Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been along time reader of theses forums. Only recently have I decided to post.
This is probably going to raise some protests and controversies, but maybe that's what is needed.
Don't you think its time we began to police ourselves? (If its not already too late) The problems with pythons in Florida are just the beginning. Anyone can go to many shows, swap-meets, and pet stores and purchase a juvenile specimen of what can quickly become a potentially lethal constrictor. And worse still this also applies to many seriously venomous species as well! (This sites's classifieds are a good example)
We may not have been directly responsible for the python problem, or the next problem that is surely ahead, but our contribution to the creation of the market must be considered a factor.
I'm not stating that NO ONE should maintain these anjmals, only that with them should comme agreat deal of resposibity. Allowing them to be as freely available as they are makes no more sense than allowing automatic machine guns to be sold at the local candy store.
We have the right to possess these animals... but SHOULD most people have them? (Including most of us, I'm afraid)
We have allowed our passion to expand, with no regard for the moral and ethical cosequences, that outsiders are going to make those decisions, however ill-informed, for us. To a large extent we have no one to blame but ourselves.
-John

I see your point (whether I agree or disagree), though I want to discuss what exactly you mean by 'policing ourselves'.
Do you believe we should help try to get permits in place for a list of 'dangerous animals', such as larger snakes and venomous? Or should the sellers at reptile shows make judgment calls on who to sell to?

See my point is, I think there's a LOT of problems with the second option. There are easy calls like don't sell a rattlesnake to a 14yo kid, but it's harder to be a judge of character if the buyer is older. How do you know if Joe Schmoe is a snake lover or some college idiot that just wants something machismo that he can throw live mice at whenever he remembers/his friends come by for a show and otherwise neglect until it accidentally bites him?
And in an effort to 'save the hobby', people would make biased calls. Is every college idiot a college idiot? What about people who look like they belong in highschool but have finished college years ago (my group, unfortunately)? Or women? Or even, 'some richie 20-something is gonna come in and buy a blue-line animal and ruin everything'. I know tons of breeders will probably reply with something like, 'I would never deny someone a snake based on their looks/gender/etc', but you know it happens. I've seen all those judgments made before.

Well, my point being. It just seems easier said than done. Hope this doesn't come off as an attack or anything, just chillin' with my thoughts.
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1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

I don't know what the answer to this problem should be. That's why I put this out there - to get a dialogue going,to hopefully get people thinking.
But I DO know THIS; If we don't do this someone else will do it for us and we'll all have to live with it. Politicians build their careers on appearing to do something. We are a minority. To the average person the word PYTHON conjures up an image of a gigantic man-eating killer snake. What image do you think comes to mind when they hear the word VIPER? Laws can be enacted by
(and supposedly for) people who don't that there is a difference beween a spotted python and a full size retic. That's where we are now. Or perhaps WE can do something to to foresee these problems and prevent them before they become a matter of "public concern and safety". Its us or them-that is the reality of the situation.
For example, (and I'm not saying this is the ultimate solution) perhaps before purchasing a venomous snake, an individual may be required to submit references as to their experience with such animals and a cage plan/design. I realize this would create alot of red tape for breeders and sellers. But isn't that better than a law banning ALL venomous snakes, which, by certain interpretations, could include ringnecks and hognoses? This could apply to truly large constrictors as well.
I wish I could deliver a solution that would address all these problems and still leave all concerned parties content.
I guess what I'm trying to get across is that more and more we are going to face opposition and hiding our heads in the sand and pretending this isn't true ISN'T the solution. When the problem becomes unavoidable, we wind up on the defence-not a good position when dealing with politicians, laws, and an uninformed general public.

Personally I consider a large constrictor as formidable as a chihuahua when compared to venomous.I wonder why I can buy a Gaboon viper and the government is worried about a 12 ft boa?
Personally I dont think anyone should own venomous unless they are connected with some research facility or educational group etc.If my crackhead neighbors who cant control thier kids and let thier dogs run loose half the time had a venomous Id be totally upset..I can keep my kids in when I see thier dogs out but how do you protect your kids from a small viper that you cant see?

IDK. Freedoms vs Safety, where do you draw the line?

Don't kid yourself! Its naive to think there are not ALOT of people out with serious hots and big constrictors who have absolutely no business owning them. Many of them have just been lucky. Trust me, Ive met alot of them.
That is exactly my point. The fasted way to get something banned in a town, city, county, state, or country is to let a few bad unneccessary accidents occur. Then the uninformed and uneducated will make decisions that impact everyone.
If you think the uproar over pythons in Florida is overblown, wait until/if a population of exotic hots gets established. We'll be lucky to be allowed to have corn snakes. Its also naive to believe that can"t happen. I'm sure most people said the same thing about burms not so very long ago.

