Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been hoping to have both my females gravid together to see the interaction and this year appears to be it. Eve was mating with Adam in mid October but I never witnessed Kali mating but they are often balled up together under a thick layer of moss and I can't see whats happening all the time (actually I miss most of what happens with these snakes). I do know my other male Abel is a different animal this season; acts more confident and at ease (in the past he got pushed around by his father and became somewhat shy and withdrawn). Anyway, both girls had a POS within two days of each other (Dec. 15, 17) and have spent the last two months in the upper levels of the enclosure where the temps stay in the mid to high eighties. This morning they were sharing the same space which is unusual (body temps 86); normally the bigger Eve pushes Kali out of the spot she wants. Took a picture to share. Thats Kali on the right with the nicer crescents.

Hoping for babies in April.
Paul

Sounds to me you need to get another cage or more. The reason they are pushing each other around is they are trying to get the best spots to warm up and hide. So unless you have a HUGE cage with plenty of hot spots for everybody to have their own spot which meets their temperature needs at any moment, and enough hides etc in both warm and cool side, definitely recommend separating your snakes.

I don't know for sure if rainbow boas will eat eachother's young, but why risk having one female eat half of the others?
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PHLdyPayne

Thanks for the advice!

"Sounds to me you need to get another cage or more."

This cage has housed 4 BRB's for 7 years and two for 10 years. The idea was to have a communal setup. So far so good!

"The reason they are pushing each other around is they are trying to get the best spots to warm up and hide."

Yes, this is correct.

And for other reasons also.

"So unless you have a HUGE cage with plenty of hot spots for everybody to have their own spot which meets their temperature needs at any moment, and enough hides etc in both warm and cool side, definitely recommend separating your snakes."

The cage is 6'x4'x3' with many hides and basking areas of similar temperatures (heated entirely by ceramic heat emitters of varying wattage). Separating them is not in my interest.

"I don't know for sure if rainbow boas will eat eachother's young, but why risk having one female eat half of the others?"

Of the four litters produced in this cage I've yet to observe any of the other cage mates dining on a baby. Though I've found several hiding in the coils of the adults (pretty cool). Eve did eat a still born last year though (really fascinating!).

I guess to me these things are interesting and add to my understanding of these animals (as much as I can glean from captive snakes).

Again, thanks for your input!
Paul

i do love that cage setup Paul.
Is it 3 girls to one male in there? Do all the females breed each year?
And i did always wonder how you work out the feeding with them, do you feed in
or out of the enclosure? if you feed in, how have you sorted it out, to have no problems?

cheers
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Dave

11.17 brbs
2.4 crbs

Hey Dave,
There are two males and two females in the cage. I kept a male and female from Eve's first litter and added them to the cage when they were 9 months old.
Eve is the only female to have produced babies to date:
-6/4/02 (15)
-5/23/05 (slug out)
-5/23/06 (14)
-12/20/07 (19)
-5/9/09 (26).

I feed them outside the cage in a large plastic tub (f/t).

Thanks,
Paul

>>I guess to me these things are interesting and add to my understanding of these animals (as much as I can glean from captive snakes).

But doesn't your "understanding" of the snakes include the fact (or at least widely accepted conclusion) that these guys are basically solitary in the wild? How many times are multiple BRBs found within 6 feet of each other in nature?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Good questions Amazondoc,

"But doesn't your "understanding" of the snakes include the fact (or at least widely accepted conclusion) that these guys are basically solitary in the wild?"

Accepted by who? And how widely? I haven't read much on the natural history of these guys. Maybe you can help? I personally don't believe snakes are as solitary as "accepted wisdom" implies. My guess is conditions in the tropics are pretty conducive to snakes and they don't need to congregate in certain areas like they do at times in more temperate zones. Just a guess. What I've come to understand is sometimes they seem to like to hang out together even when not breeding. Again, I don't know for sure. Of course what I'd really like to do is head south and really be able to study them in the wild. Not happening soon.
A fact: force them to share a confined area and you will observe interactive behavior. Since we assume animals are instinctual....
For me snakes are not interesting living in a tub with a water bowl, hide and very narrow temperature ranges.

"How many times are multiple BRBs found within 6 feet of each other in nature?"

I have no idea. It would be interesting to know what practices the professional collectors use to find this species. If most of them are found at night on the move it tells us very little about whether they are solitary or not. These snakes are for my interest. Look at the pictures; they are healthy and reproduce (and maybe this year multiple litters; hope, hope). Paul's personal opinion is they are far better off in my setup than in a plastic tub. But again, I don't really know.
Good questions though,
Thanks,
Paul

The cage is quite nice...and for snakes that on average are between 5-7' long, of course they are going to be in contact with eachother in a cage that size.

