common sense that.

1. a sick monitor needs to see a vet.
a. not to ask other beginers how to fix something they do not understand.
b. then have to pick, one of twentyeight answers that may or may not be accurate or supported.

2. that beginers do not pose as experienced keepers and answer posts that they are not qualified to answer.

3. That, those with some experience understand, that its only some experience.
a. no one is at a level that they do not learn from more experience.
b. that newbies should "not" expect the more experienced keepers to understand and be able to comunicate with them.
c. its the newbies job to learn and be able to comunicate with those with more experience.

4. that like all areas of expertise, one must start at the begining and work their way to further education.
a. skipping classes leads to an unsound education.(as you see, i skipped many writing classes)

5. If you want to be treated as an equal(in this area)then you should work very hard to gain the experience needed to be an equal.

6. Your experience with monitors is not accepted by the general public as a reason to be anything more then a weirdo.

You know I could go on for quite a while. But you get the picture. This is only a forum. a place to talk about monitors, not a place to become a god. (the subject you responded too.)

Sometimes I reverse enigneer how I became successful. What I did is very different then what people do here.

Heres what I did, I looked around, I picked some of the people who were the most advanced at that time(Georg Horn, Bernie Edinmuller), I went to their houses, I looked at their methods and animals. I did not argue, discuss, or question what they did. I simply used the oppertunity as discovery. I went and looked at the monitors in nature. I made my own decisions, as to what would fit me, where I live, my level of expertise, and what I wanted to see, and did it. The Key is, did it. I was lucky, that my approach worked, and the rest is history. I will say, I was a bit motivated by the constant, you can't do thats, coming from the experts at the time. My guide, coach, and leader, was and always will be, nature and natural monitors. Not authors, writers and keepers. That I did that, sure did pi$$ off a bunch of the old timers, like u know who. One last bit of common sense, to follow someone that is not succeeding, will most like lead to not succeeding. How about those marbles, just common sense. F

Funny about that common sense stuff, it just works when one is inclined to listen and apply.

For myself, I have attained a peace with being ignorant about keeping and breeding monitors. Letting go of preconceptions, just letting the lizards be what they are, allowing them to have the environment where they tell me their needs.
I don't know if I'm getting it "right", but strangely enough, I no longer care.

Odd, it was a struggle to get to this place, now I can have fun.

Thanks,

-Kit

Funny you should mention that, Its only here that I am called an expert, or god, or whatever. Here at home, I consider myself a really good butler. Or sometimes not so good, but a butler, just the same.

My thoughts, about the people before me, was that of telling the monitors what they are and what they should do. I hoped my approach was more like asking them what they are and what they do. For this, I get critizied and ridiculed, and attacked. As do the monitors.

Funny how you can feed a monitor, have it grow up, produce several to many clutches a year. Without the addition of drugs, medicine or steriods, and then be attacked from all directions.

Its also funny that the people who do this, have their monitors exsist then die, or simply die, or even worse, have no monitors. Again that should have been common sense. F

Its much too....common!

In that one statement you have summed up the reason people dismiss common sense so readily.
How can it be valuable if everyone can have it?

Funny how people operate.

-Kit

hehe

The population as a whole tends to do things as traditionally taught, without taking the time to find out for themselves. Hence the reason so many people still feed their monitors dogfood, keep them on newspaper, etc. There are sooo many examples of this type behaviour that relate to everyday life as well, but that would take way too much time to go into deapth about, not to mention piss off the Christian Coalition there.

Get my drift now?

Michelle

The population as a whole tends to do things as traditionally taught, without taking the time to find out for themselves. Hence the reason so many people still feed their monitors dogfood, keep them on newspaper, etc. There are sooo many examples of this type behaviour that relate to everyday life as well, but that would take way too much time to go into deapth about, not to mention piss off the Christian Coalition.
Get my drift now?

Michelle

I am not sure why my name is important. I have used the name Bloodbat since I was 14 or 15, and the only name I have ever used here (and any other forum - be they reptile, music, or anything else) is Bloodbat. You've accused me in the past of using alternate names, but then I tell you to check the IP and you fall quiet.