You must be the law to want to make more laws.Any one can own a horse and a dog both kill a hell of alot more people than snakes in this country.I think sellers need to be more proactive in who they sell to but I think all of the laws except proper cageing and age should be burned.Every one wants to find a way to regulate everything to zoos and that is about it.Zoos are not the all of every thing.I bred a species of snake that zoos do not even have or any one else but 2 or 3 people all private and oh my god they are vemnomous.I have a permit any one should be able to own a snake period.When they are ready should be able to own a king cobra.This all got screwed up when the big money came in .I blame albinos and all other morphs that every one just had to have .then it became a fad now it is a nightmare.Oh wait you could be right..LOL
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Archie Bottoms

VENOMOUS
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Archie Bottoms

Sorry to have to use the word 'permit' but I think it's time that anyone who wants to own a hot snake or a snake over X amount of feet should have to get a permit first. And to get this permit they'd have to take a course in snake ownership. Perhaps this would calm down the impulsive buyers that get one before they know what they are getting into. I think that the reptile owners should insist on this permit thing and write it the way they want instead of waiting for big brother to do it (all wrong) for us. I wish this could also happen for future dog (and other animal) owners as well. Sorry, but there are just too many people out there that don't know how to take proper care of animals/reptiles and it shouldn't have to be up to the seller to figure out who knows what.

You're missing the point. Its the laws I'm talking about trying to avoid. Do think politicians are going to give a damn about YOUR rights if an active and vocal (yet ignorant) majority begin demanding bans? Have the politicians asked for input from Burm owners and breeders in Florida? All I'm suggesting is that we take some ownership somehow of our interests.
Again, for example, I own a pitbull mix. She the sweetest, gentlest, most devoted dog I've ever had. But because of the actions of a few irresposible owners there are now places in this country where I would not be allwed to own her. This a DOG-probably the most accepted pet in our culture. How easy do think it is to enact similar laws concerning animals that, whether You like it or not,inspire nothing but fear and loathing in a great many people?
Doing nothing is just another way to allow other people to take control! Read some history!!

In my own sick and twisted way I was agreeing with you.If we do not figure out how to fix it first it will be over.I also have a pit bull the best child in the world.Just to be safe tho my granddaughter is not let around him.Just like she can not play in the croc pond or the coati cage.I know that he loves kids and would protect with his life it is just my rule when it comes to dangerous animals.I have a harley every one always wants me to give there kids a ride the answer is so simple NO.tHE ANIMALS i CHOOSE IN MY LIFE OR THE THINGS i DO ARE MY DANGERS NOT THERES.I have had pits most of my life ,long before the craze.Every one was my soul companion sleeps in the house and is a child to me hell my wife even dresses them we have a curr as well.What I am saying is If you own an animal that can be dangerous always keep it safe from its own nature and from others nature.Long ago I learned about these things.I have been keeping venomous snakes from the age of 11 and have had many dangerous animals.I refuse to let them get a bad rap for some idiots mistake.The problem is not every one thinks like me .To me a pit bull is a lion not a puppy no matter how good the pit is I will keep him safe from others and himself.We have thousands if not millions of people who want some kind of dangerous animal and they do not have a clue what the animal is capable of I do.Yes there should be a way to ensure our passion but how will we do it.USARK did a great job for NC.The law is flawed and leaves to much to the interpitation of the law at hand So to a point I agree with you .
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Archie Bottoms

"This a DOG-probably the most accepted pet in our culture. How easy do think it is to enact similar laws concerning animals that, whether You like it or not,inspire nothing but fear and loathing in a great many people?
Doing nothing is just another way to allow other people to take control! Read some history!!"

THAT!, is the absolute reality of it. When the vast majority of general public loath and despise snakes(from pure ignorance), that is exactly what is in store for our hobby.

Unfortunately, history almost ALWAYS dictates that the majority rules, and unfortunately in THIS case, is the very thing this country is founded on. ........Yes, pure irony, but a bare-bones fact nonetheless.

I have ALWAYS said...."if snakes had fluffy fur(instead of scales) and big brown eyes, there wouldn't be an issue.

The entire thing boils down to man's ignorance of reptiles, this is something that will NEVER change. It has been this way since the beginning of time, and will continue to be this way until the END of time.

You see, most people in this country(and the rest of the world too) know absolutely DIDDLY-CRAP! about nature as awhole anyway,much less the reptile world, and only focus on what goes on in their tiny little "concrete jungle" of a world from day to day. Until THIS changes(which it won't), snakes will always be feared and loathed by the ignorant general public,...simple as that.

