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What is YOUR definition of a hypo? Does it mean a reduction in black pigment or the absence of black pigment???

It is a reduction in black pigment. The absence of black pigment would be amelanism (aka albino)

Great link on mutations/traits
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCMutations.htm

reduction.

..and it does not always have to be a reccessive. A lot of field herping guys refer to a light colored specimen as hypo.

but in the real worl a hypo should only be reserved for a true recessive trait.

In my own opinion of course.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

According to this, as rainer said, i think many of our "normal" FL Kings are actually hypos as they have very little black on them and have toffe colored bellies. I think calling them hypos would just be confusing because what we call hypos are much different than these normals that have highly reduced black. Also, since PBs have NO black anywhere on them and they have ruby eyes they are actually T Albinos and not Hypos....

I've wondered about that...to me, if it's reproducable, then I'd call it hypomelanstic (as a color morph). Otherwise it's just a light colored animal.

Also hypo means less, not a absence. The term amelanstic is more correct than hypomelanstic to describe an animal with an absolute lack of black pigiment. I view referring to amels as hypo's to be linguistically incorrect (or at the very least sloppy) as it does not sufficiently distinguish the animal in question.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

The snake in picture #14 in the post above this one is a Het Hypo that is poss het for Lemke Axanthic and Lavender... It has and extremely small amout of black on it if any at all... It came from Zenny's breeding that included only the hypo, axanthic, and lavender genes. To me that meets the definition of a hypo, no?

>>The snake in picture #14 in the post above this one is a Het Hypo that is poss het for Lemke Axanthic and Lavender... It has and extremely small amout of black on it if any at all... It came from Zenny's breeding that included only the hypo, axanthic, and lavender genes. To me that meets the definition of a hypo, no?

Nope IMHO....
That is reduction in pattern not pigment......
We call these Reduced Black Thayeri not hypomelanistics.....
Are these Hypomelanistic?

First two pics courtesy of Michelle Rogers.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>I've wondered about that...to me, if it's reproducable, then I'd call it hypomelanstic (as a color morph). Otherwise it's just a light colored animal.
>>
>>Also hypo means less, not a absence. The term amelanstic is more correct than hypomelanstic to describe an animal with an absolute lack of black pigiment. I view referring to amels as hypo's to be linguistically incorrect (or at the very least sloppy) as it does not sufficiently distinguish the animal in question.

To be truly amelanistic the black pigment must be replaced with the absence of color (white).....But the white can turn to yellow with age as we see with many amel tricolors.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yes I thought this too, but I also think the Floridana that folks are calling hypo are merely reduced black PATTERN rather than a reduction in pigment.....The black they do have is BLACK....the pigment is not reduced the pattern is......

I have thayeri with hardly any black on them at all, but I know they are not hypos......the black they do have is black just as the Applegate Special Pyros.....reduced pattern not reduced pigment......

Are other brownish colored getula (californiae & holbrooki) hypomelanistic?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

If that is your definition of an Albino, the absence of black and replacement with white.... then how is a lavender T FL King actually an albino? I have at least 20 Lavenders het for this and that and none of them have any white even as day-old hatchlings. And I was going off what the other two posters said when they said "hypomelanistic means severe reduction in black pigment" which the snake that I mentioned displays. Just because we do not call it a Hypo doesn't mean that it isn't. Names that people call things are not always the most accurate... An example is the hypo in hognose that is actually a T Albino, but people called it a hypo for so long that that is the accepted name.

>>If that is your definition of an Albino, the absence of black and replacement with white.... then how is a lavender T FL King actually an albino? I have at least 20 Lavenders het for this and that and none of them have any white even as day-old hatchlings. And I was going off what the other two posters said when they said "hypomelanistic means severe reduction in black pigment" which the snake that I mentioned displays. Just because we do not call it a Hypo doesn't mean that it isn't. Names that people call things are not always the most accurate... An example is the hypo in hognose that is actually a T Albino, but people called it a hypo for so long that that is the accepted name.

Why are we even using the "LOOSE" term albino anyway?......We should use amelanistic.....And a lavender is a severe hypomelanism not amelanistic at all......
And hypomelanism mean reduced black pigment....Not severe reduction in.......The prefix means reduced just as the prefix hyper means exaggerated.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

They have reduced dark coloration, which gives them a cleaner look, but the black they have is still black.

>>They have reduced dark coloration, which gives them a cleaner look, but the black they have is still black.

