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I was talking with some people at the KY show today and the topic of Florida king genetics came up specifically Peanut Butter/Jelly/T-. I said I was considering buying a Jelly het so I couldn’t go wrong with the hets I already have. This guy said PB and T- are co dominant alleles and that makes it impossible to have het jelly, you can have het PB or het T- because if both are present in heterozygous form it is a jelly. He had some corns that he said were co dominant and the genetics worked the same way. He pulled up a website that explained it better than he did so I am just looking for the right answer because I would hate to screw up my breeding plans by not understanding the genetics.

he is probably referring to the ultra-mel in cornsnakes. What is the website he showed you?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Ultra amel corns those are it. Cornsnakes.nl I downloaded the program but his had king genetics, all I can find here are pythons and corns. I emailed the guy for more help but I have not heard back yet.

If i've said it once i'll say it a million times there is no such thing as a HET for "Jelly"

Jelly results from the combination of two mutations "Peanut Butter" and Amelanistic T-. IF an animal is HET for those two genes (meaning it is carry both those genes simultaneously) it will be a visual "Jelly"

When you breed a Jelly to a wild type 1/2 your clutch will be het for "PB" the other 1/2 will be het for Amel T-

Jelly X Morph (Hypo, Lavender, Axanthic, Anery, WS): ALL will be 100% het for that Morph and just as before 1/2 your clutch will be het "PB" the other 1/2 will be het for Amel T-

Jelly x 2x Morph (example Snow): ALL will be 100% het for Snow (Axan/Anery & Lav) again 1/2 your clutch will be het "PB" the other 1/2 will be het for Amel T-

Here's the down side: Visually there are markers you can look for to make a guess as to what's what in your clutch, unfortunately that takes time/experience and is not full proof. so technically you can't know 100% what's het for what until you breed a pair or a few pairs of a "Jelly's" offspring.

Here's the beauty: being that both "PB" and Amel T- are Co-allelic it doesn't matter which pair you breed together you will get morphs!

If you get a pair of "PB" hets you'll get All "PB" (and poss het "PB".)

if you get a pair of Amel T- hets you'll get all Amel T- (and poss het Amel)

If you get a pair where one's het PB and one's het Amel T- you'll get all "Jellies" (and your hets will be poss het for "PB" OR AMEL T-)

Hope that helps...

What sort-a hets are you working with, maybe I can recommend a good pairing.

~ZF

Correct me if i am wrong here Zenny- but if you breed:

A Jelly to Jelly you get PB , T neg and Jellies, right?

A Jelly to PB you get Jelly and PB's, right?

A Jelly to t neg you get t negs and Jellies, right?

This is what you said in the past, correct?

if so, i have another question for you that stumped me with a breeding... And it is not the time where i bred Jelly to Jelly and got ALL Jellies. So no trick question. I had something else weird happen this year with the Jelly that just does not add up and just want your opinion.

But first i wanted to know if we are on the same page with the above descriptions.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

~ZF

originally i bred Jelly to a female het PB x Whitesided x axanthic to get the first Pewter. In that clucth was also a Whitesided and the Jelly has no whiteside in her whatsover. I am 100% sure of that. So freak of nature?

this year i bred my Pewter to a het female PB and got all normals. I also bred her back to the mom and got 1 PB and two axanthics (NO PEWTERS or WS). Then I bred her again back to the mom and got all normals again. Then I bred her to a NE axanthic and did get axanthics. Then i bred her to a Jelly female and got zero Jellies and no Pewters, just all normals.

I finally was able to produce another Pewter from breeding a het Jelly x hypo x axanthic to a het Jelly x hypo x axanthic and got a Pewter. last picture below is the 2009 with sibling.

i know this does not prove anything because percentages to tend to lean out. So i don't expect to get a definitive answer from you. But I must be having bad luck or there is more to the Jelly than meets the eye. or am i missing something????

first Pewter with the freak WS that should never have happened.
.

Pewter x New England axanthic breeding 2009-(i did get axanthics!)

baby and dad:

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

1st lets get the WS out the way. With the kinked White-sided in the original "Pewter" clutch, we've seen it happen before when a FEMALE is carrying a trait she's able to produce a HomoZ offspring with ANY male (or no male at all) through Parthenogenesis.The mare simulation of reproductive behavior is enough to get that process going, Fertilization does not need to occur.