It sucks BIG-TIME!, because I have been a very responsible snake owner of many countless snakes for 43 long years now, and NOW I am gong to be at the mercy of a majority of shleps that don't know ANYTHING about what they are against.

The "witch trials" of the dark ages comes to mind here.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

These are my final thoughts on this matter. Hopefull, at least, it got some people thinking.
I agree with Archie. There are far too many laws already. There are far too many rights being infringed upon or eliminated. Ideally, what I'd like to see is a paradigm shift in our thinking. Puppy mills are not illegal, but any reasonable owners or breeders are appalled by them. Bird fanciers are not breeding for winglessness, or trying to market eagles as household pets-not because its illegal, but because its unethical. Yet in our faction, that's par for the course. People pump out herps like hotdogs at an Oscar Meyer factory, hoping to make a profit on sheer volume. Others keep the most retched little mutants alive, thinking that one day they can cash in one day. Still others sell infants of huge species with no more concern than they might if they were selling goldfish. All this is done with absolute disregard for the animals, owners, and anyone else thet may impact.
This is what I mean by finally taking responsibity and downership.This would go long way towards avoiding more unneccessary laws being enacted by THEM or US.

I believe the looming python ban has given herpers insight into what you are talking about.

We all know what can happen next. I think we all know that we must act with the upmost responsibility with our pets, more than ever.
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Mark

I"m glad most people seem to understand my intent.
But I still don't know what the solution is.
Maybe we can learn something from most resposible dog and bird breeders. Most of them wouldn't sell cute little bull mastif pup to an apartment dweller, or a macaw to to a first time bird owner. In the same vein, selling a two foot newly hatched burm or water monitor or gaboon to a novice is a recipe for disaster. But unfortunately, its done all the time, with no regard for the future of either the animal or the owner.
If some one wants a big constrictor, think of a blood python. Its massive and impressive, and alot less likely to escape and eat your neighbors poodle. If they want something hot, sell/give them a large watersnake or racer and tell them to come back after six months when the animal is still healthy, hasn't escaped and, most importantly, hasn't bitten them.
By the way, I think things CAN change. Forty years ago when my interests began in earnest, the idea of such a widespread community of herp lovers as exists today was inconceivable. We can change public perceptions. In fact, it is our duty to so. Whether history remembers us positively or negatively is up to us. But again, doing nothing and allowing the status quo to continue is a quarentee of failure.

I agree with all that I'm reading... I was just trying to think of a solution, and since so many snakes are sold without thought of consequences, or because the people buying them lie, or because of greed, or whatever ... eventually a law will be made to stop the sale of a lot of snakes because of, for example, what's happening in Florida. I'm trying to prevent their making a law we don't like by making a law that we do like. This way it will show that we are just as concerned about the problems that exist as they are and want to do something about it. but we'd only touch on the two main problems and that's hots and super large snakes, not all snakes like they'd do. This would mean that the people who own these snakes will have learned the correct way to take care of them, or will change their mind from getting them altogether, which will also end a lot of our present day problems that will cause a law to eventually be passed in the future if it continues ... which it will.

And as far as pit bulls ... it is an absolutely wonderful breed, but I live on the Mexico border and most of these dogs are turned into evil killing machines ... and they can't even be rehabilitated if/when rescued. What a crying shame. I used to breed and show dogs and found that people would lie to buy one. I would have died and gone to heaven, and it would have made life a lot easier for me and the dogs I brought into this world, if it would have been required by law that the new buyer had to get a permit which required them having to take a training course on proper dog care AND training before I could sell them one. It would stop a lot of animal abuse and abandonment if this were a reality. I don't work for Animal Control, but I do work with them, and there are A LOT of stupid and cruel dog owners out there and out of desperation some states have chosen to ban certain breeds of dogs because it was easier than trying to get the culprits to do right by these breeds. I wish they would ban Pit Bulls here ... for the sake of the torture that they must endure for human entertainment.