And that is why there is such a thing as a visual sunglow (hybino).........
And the hybino lampropeltis is soooo hard to detect........how can you have reduced black and the absence of black at the same time????????

Because a hypo corn is not a true hypo in my opinion....It has reduced pattern.....and the amel reduced black pattern phenotypes are merely reduced 'black' patterned amelanistics......

Are these hypoerythristic thayeri?
They have reduced red....

Are pin banded alterna phase alterna anery? Nope just reduced pattern and not reduced pigment.......Although I know there are anery alterna now.....LO

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yes you see no black, you see more of a Brown-lavender... but thats as a result of hypomelanism.

If you comparing PB to the orginal Hypo then you'll see the 1st hypos DO express dark pigments that are not brown... they are DEEP-DARK-BLACK... I've always said these are not "hypos" by genetics... how can it be hypo if its black pigment is still black... i think that gene has more to do with the hyper-expression of the background color (but it's just a theory)...

Way i see it...

HYPO I: Reduction of black pigment... black still there, but not expressed as vividly as in a wild type. (Reduce the Amount of black)

Hypo II (Peanut Butter): Reduction of the degree of black... so the dark pigment is expressed as it would be in a wild type BUT the color it'self is reduced to a lavender-brown.

This animal is a "hypo"

here's its mom as a yearling... same type of "hypo"

How can a hypo have red eyes? All of my PBs have red eyes... If lavender is severe hypomelanism and a lavender FL King is a T then how can a PB not also be a T as it is at least expressing severe hypomelanism and also has ruby red eyes just as T Albinos do. Looking at the second picture that I posted of a PB, how is that a hypo and not a T ??? NO trace of black and ruby red eyes just like what we call a lavender

for some reason none of the Positive signs showed up in my post. All Ts should be followed with a Positive

Yes hypos can have ruby red eyes... All my PBs have ruby eyes as well, it's a genetic marker.

My White-face pair have ruby eyes as well and they are neither hypo nor albino

Look at the extreme hypo hondurans even some not so extremes have ruby eyes... some of the ghosts as well. Hypo Cali Kings as well (i'm pretty sure there's a hypo in cali kings that'll prove to be the same gene as the PB-gene)

The black/dark is reduced... the wild type eye color is dark/black sooo it's just the reduction of the dark pigment that gives you the ruby red. This is another reason i don't think the 1st hypos are really hypos there eyes are dark!

Also, John is correct Lavender is a form of Hypomelanistic not Amelanistic (terms just been around too long to make a solid change)... PB is a T-positive... but it's not Amel or Albino... it's hypo, just like Ultra corns (hypo).

So you are saying that a PB is a T Pos Hypo? haha now im confused. Oh well I guess it doesn't matter what it truly is as its just a name we call them. And I hope I didn't frustrate anyone I was just trying to figure it out as I was thinking about all the stuff Zenny and Rainer posted the other day and how all those breedings ended up as they did. thanks for the info John and the clarification Zenny

Well T-positive can't be an Amelanistic... Amelanistic indicated NO black/dark pigments

"Lavenders" and hypos are both T-Positive

~Z

Hypo Cali Kings as well (i'm pretty sure there's a hypo in cali kings that'll prove to be the same gene as the PB-gene)

What makes you say or think this?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I don't appreciate what your insinuating Zenny and i really don't care. But this being a public forum and you have a big mouth that needs to be shut.

The peanut butters came from the Love stock and i got them from Steve Strasser. Do you want me to post the whole history? Do i need to call the right people to drag this on?

No- the peanut butters did not come from calif kings and were not hybridized.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

1st of all i did not say PB had cali king in them... i said "I'M PRETTY SURE THERE'S A HYPO IN CALI KINGS THAT'LL PROVE TO BE THE SAME GENE AS THE PB-GENE"

You know just like how Amel Corns and Amel Cali kings have the SAME amel gene... Yea i have a big mouth but most of what i've said about the PB-Jelly YOU said was foolishness now you regurgitate it! ... dude u are funny.

just foolish...

1st of all i did not say PB had cali king in them... i said "I'M PRETTY SURE THERE'S A HYPO IN CALI KINGS THAT'LL PROVE TO BE THE SAME GENE AS THE PB-GENE"

okay I see you are backpeddling and i know why. But others don't!

Just a recap. You said the above and then you said "somtimes it is best to keep your mouth shut" That is insinuating, and we all know who you are referring to even though you don't bring up my name. Just like you did in the last thread when you mentioned certain people should not be selling these snakes without further test breeding. But i didn't say anything that time. Your self-indulgence in yourself amazes me with your speculations and twisting truths with lies.