You can claim I have not explained what happened to my monitors. I explain to everyone. It is on my website, the events were on old websites, and most of my posts were clearly listed with what happened and my thoughts behind what happened. You can say I do not do that, fine. Again, learn to read. I am completely open with my monitors. I go in detail with what I do, both my successes and my failures. When I lose eggs, I state so on the forum so others can read what I did and offer suggestions and use my information in their own endeavors. You seem to use this forum for other reasons, but it is about monitors and sharing our experiences with others (that includes good things like getting eggs and the bad things like letting people know when those eggs fail. If you mention one, you should mention the other.)

However, I will apologize at this time. I misquoted you. You did not say "thousands." You said "hundreds." Here is the quotation: "there are hundreds of people from all walks, men, women, kids, from many many countries, that have far surpassed your level of husbandry. Yet, you still feel the need to pass on marginal husbandry and techniques. My Question is why?" You stated that on April 30, 2002, at 15:42:18. So again, back your words with action. You get some of those hundreds of people from all walks and many countries to post here and share their experiences. In particular, if you could get a single, attractive female interested in relocating to Nebraska to post her experience, I would be grateful.

You seem to have an incredibly inflated sense of worth here. You have a lot more experience than most - if not all - here, that is fine - even good. However, you seem to translate that into believing you are beyond being understood. These are monitors not nuclear engineering. The number of times your knowledge is beyond anyone's grasp is far less often than you believe. Believe what you want.

You are so dang funny I am having a hard time breathing. hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Is your name Paul? Then whats the deal?? You called me Frank, I go by FR. Whats the deal?

I think you are very very funny and need to get another hobby, as if you have to go back that long, your in serious trouble. One thing you have to give me. My opinion of you has not varied, and for that I am proud. Thanks and bye. FR, not frank. Ok paul, i mean Bloodbat

y

I really don't know. But it has something to do with, the overall importance of things. Believe it or not, I forget what I wrote here, mostly in 24 hours, for sure in 36 hours.

Even more amusing was that I said the same thing over a year ago. That really cracked me up. I did not know I was capable of that.

Double even more amusing was, he remembered it. That part was sad.

One of my abilities that allows me to be successful is. I forget what I did last year, that way, I get to do the same thing different, time after time. It retains its newness that way. F

Maybe, if you cared about monitors overall and breeding and the ending(impossible) or at least reduction of importation. Which you cared so much about a week ago, you'd guide and encourage this guy, regardless of his name.

I am sorry, you are a bit missguided if you think anything that happens between Bloodbat and I has anything to do with monitors. Or monitor husbandry or monitor conservation.

Your also misguided if you think anything that happens in the cages of hobbyist has anything to do with conservation. It probably should, but unfortunately doesn't.

In addition to the thought, that you may think its my responsibility to even intertain such an idea. Is again misguided.

Seriously, if someone who really wants help with monitors, I try to help, out of love for the monitors . But many here including Bloodbat, may only want to play silly games. And thats fun too. Have you noticed, that he mainly posts here, when his waters are mating or hatching. What is that saying. Who is he talking too.

Now, I don't take this forum for anymore then it is, but, if you look around, the standard husbandry being accepted is what I promoted years ago. I indeed have caused change. I truely hope its for the better. But then again, I am not sure I care anymore. I, like the folks at fish and game, or fish and wildlife, get hardened by the attitudes of many keepers and tire of the tortures they put upon the monitors. Its very hard to not, jump over and join the folks who want to ban monitors from private keeping. But then I remember, there are those "thousands" of fine people, whom are very very nice and caring about their charges. Most of which do not come here.

A bit about the fish and game subject, I live in an area where there are desirable reptiles, people come from all over the world to see, collect, collect and breed, and poach these nice reptiles. The problem is, the reptiles do not know, who is who, as they simply want to stay in nature and not be harassed. Fish and game, has a hard time knowing, who is who, and harasses all of them. At some point it does not even matter. In truth, all are harassing the reptiles, in spite of their intentions. This type of thinking applies here as well.

You may not of been here, but in the past I use to share pics of many species doing the things that are not commonly seen, breeding hatching, nesting, etc. Pics of species that are not commonly seen. Beautiful pics. Pics of rare and unusual reptiles in nature. But I do not anymore.(only on varanus.net) The reason is, even posting pics, without text, people would fight and attack.

Without text, allows folks to enjoy the pics and take them anyway they choose, without prejudice. Here they choose to look for invalid reasons, like envy, jealousy, hatred, etc.