Not all snake species are solitary and many do share warm places if that's what is available that meets their needs in a given area (hence herpers flipping over large metal siding and boards often find more than one snake, and often more than one species of snake. The board provides a great place to warm up and be under cover. They are not there to have tea with eachother, just found the best place to hide/warm up in that area. If that sheet of wood was not warm and secure, you wouldn't find any snakes under it at all, even if you put a rubber snake in to 'lure' others.

Only time I have read of any snake species coming together in the wild, is during mating. That and hibernacula in colder climes, where hundreds of snakes use to winter because it tends to be warm enough or deep enough, to prevent them from freezing solid. At all other times, they hunt and rest on their own. They don't care if another snake of their species is in the same hide or warm spot, as long as they are not missing out on the warmth/security they need. Though in my view, if the other snake is not likely a food source, going to eat them, a potential mate or compete for mates, the other snake might as well be a rock, for all the snake cares.

The only real advantage in having the large cage is there is plenty of stretch room for the snakes to be active and more natural. It would suit one far better than 4, two of which are related to the other two (if I remember correctly from your early post, that you kept two offspring of the pair you originally had).

But from the sounds of your responses, you are going to keep the snakes the way you like, irregardless on whether others feel its not to the advantage of the snakes.
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PHLdyPayne

Paul,

I have been a relatively quiet observer of the kingsnake Rainbow Boa forum for a few years now. During this time I have become familiar with your posts, as well as your setup. I just wanted to let you know that I highly applaud all of your efforts to make a nice, large, relatively realistic cage for your BRBs. It is nice to see them enjoyed in all of their beauty and I totally understand your facination with observing them acting as "natural" as they can in captivity. Thanks for being creative as well as ingenuitive with your keeping practices. I honestly think that without people such as yourself who aren't afraid to go against the so-called "book" methods of keeping and actually are brave enough to try something unique that you want to do the reptile hobby in general would never have gotten where it is today. Sorry that some people can't accept that you are doing what you feel is right while obviously taking pristine care of your animals.

Keep up the good work,
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)

Ike,
You've just made my day.
Thank you for reminding me why I sometimes post on these forums.
Paul

Well said. I think its particularly interesting to see when Paul's snakes decide its time to produce a litter and how they space the litters. We tend to go for these Aug-October litters, yet Paul's snakes produce primarily in late Spring other than the one December litter. The last 3 litters were 18 months apart, it'll be interesting to see if this year's litter will be 5/10 or 12/10.
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Julie
www.[url ban]/gfx

I'm a little late to the party, but I completely agree with Ike.
Paul, thanks for posting this, and I hope you get some super nice litters.

Thanks,
Ed

Thank you Ed.
I've got my fingers crossed. I'll keep everyone posted.
Hopefully with one of these shots (now this is crowded)!!
Paul

I'm not quite sure where your comments are directed. Are you concerned about the welfare of my animals? Are you worried that others may want to reproduce this type of setup and cause harm?
I'm probably misreading your meanings but you appear put off by my keeping these snakes together. Really, you don't know what they feel, and by your comments you don't believe they think; you assume they are simple so you can keep them simply (I infer this from your comments). That is your choice. I will address your comments because I find them opinionated and not based on any real facts (though you state them as though they are factual).

"The cage is quite nice...and for snakes that on average are between 5-7' long, of course they are going to be in contact with eachother in a cage that size."

Thanks. I like the cage. Your right, they come in contact with each other. They can however; be on their own. An adult BRB can curl up on a large dinner plate. This cage has four caves, a stump, two upper levels, and a floor space that would accomodate at least 7 curled up BRB's that wouldn't touch each other.

"Not all snake species are solitary and many do share warm places if that's what is available that meets their needs in a given area (hence herpers flipping over large metal siding and boards often find more than one snake, and often more than one species of snake."
I'm one of those 'herpers'. I've found 6 Ring-necked snakes under one flat stone in a field with hundreds of flat stones of similar size and shape (old homestead), I flipped all those rocks and only found those 6. I could assume that micro-habitat was just different enough to cause them to seek it out over all the others, but I don't know. I do know they were there.

"The board provides a great place to warm up and be under cover. They are not there to have tea with eachother, just found the best place to hide/warm up in that area."
Tea with each other? Good one. Do you really think that snakes are that simple? Based on what? Your readings? If your going to make these types of statements back them up. Remember you've decided to be critical of someone else's husbandry practices. Cute comments like 'tea with each other' are foolish.