..and now that you realize what you said cannot be backed up you change the setting and back out- thats fine.

i am just making sure you don't go to far. It been peaceful here without ya for a while at least. Your interest and willingness to research Florida king gentics is what made you interesting and that is why i initially fed your interests. Now i wish you would take a equal interest in social behavior by growing up! ..If for no other reason to stop clogging up this forum and spare others to read this dribble.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

you dummy! it had nothing to do with freak'n PBs, FLORIDANA OR YOU! it had to do with a GENE IN CALI KINGS....

GET OVER YOURSELF!

I said it's best to keep you mouth shut cuz it has not been proven... listen dude i think we just need to go back to you not responding to my post... i was happy not dealing with your ignorance!

accept YOU jumped the gun and YOU WERE WRONG and leave it at that!

First of all I am no dummy. But you are hoping OTHER people will buy into your lines by seeming more accomplished. It becomes obvious that you are coloring the situation to fit your own agenda. As in this case by anyone not following the proper order of this thread. All i can hope for is that they have a greater penchant for the truth v.s. the backpeddling you are doing here.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

~ZF

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Look I'm kinda new here and maybe I should just keep out but... I have to admit that it did sound like the implication was that there was a gene somehow borrowed from the Cal King to make the Peanut Butters. I just recently invested some money in some of these snakes and just from reading this thread I thought for a second...."Oh crap have I been ripped off?" So I think we all need to be clear when we post and not hint at things because people can get the wrong Ideas. Especially when we can not see or hear the emotion behind the words and things can get misunderstood. I'm just sayin...
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

I apologize if that's the impression you got, but again that was not the message in the content... maybe we in the hobby spend too much time trying to disprove something so that's the initial impression some will get.

Here's the way i see it... i keep, breed and SELL "Peanut Butters" , "Jellies" , Amelanistic T- etc... i make a lil "fun money" doing it... why would i imply such a thing? it would damage the market on animals i plan on breeding this season...

No one here has seen me state something as fact that i can't back up with tangible proof... hopefully you being new here, you can learn that about me as well.

For those who read the post and were confused my apologies.... i requested permission to say the following... My buddy bred a "hypo" Cali King to an Amelanistic Cali king and got morphs... not hets, visual morphs! (just like the Ultra X Amel & PB x Amel = Intermediate Morph, not hets).I have yet to see them as he does not have a digi-camera and does not "do the internet"... THAT was the message there MAYBE GENE IN CALI KINGS THAT IS THE SAME GENE AS THE PB-GENE. I guess i should have said the same gene as the Ultra-gene in Corns?

~ZF

Just so you know Zeny ,

i saved your threats you made before the mods erased.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Let er rip Rainer!

Some hypos, like Hypomelanistic Corns (the original Hypo), are hypo by reduced black pigmentation. That is, the black is still black, there is just less of it, resulting in a cleaner looking snake. Same thing with hypo boas.

>>Some hypos, like Hypomelanistic Corns (the original Hypo), are hypo by reduced black pigmentation. That is, the black is still black, there is just less of it, resulting in a cleaner looking snake. Same thing with hypo boas.

You are right.....And I don't think they should be hypo.....It is a line bred trait to reduce the black pattern.....That is why the hypo boa gene acts like it is co dominant.......
Same goes for hypo cornsnakes....how else could there be a sunglow...Reduced black patterned amelenistics are all they are...

If they are truly hypo then I have hypo thayeri and anery thayeri....Reduced pattern is a line bred trait....and it acts co dominant...
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Some hypos, like Hypomelanistic Corns (the original Hypo), are hypo by reduced black pigmentation. That is, the black is still black, there is just less of it, resulting in a cleaner looking snake. Same thing with hypo boas.

I'd urge everyone to resist calling snakes hypos if "the black is still black" and there's merely pattern reduction. That's a use that defies the definition, imho, and more importantly confuses everyone because most of the pattern-reduction morphs are NOT recessives but the result of lots of linebreeding.

The reduced pattern "applegate special" arizona mountain kings are a good example (photo). At first glance they might seem to be amels or hypos. But close examination shows the narrow bands that remain (where they remain--many are entirely absent) are comprised of black scales, or partial black scales. More to the point, look at the head, which is a giveaway: clearly black, clearly not hypo.

that's my two cents.

an example of an "applegate special" pyro, referred to in the post above.