So, now that you have brought this subject up, I will not ask what you have contributed, but I will ask you to take over the reins and you guide these folks to enlightenment and conservation. It was never my job.

I do respect that Bloodbat has continued an efford to learn and enjoy is monitors, I do hope its for the proper reasons, his own enjoyment and not to prove anything to others. But, I have to ask, who are you and what will you be doing with monitors in five years or more. Remember this, 95% or more of the folks on the forum this day, week, month, will not be keeping monitors or be here, in that time.

The real answer, If the government would limit imports or somehow control the costs to eliminate "cheap throwaway monitors" I would then take it serious to help others prepetuate species in captivity. Until then, anything we do here, does not apply to conservation. About being humanitarian, I would take that serious, if again there was such thing as a test that newbies had to take. This test would insure that they, learned and understood, the things they normally ask, after getting their first monitor. You know, so what happened to you will not happen to others.

May I ask, why are you playing these silly games. F

I realize that the discussion between you and Bloodbat is on a personal level, but you are consistently inconsistent with your replies on the forum. You bash Shvar for posting about his blackthroat too frequently, growth rates, daily pictures, everyday things. Now you criticize Bloodbat for posting mainly when "his waters are breeding or hatching." I've noticed his posts when someone has a question regarding a nile or a water, and I think he's wise to steer the general public away from them as a first monitor, informing of their large size and potential agressive nature. Do you not think he fills a niche here? He could put up more common, daily posts, but to what purpose? Monitor newbies will find out about projectile defecation on their own. It's frequently found on this forum.
It seems that you will find fault no matter what anybody posts, but don't you have your own forum to moderate?

??

!

All of a sudden this is a good idea to you. Ive suggested this time and time again, with the utmost of resistance from all walks of varanid culture. Liscensing, and restriction. Like it will ever happen. In theory it is a wonderful concept, but enforcing such emplimentation is another topic in itself. Everyone is so against the idea of restriction of our "god given rights". I ask, "what the hell does that mean'? The right to control everything in our path? I believe that we should have to prove competency to own animals like stadfordshire terriors, nile monitors, and donkeys. ...And to think its illegal in some states to own Culubrids(Im sure my spellings off). I really dont understand the reasoning behind such laws. Wild caught nile monitors are avail EVERYWHERE int the frickin world, but if you wanna buy a tiny little snake in some back east state of the US
youre gonna risk jail time/ fines. Whats up with that? Throw me a bone here.

The restrictions you mention are by-products of simple ignorance and agendas.
Nile monitors are available everywhere simply because they are under the radar, too few of the poor creatures ever live long enough to become a threat to most people, but make mention of a snake being potientially venomous and before you can blink, suddenly it is banned from private ownership.
The "bone" you are asking for I do not think exists, because I believe you are asking for some kind of rational explaination, unfortunately there is none.
To most people Reptiles are not a concern, and to many more they are dangerous simply because they are what they are.
Maybe the question really is, how do you overcome "fear" based legislation? PETA and the HSUS use fear to manipulate individuals to succomb to their agendas, all we can do as herpers and enthusiasts is attempt to dispell fear, and that is a more difficult task than fueling it.
I hope I contributed to your post in some way, if not I apologize.

Humbly,

-Kit

FR

You made a claim, I provided evidence (and an apology for misquoting you). See, I ask people to back up what they claim. You do the same. I backed my claim up. So now you go on the attack to play your silly game. As a wise man once said it is about credibility, and you, FR, have very little.

I have been on this forum from the very beginning, and posted regularly. I continued posting frequently until relatively recently. I chose to substantially reduce my time here in part because this forum stopped being fun. People like you came here not to talk about monitors or discuss the many aspects of them, but to attack anyone who did not fall into line with your ramblings. Any discussion of monitor topics you did not care for were not ignored by you (despite that being your advice to others who did not like certain topics), but were drowned out with personal attacks. It was sad seeing this forum reduced and twisted to your personal non-monitor agenda, and it became boring wading through your garbage to read other posts. You can deny that all you want, but your denials do not change reality.

You can continue to play the victim in the silly games you play, and you can continue personal attacks. I post about my monitors and my experiences with them: the good (babies), the bad (dead clutches), and almost anything else people ask of me.

We agree on one thing though. Your opinion of me has not changed, and my opinion of you has not changed.

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