"If that sheet of wood was not warm and secure, you wouldn't find any snakes under it at all, even if you put a rubber snake in to 'lure' others."
This statement is ridiculous. You do know snakes seek out the proper humidity, hunting locations, cool temps, exc. Warm and secure? Thats it? Wow.

"Only time I have read of any snake species coming together in the wild, is during mating. That and hibernacula in colder climes, where hundreds of snakes use to winter because it tends to be warm enough or deep enough, to prevent them from freezing solid. At all other times, they hunt and rest on their own. They don't care if another snake of their species is in the same hide or warm spot, as long as they are not missing out on the warmth/security they need. Though in my view, if the other snake is not likely a food source, going to eat them, a potential mate or compete for mates, the other snake might as well be a rock, for all the snake cares."
Sigh. OK. I can only assume you regret having written this. If not....

"The only real advantage in having the large cage is there is plenty of stretch room for the snakes to be active and more natural. It would suit one far better than 4, two of which are related to the other two (if I remember correctly from your early post, that you kept two offspring of the pair you originally had)."
Really? The only advantage? You do own snakes right? Just to keep it simple here; how about a wide range of temperatures and humidity levels? How about real exercise? Let me guess, BRB's don't like to climb right?

"But from the sounds of your responses, you are going to keep the snakes the way you like, irregardless on whether others feel its not to the advantage of the snakes."
If the others feel as you do about snakes you can be assured I'll disregard their 'insights'.

If in the future I feel compelled to share a picture, do your duty and check that I've not violated any of the TOC's then ignore the content.
Thanks for reminding me why I seldom post on these forums,
Paul

I consider your setup to be husbandry evolved. Having seen photos and results from your enclosure over the past few years, your snakes clearly thrive in their environment. I rarely post on KS anymore, but drop by often to look for posts from you and a few others. Its interesting to me that you've grown a second male to sexual maturity within the enclosure and the animals have not stressed over the multiple male setup. I've kept an eye out for your posts to see how this has been working for you. I strongly prefer the thoughts of someone with experience over some internet herper so I hope you continue to stop by and post from time to time.
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Julie
www.[url ban]/gfx

Thank you Julie.
It is appreciated.
Paul

>>Accepted by who? And how widely? I haven't read much on the natural history of these guys.

There are lots and lots of research papers on the behavior of various snake species, including at least some on Epicrates. To start searching them out, go to your closest university library and ask the reference librarian to help you search CAB Abstracts online.

>>Maybe you can help? I personally don't believe snakes are as solitary as "accepted wisdom" implies.

You don't need to "guess" or worry about "accepted wisdom". Go read up on some of the many field studies that have already been performed and published.

>>For me snakes are not interesting living in a tub with a water bowl, hide and very narrow temperature ranges.

I'm all for naturalistic enclosures. But naturalistic doesn't mean crowded with other snakes.

I like your attitude and I admire your willingness to put in the work that is required to maintain such a naturalistic enclosure. But I do wish you'd also invest the time to read up some more on snake behavior.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Amazondoc,
You want me to educate myself? Research the position you've taken? Here's how it works; you've chosen to question my husbandry which was unsolicited on my part, you need to present your facts. Do you really expect me to go to the library and wade through journal articles and graduate student papers?
Do the research yourself. If you want to bring it to my attention I'll make this easy for you; limit your search to articles accepted by the Journals 'Science' and 'Nature'. I'm not interested in what the 'B' team has to say.

"There are lots and lots of research papers on the behavior of various snake species, including at least some on Epicrates. To start searching them out, go to your closest university library and ask the reference librarian to help you search CAB Abstracts online."

It is always fun to tell people to educate themselves. Refrain from using this inappropriately. I did not come on here to ask questions about housing snakes together. Nor did I tell others how to house their animals. Feel free to list these abstracts for yourself or others. It would be interesting reading I'm sure. Have at it. I may even take a look. Probably learn something.

"You don't need to "guess" or worry about "accepted wisdom". Go read up on some of the many field studies that have already been performed and published."

Don't mistake my politeness for ignorance. I choose to use words and phrases like 'guess', 'in my opinion', exc. because I don't know these things for sure. However, I've spent a long time with snakes. My feelings and thoughts are based on a lot of experience. They are my experiences however, and I share them for thought. Again, do your own homework if you want to share with others. If you've done it already than it should be easy.

"I'm all for naturalistic enclosures. But naturalistic doesn't mean crowded with other snakes."

If you continue to say my snakes are crowded without having seen my setup in person and I tell you they are not crowded (as I have in this thread), then you either believe me to be ignorant of the conditions in my own cage, or a liar. Crowded is subjective. I do care about the welfare of my animals. It is my feeling they are not crowded. This really is all that matters. If you feel they are crowded you have that right. If you choose to share that with me when unsolicited and without all the information needed to form that opinion you are being provocative. I'm sure there is a noble agenda behind this.