By all accounts your 3x het (PB-WS-Ax) female came from a "peanut butter" to White-sided pairing (collaboration with you an Jeff L.) correct. so you assumed the axanthic was present in a HomoZ form. I remember the 1st "Pewter" and i thought you jumped the gun by saying it was an axanthic-jelly... there was no Axanthic in the jelly to begin with (you can't have a HomoZ without there being a HeteroZ).

If you're breeding the "Pewter" to it's mother and a NE Axanthic and getting SOME axanthics it may be HET axanthic (did you get all Axanthic from "Pewter to NE-Axanthic... if not then it's only HET Axanthic)

If you bred the "Pewter" to a HET for PB female and got all normals it all depends on the size of the clutch, if there was a BIG clutch with not one PB or "Jelly" then your "Pewter" may not carry either PB OR Amel. Is it possible to get all hets/normals in a multi-morph project YES! But the assumption is that the "Pewter" is a HomoZ Axan-Jelly, so breeding a HomoZ to a Het it's near impossible to not get HomoZ offspring in a large clutch.

You bred the "Pewter" back to it's mother and got ONE PB... you breed it to an unrelated female (HET PB) and got zero morphs... that i have no answer for. but it relates to the last paragraph; If there is PB or Amel in your "Pewter" you'd get morphs!

You bred "Jelly" X Ghost so hence your "Jelly", Hypo, Axan hets (so we know they were all het GHOST for sure some were het PB others were het Amel)

If you got "Jellies" in that clutch then your pair was (PB, Hypo, Axan) X (Amel, Hypo, Axanthic)

If you got "PB" that pair is het (PB, Hypo, Axan)

IF you got Amel T- that pair is het (Amel, Hypo, Axan)

NOW you may of had TWO MALES from the original pairing ("Jelly" x Ghost) in that project with ONE FEMALE,one of those males could be het (PB, Hypo, Axan) the other (Amel, Hypo, Axan)... this would be the ONLY way to get PBs, Amels & Jellies in the same clutch (besides breeding Jelly x Jelly)

Lastly you got a Similar LOOKING animal to your "Pewter" but you can't say it's a "Pewter" just yet. Personally i can see subtle differences, for example the degree of speckling: the 2nd snakes was heavily speckled from hatch the 1st one developed it's speckling with age. But they are two diff snakes from two diff. pairings so there will be vast differences in appearance. if it's a female. keep it, raise it, breed it to the Pewter... see what happens.

That 2nd "Pewter" has a greater probability of being an Axanthic-Jelly than the 1st one. BOTH parents carried the axanthic gene.

All you can do with the original "Pewter" is breed it back to it's mother and see what you get, that's the only way to figure out what it is. Until then you can't exactly put THAT (Pewter) label on another animal without a genetic description of what the original animal is in the 1st place.

Side note: we all need to keep good records when we cross breed/line breed, yes there are new morphs but when you cross a new morph into another or one that's been around for ages there is always the possibility of hidden/unknown genes "floating" around. It's next to impossible to map one snakes's complete genome, but keeping excellent records can eliminate some of the confusion when unplanned/unusual things pop up in a clutch.

~ZF

i agree with most of everything you said and it was exactly what i was thinking on the outcomes.

That 2nd "Pewter" has a greater probability of being an Axanthic-Jelly than the 1st one. BOTH parents carried the axanthic gene.

I don't agree with it not being a pewter. they have the same black eyes and look. jeremy has it so maybe he can post an updated pic and you tell me what you think.

All you can do with the original "Pewter" is breed it back to it's mother and see what you get, that's the only way to figure out what it is. Until then you can't exactly put THAT (Pewter) label on another animal without a genetic description of what the original animal is in the 1st place.

Jeremy got the second pewter (female) so that i not possible. But i am sure it is the same morph as the first pewter. As you know male and females have different looks in florida kings and so does a given clutch from one spectrum or light to the other.But i know what you are "statiscally" saying. But I assure you it is the same mophs as the first Pewter.