I have to strongly disagree with your last statement period.Bans are more laws that put law abiding people in jail.If the laws that are in place were properly enforced then there would be no problem.When you say ban that is where I have to draw the line period.I am a free citizen of the Great Nation of the United States of America.When you get on a ban wagon where does it stop.I am no liberal nor am I a republican I am a American A FREE AMERICAN.i AM SO SICK AND TIRED OF ALL THE TALK OF BANS OF ANIMALS PERIOD.Many dogs and other breeds besides pits kill every year cars kill more than all combined .I ride a bike people die from bike wrecks every year.Bans are not the answer period,its like OH MY GOD LET US SAVE THEM FROM THEMSELVES . That makes me just plain sick.
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Archie Bottoms

Come to my area and watch how these dogs suffer and you'd want a ban put on them as well. Actually, I'd rather have a ban put on the culprits, but you know that that can't happen. I agree... the good guys suffer but I'd rather that they suffer with having to give up a breed than to watch dogs of that breed suffer. And an animal suffering on purpose by culprits can't be compared to an accident that could happen in a car, bike, etc.

All that would happen is other breeds would be used as they already are.You think a ban will stop something but it will not.The problem with every one today is that they want a law to save us from ourselves it will not work.Dog fighters are dog fighters period.I just can not abide by more infringement by our government.Jesus christ the mentality of this country just does not seem to understand that our rights are no longer rights and now privileges to be taken away by the next group of fanatics that come to save us from our selves.You are right it is all a loss as long as people keep that line of thinking.
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Archie Bottoms

>>And as far as pit bulls ... it is an absolutely wonderful breed, but I live on the Mexico border and most of these dogs are turned into evil killing machines ... and they can't even be rehabilitated if/when rescued. What a crying shame. I don't work for Animal Control, but I do work with them, and there are A LOT of stupid and cruel dog owners out there and out of desperation some states have chosen to ban certain breeds of dogs because it was easier than trying to get the culprits to do right by these breeds. I wish they would ban Pit Bulls here ... for the sake of the torture that they must endure for human entertainment.>>

This is the EXACT stance of PETA. www.peta.org/about/hottopic007.asp Word for word. They want to end the breed "for its own good" In fact, when I was on the air for a debate with Daphna Nachminovitch of PETA those were almost her exact words. More than a reptile owner I also own American Pit Bull Terriers, including a rehabilitated fight dog.

You realize there are several flaws with this correct? First off banning the animals (depending on the way the ban is enacted) will cause numerous well loved family pets to become illegal in the worst case scenario. Worst case I refer to Denver law. Worst case also shows, via Denver's law, that most of these good dogs will die. However while I may look to relocate to a place where they are legal because I obey laws, joe blow dog fighter/drug dealer never cared about laws from day one. Bans only IMPACT the dogs in good solid homes, they are ineffective in any fight against animal cruelty, dog fighting, etc. Proper enforcement of existing laws is far more important than creating new ones. Time and time again these laws are enacted, the abuse doesn't end, the breeds however over the years change. Another issue present is identification, not to drown a snake forum in the logistics of these laws, but really when I am out with my male pittie and my male american bulldog, people assume the bulldog is a "pit bull" Breed Identifications are often WAY off base and wrong, thus once again referring to denver, causing innocent dogs to die.

You also realize this will be one of the tacts that is used in the fight to keep reptiles? "Ban the sale so they can stay wild" AR groups do NOT want us to keep reptiles. I often look at the cresties, which are now a reptile community staple. Their wild status, not so great. But this species is thriving today simply because of the pet industry and the support from the reptile community.

As I was at the summit, I will tell everyone with out a doubt these legislations are NOT and I stress NOT stopping at the big 9 so to speak. This will become an all out attack on our community as a whole and that is something we all need to know and understand. Opening the door to bans of any sort opens the door to the end of our community.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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Cindy I think I love you,Yup I do.Damn good post.
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Archie Bottoms

>>Cindy I think I love you,Yup I do.Damn good post.
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>>Archie Bottoms

Thanks Archie,

I have two dogs in the fight against Animal Rights so to speak. I have the heart of the rescue person, but I am part of the community thru and thru and will fight til the death on this. Its always great to be heavily armed too. Having dealt with AR with the pibbles I feel makes understanding their stances here a bit easier.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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The last people that I want to sound like is PETA. They are nuts. They went to our dog shows and were opening up cages and letting the dogs out because they 'are supposed to be free.' I do not agree with a lot of their so called logic. I agree with everyone's words on here about there being too many laws. I moved to this area because I could keep as many dogs as I wanted and fought tooth and nail when they tried to take that away. I told them that I'd go to jail before I'd pay them to own my dogs. I told them that I wasn't the problem and that they should use the laws already on the books to nab and fine the people that were the problem. Once I quit breeding and showing dogs (as did several other's in the area) and thus discontinued fighting their attempts to slap more laws on us ... they won. But since I've been working to stop the dog fighting and the mistreatment of people's pets, and I see just how many dogs suffer at the hands of so many in my area, I'm feeling desperate to find a way to end their pain. And believe me... I don't care how wonderful the words are on this thread the culprits (whether animal or reptile owners) won't read them, and the ones that do won't do anything to change their poor practices. And this is what is so aggravating. My saying that I'd want to ban all pits in this area was like saying that I wish we could ban all humans that mistreat their animals from being able to own animals. It was more of a derogatory statement. Bottom line ... banning all pits and asking people to take responsibility that won't take responsibility will not solve the problem as it is right now. We are going to the schools to teach the children the proper way to treat animals. Hopefully this will begin to be practiced in other areas as well and because of it there will (hopefully) be more responsible owners in the next generation.