"I like your attitude and I admire your willingness to put in the work that is required to maintain such a naturalistic enclosure. But I do wish you'd also invest the time to read up some more on snake behavior."

Thank you. I like to think my attitude is good and I've always been up for putting in the work. If you do sincerily wish for me to educate myself because of my ignorance about snakes by all means educate yourself first and share. If you've already put in the time then share. Remember it was you who feels my husbandry is misguided. Back it up.
Paul

>>Amazondoc,
>>You want me to educate myself? Research the position you've taken? Here's how it works; you've chosen to question my husbandry which was unsolicited on my part, you need to present your facts. Do you really expect me to go to the library and wade through journal articles and graduate student papers?
>>Do the research yourself.

Good response! I have often made similar replies when in a similar situation in other debates. I refer to the ploy I made as playing "send me to the library". Now, I wasn't quite as bad as all that -- since you specifically stated your own beliefs about sociality in snakes and then also admitted that you had done little reading on the subject -- but it's still a good point.

I'm putting together a list of refs for ya to start with. Hang on a bit while I get it done. I'll try to post it tomorrow.

>>If you want to bring it to my attention I'll make this easy for you; limit your search to articles accepted by the Journals 'Science' and 'Nature'. I'm not interested in what the 'B' team has to say.

This part is NOT a good point. Very little of the behavioral literature goes into either Science or Nature. I don't intend to limit myself to them.

>>"I'm all for naturalistic enclosures. But naturalistic doesn't mean crowded with other snakes."
>>
>>If you continue to say my snakes are crowded without having seen my setup in person and I tell you they are not crowded (as I have in this thread), then you either believe me to be ignorant of the conditions in my own cage, or a liar.

You left out the third option: we have different definitions of "crowded".

>>Crowded is subjective. I do care about the welfare of my animals. It is my feeling they are not crowded. This really is all that matters.

Oh, no. It is not YOUR feelings that matter here -- it is the "feelings", or stress levels, or perceptions, welfare, or however you want to put it, of the snakes that matter.

Stay Tuned for those refs.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Hey Paul, looking good and good luck with those litters.

Been there and seen his cage in person and it's damn huge!! plenty of varied basking/hiding spots for them to do their thing and not have to be in the same place at the same time.

Is really cool to see them in such a setup where they can interact at will. (as much "will" as they may or may not have)
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave,
Thank you. From you that means alot.
Paul

When I first saw this thread I was going to keep my OPINIONS to myself.

I do not have an opinion on this subject and do not think I am in a position to give one even if I was an expert as I have not seen your setup in person nor discussed with you the day to day treatment of your snakes.

My only purpose in posting to this thread is to tell you that the way you are handling this is above reproach. I do not think I would be able to restrain my frustration if others attacked my husbandry without all the facts.

So without aproval or disaproval on how you maintain your snakes my hat is off to you in your ability to deal with this maturaly.
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JWilmot

0.1 Wife
0.1 BRB
1.1 Leopard Gecko
2.0 Mutts

Thank you for your kind words.
Paul

its great seeing people like you thinking outside the box. the snakes are thriving and breeding which to me says that what you are doing is working.!! maybe your husbandry will persuade someone to write a paper on the keeping of multiple snakes in one enclosure. keep it up!

It's also rare for me to post here, but I felt it would be helpful to add in some further evidence (anecdotal, of course, but what else do individuals have?). My brother keeps a male/female pair of BRBs together year round in a 3x2x2 enclosure. They've produced litters for the past two years (he's had them together for about 3 years now I think), they both eat regularly, seem healthy and happy (as much as you can tell happy with snakes), and show no signs of being overstressed. (When gravid, the female has been removed to her own private tub, but otherwise they're together all the time except when being fed, handled, etc.)

I think a lot of the recommendations against keeping multiple reptiles in a single enclosure make sense and have good reasons behind them (if one regurged or had a funky looking bowel movement, which one was it, spread of disease, etc). Especially if you don't know someone's experience level, it makes sense to recommend that way because you're telling them to do what's known to be safe.

However, there are plenty of people who, for whatever reason, keep pairs (or more) together without negative consequences, and to tell them they're doing it wrong when their results say otherwise seems a little bit silly. It seems doubly silly in this case, as IIRC one of the OP's posts said he'd been keeping them that way for 10 years with no problems.

To the OP: please continue to keep us updated on your snakes; I'm sure even your detractors will find it interesting, and all of us will learn something.
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0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko - Tigger
0.1 Crested Gecko - Pooh-Bear