Side note: we all need to keep good records when we cross breed/line breed, yes there are new morphs but when you cross a new morph into another or one that's been around for ages there is always the possibility of hidden/unknown genes "floating" around. It's next to impossible to map one snakes's complete genome, but keeping excellent records can eliminate some of the confusion when unplanned/unusual things pop up in a clutch.

Point taken. From this season forward i am buying a polaroid to take pics of breedings and label the boxes and eggs. This is easier than just notes and filed pics on the computer. this is done more so to help me as backup in case of any questions that are not related to the outcomes.

But one thing for sure the jelly PB I sent to Jeff Lacompe had zero possibility of WS in it. Th fact the WS came from the axanthics made me think he used a ws het for axanthic. Maybe it was possible het and he did not know it. but you are correct that if the Pewter is visual axanthic and bred to a NE axanthic they should all have been axathics but they were not. it was a large clucth and the first were normals and then i got 2 late hatch axanthics.

maybe this year breeding the pewter back to the mom (het) will prove different results. I have seen that abnormality happen before and i am hell-bent on breeding him back to mom again.i know i was surprised at both the outcomes and really wanted to produce more pewters and that is why I put him with so many different females.

If i got another Pewter from Jelly x Ghost breeding and it was unrelated to the original Pewter male and mother, it should stand to reason the Pewter is a Jelly x axanthic homozygot. Where else do those black eyes come from?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

i meant to type just Peanut butter and not jelly in this sentence. i sent a Peanut butter to jeff which he bred to his ws which is what i bred my jlly to.

But one thing for sure the jelly PB I sent to Jeff Lacompe had zero possibility of WS in it.

but i am sure everyone is used to my typos by now.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Rainer and Zenny, great to see you guys sharing all this info with the rest of us! Great record keeping is the only way to figure it out, and as these other morphs become available I think most of us will INSIST on a minimally producing a color guide including "markers" at some point...but I digress.
What if the gene that becomes incomplete to produce Jellies(pb/amel) is more of a wild card than even the best record keeping could find? Could it be a "corruptor" type gene? Maybe this Pewter is a intermediate for for axanthism/pb?? That would explain some of breedind trials wouldnt it? It cant explain the WS but what can? Forgive me if its easy to explain, but I thought I did well to follow to this point without making a sandwich....

Okay I noticed that in Rainer's third picture in the post above, the one of the female hatchling with the adult male "Pewter", you can see the eyes that I am talking about in my post at the bottom of this thread. It has black eyes with RUBY pupils, rainer does your adult pewter have those eyes??? And do you think that I am in the ball park when I say that the WS is floating around due to the WS eyes? or do you think those eyes came from it possibly being a Jelly which has red pupils and an Axanthic that would result in black eyes?? Look at your Jellies and PBs and you can see on some that they have the Ruby pupil thing goin on...

i am going to take a pic tonight of the pewter with an adult ws hypo eyes side by side.

hope you feel better tonight from that awefull spider bite.

I HATE BROWN RECLUSES. that really freaks me out!

YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FILL ME IN WITH DETAILS.

OH AND TAKE SOME PICS.

of the bite not the snakes!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Sounds good, I don't know maybe I have too much time sitting here thinking about FL Kings haha but It's just what I have noticed... And the bite is nasty, I had it cut open today and drained so it's not the greatest sight haha

Rainer on your website there are perfect pix of the black and ruby eyes of the WS Hypo. The ones of the almost leucy lookng ones. And do you still have those and the WS axanthics? They are AWESOME!

Again I have too much time just sitting here on the couch, but I noticed something about your WS Hypos that was interesting.... Your WS Hypo is almost completely white, mine is a bit more yellow on the top, but both of ours have one or two RED scales on thier backs... Just interesting to me because out of the couple WS Hypos that I have seen all are almost colorless yet they have one or two orange or red scales

rainer go on your site and look at the WS Hypo pix and compare the eyes to the pic of the pewter you have on your site, there is a pic where you say "look at the black eyes on this pewter" or something like that and you can see the ruby pupils without having to take more pix

The red/orange scales on WS-Hypos are the result of the "Paradox" in Whitesided Floridana... My WS-Lavender has a lone orange scale on her as well.