You seem to be on a double team .I hope the animals win.
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Archie Bottoms

>> Bottom line ... banning all pits and asking people to take responsibility that won't take responsibility will not solve the problem as it is right now. We are going to the schools to teach the children the proper way to treat animals. Hopefully this will begin to be practiced in other areas as well and because of it there will (hopefully) be more responsible owners in the next generation.

THat is the only way to combat this. Both with the dogs and with the reptiles. Public Ed can be a pain. I do several large scale all educational events with the reptiles annually. Earlier this month I had a display at a 1 day show where 8000 people showed up to learn about pets, reptiles had a prominent display. I have two more large scale reptile events coming up and then I go off to do schools and boy scout programs. It becomes a pain, trust me, but I do it for the good of the community. I think everyone needs to do at least one educational program a year. But hey thats just me. I also do education with the dogs. Working in rescue in both species, I get out there, and I think these small steps may help us in the end.

Trust me when I got my signatures against S373 and mailed them off, the only reptile people who signed them were myself and my husband. I took the time to reach out to folks from PETCO and all signatures generated were from dog and cat folks.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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I'm going to make a new reply-branch, I'm sure this topic is somewhere buried in here. Anyway.

Amongst the discussions here (I didn't see any but I'm kinda hoping some venomous keepers thoughtfully weigh in, btw), I'm noticing a lot of people saying well, the general public hates snakes. If only snakes weren't so demonized, if only they were furry.

Yeah, I think snakes are given a really bad image. Thanks bible and popular media. But you know, sometimes I think we contribute to this too and it needs to stop. For every one of us (including me) that tries to make an impact with educational outreach, I feel like our efforts are destroyed when say Conan O'Brien or any other late night show gets a familiar face with reptiles on the air and the animals are purposely stressed so they panic and start biting/pooping/soforth. Is it entertainment? I was told that when I brought this up, but it really does just perpetuate the fear people have and it doesn't help if we ever try getting wide support to keep our pets.
We didn't script it, but Prehistoric Pets sure did agree to doing the show.
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1.0 speckled kingsnake
1.0 leucistic texas ratsnake
0.1 tricolor hognose
0.1 water python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 green tree python

Thanks, Hogbilly, for getting the thread back on track. I only brought up my dog as an a example, not elicit a whole new set of rants.
Also, what you said was the point I was trying to make in the first place. WE aren't helping ourselves.

DO WE WANT TO ENSURE ALL SORTS OF NEW AND RESTRICTIVE LEGISLATION?
Here's what we do:
1. Keep mass production up. Double or triple clutch your females until they die from exhaustion. Keep the factories working overtime. After all, they're just herps.
2. Lets convince the traveling carnivals to start giving monitors and tegus away as prizes like they used to give anoles.
3. Develop a "Burm Package" for pet stores- A ten gallon aquarium, a clamp light, a bag of hopper mice and a hatchling python. "Everything you'll ever need for the low price of $99.95!"
4. Convince Wal-mart to stock cobras and gaboon vipers in their pet departments. Everybody will want one! Think of the money to made!
5. Habitats are already in trouble, so screw it, lets just sweep through all of them, catch every living thing and sell them off. Who cares if mortality is 80% before sales? We'll still make money on volume business.
6. Push the mutant animals more! If two heads are worth alot of money; multiple heads or eight legs or transparent skin might make us rich. Maybe the trend will spill over into other pets-I sure would love to have a two-headed Doberman!
Sounds ridiculous? (God. I hope so!) But think about it. We've all seen people in our ranks that are not far removed from this. If we can't treat our animals with any more respect than some manufactured product, how can we expect others to treat them any differently?

Funny I have scene that exact burm set up.Then I herd the guy telling the girl buying one to feed the baby once every 6 weeks to keep the burm small 3 foot all its life.Just stunt it it is a reptile it works fine and stays healthy.That is just sick and I agree completely .We need better practice in our hobby.I missed the rant you speak of tho all had some valid points and that is how change is made .Ideas exchanged.
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Archie Bottoms