Paradox-WS show normal colored scales here and there or a big patch of normal scales, so when you add hypo or lavender to the mix the normal scales look as they would in a hypo/lav animal... i'm sure it occurs in axanthic WS as well it'd just be harder to make out if there isn't a huge patch of these scales.

The Jelly x WS pairing i did was to a female White-sided Paradox so keep those hets very safe and very healthy (one of my holdback females died on me so i'm be interested in your results even more!)

Additionally... two animals expressing similar characteristic are not necessarily expressing the same trait. this is in relation to the link you drew btwn the WS and the "Pewter" with the eyes. Making an educated guess is always helpful but i personally try to know for sure before i say THIS is what it is... breeding trials are the only way to go when there is no data to help support your theory.

Sweet looking WS and the paradoxing is interesting, and I was just putting it out there about the WS and Pewter as I noticed it while looking through Rainer's pix. Hopefully in the next couple years some of this can be straightened out. Also, those hets are growing like crazy, I still have my 1.2 and also the Flame Hypo x Jelly babies aren't babies anymore, they are getting big fast. I bred a mosaic to a Jelly and those hatchlings should go next season if I am lucky, we will see what happens

Wasn't it always you Zenny that was looking at the eyes of brooksi morphs and comming to conclusions. Not that there is anything wrong with that!

Actually the WS axanthic eyes are identical to the Pewter and not the ws hypo. And that makes sense since the ws axanthic was in the original breeding mix of the Pewter. but wether the ws had anything to do with the pewter we will soon see by breeding trails of the Pewter to a ws axanthic this year.

Whatever happens one thing is for sure. The new florida king morphs we will be seeing is endless...

ws hypo

ws hypo and pewter comparison. sorry about the lame pic but i was eating a hambuger in one hand while trying to take a pic with the camera.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Actually NO... eye color was ONE of the many traits i used to describe and differentiate KNOWN morphs...

For example PBs having ruby eyes but hypos not having them. Amel T- having red/pink eyes yet Lavender has ruby red. White-face had ruby eyes yet not like that of a Lavender or a PB... Jelly eyes being ruby as well yet different from PB, Lav & White-face.

Maybe you just limited my description to that because you weren't being open minded... ?

Maybe you just limited my description to that because you weren't being open minded... ?

You lost me on that one.

I was just responding to your previous comment that one cannot detemine what a morph is by the color of the eyes. And I agree with you on that. But it does have some merit. No reason to get defensive.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I have to disagree with one factor of these statements if you breed a wild type to a jelly the offspring will be normal phenotype but will only have a 50% chance of being het for either PB or T-. This is the same situation as breeding a known het to a wild type you only have a 50% chance of the gene being passed on.

I am sure this was just a typo on your part but I did not want Lorrie to get the wrong idea.

No there was no typo on my part. Jelly is a HOMOZYGOUS that is geneticallly composed of two morphs... just as if u would breed a hypo to a normal they'd all be het hypo receiving that hypo gene from either side of the locus. Breeding a jelly to a normal would result in them all being het but they would be het for either PB OR AMEL T- ... because the jelly locus is 1/2 PB & 1/2 Amel T-

~ZF

I stand corrected. Sorry, I was doing the squares by hand but once I put it into the program it proved me wrong too. I found my error and as usual it was a simple stupid one.

Not a problem... GREAT program BTW... i LOVE the face that you can add genetic info along with pix! I'm gonna have LOTS of fun tweeking this for my personal use (floridana morphs!)... VERY cool program!

I know it's not exactly your "brain child" but you can pass on the compliments!

~Z

I have two female PBs.

With two female PB's it all depends on what result you're look'n for... personally. I'd try to ghet a jelly male that way u get jellies and PBs in the same clutch... hold back a jelly female, you'd have a complete project!

ZF

I was going to say something but wanted to wait for someone else in case i missed something?

Nice to see what keeps you occupied. LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I am not who you spoke with at the show but, I am think I know who he is and he is correct. An animal that has half the gene for PB and half for T- is a visual jelly.

I explained this to him a few months ago because he bought a couple of pairs of “het jelly” at Tinley and was told each pair could produce PBs, Jellys (or is it Jellies?) and T- in the same clutch this is wrong. Assuming that the animals are normal phenotype het for one of the two component traits you can only produce one of the three in a clutch.

The progeny generator program was designed by Marcel Poots but I created the file that has the king snake genetics on it. Respond to my email and I will send the file to you

I think that, at least with my "Pewter", there is WS floating around, how I have no idea. I say this because just as my Whitesides, hypo ws and axanthic ws, their eyes are Black and their pupils are RUBY RED if you look close enough and are in the correct light. Out of all the morphs that I have the "Pewter" from rainer also has JET BLACK EYES WITH RUBY PUPILS. This is extremely confusing to me but maybe that makes sense that Rainer got a WS and a "Pewter" in the same clutch when the first one was produced. There has to be something going on that would produce WS eyes in my snake... Just what I see out of my collection. I'm dealing with a bite by a brown recluse and am in rough shape so I can't take updated pix of the pewter right now but I have held the pewter and a WS hypo next to eachother and they have IDENTICAL EYES and the only commanality between the two is the WS in the WS HYPO and the WS that must be floating around in the quad hets somehow. I can attest that my "pewter" looks extremely similar to the pix of rainer's adult male although it does not have as much speckling (but males are normally more speckeled ex: NE Axanthics or Jellies)

Rainer, the other thing that confused me about your breedings was when you bred I forget what and got like whitish pink snakes with black eyes and weird pbs and jellies etc. Remember that clutch? Do you have pix from that???

I don't disagree with any of you but the jelly is doing some unusual things and i have done several breedings with a lot of different results from what is supposed to happn. I will have more het jellys that are het for other things and well see what they produce. If i recall correctly my jelly x Ghosts did not produce a jelly...or did they? When mixing the different phenotypes sometimes it is hard to tell. Some looked like jellies and some looked like Peanut butters and some looked like hypos.The hypos is easy to tell apart but jellies from outcrossed lines changes the look between PB and jelly.

So Zenny do you have a theory on how to tell apart a jelly from a PB beides the black being more lavender in color? ..I am talking about new outcrossed lines and not the original Jellies and PB's. The crossing of different lines produced some very different lookng PB and jellies this season. Have you outcrossed jellies and created hets and bred them back yet?

PB or hypo? 1

PB or hypo? 2

PB or hypo? 3

PB or hypo 4

jelly or PB 1

jelly or PB 2

Jelly or PB 3

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

dangit, i messed up the pics.Same snake under two catagories..DUHHH! but you guys get the idea.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Without being able to look at them closer i'll just give my best guess from what i can see.

Pic 1: Hypo

Pic 2: Hypo

Pic 3: looks hypo by pattern but i can't say when i saw it i'd say hypo... looks like neither... very unique looking actually!

Pic 4: both appear hypo

Pic 5: repeated pic

Pic 6: If post-shed jelly female

Pic 7: peanut butter

With this situation i would separate the pink and purple snakes when they pip. The pink one are generally Jelly MALES and will color up with time. the purple ones are generally PBs or Jelly FEMALES... No ruby eyes on Hypos, but Ruby eyes on PBs and Jellies.

Harder to make out ruby eyes on PB Females once they start developing pigment.

~ZF

Pic 4 where you said both appear hypo. They are two peanut Butters. They came from the 007 PB x Anery x lavender.

My point is i have made dozens of breeding trails with the Jelly. Even you cannot always tell which is a PB , a hypo or jelly. When using different morphs combined you get the effect of the phenotypes in the Peanut butter and jelly forms.The only thing one can do is keep records of which hets they are breeding and take pics. That is what i should have done with every clutch so you can see what i am talking about.

can you make ends up with any of the below?
You can tell which traits are in which clutch by the accompaning siblings. You know the combinations i am working with (007=Pb x snow -aneryxlav, 123=PB x Ghost, T neg x ghost and what i call the quad or quintple hets=Jelly x ghost), so deduction can tell you what they are.

you might have to enlarge the pic on your computer to see what they are. Confusing, huh!

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Has a triple homo Hypo x PB x Axanthic been produced??? Is it possible that it has but we can not distinguish it from a ghost? Also, that first clutch of 123s looks like it has two hypos in it but it is hard to tell and I know the second clutch because I have those PBs that look like hypos but they are from the 007 line which is PB x Lavender x Anery so there is no way they are hypos. Confusing stuff