Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wondering if it is common for Books to double clutch? Is it fairly regular or occasional. I know some snakes like Pueblans will double clutch frequently and even triple clutch sometimes. But I only bred a pair of Brooks once years ago and then I had to sell everything due to divorce.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

>>Just wondering if it is common for Books to double clutch? Is it fairly regular or occasional. I know some snakes like Pueblans will double clutch frequently and even triple clutch sometimes. But I only bred a pair of Brooks once years ago and then I had to sell everything due to divorce.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> Jorge Sierra

I think most all colubrids will double clutch....The key is to keep the calories going into the female after she lays her first clutch.......It isn't the type of snake that does or doesn't...It all has to do with husbandry......

I get rather discouraged when I see an ad on the classifieds where someone is advertising that their female snake is a double clutcher......That just means the seller did it right at least once......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Well, I have had snakes that have double clutched and others that didn't. But it has a lot to do with the individual animals appetite. Yet I have have had Pueblans triple clutch, but never with any other species or subspecies.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

>>Well, I have had snakes that have double clutched and others that didn't. But it has a lot to do with the individual animals appetite. Yet I have have had Pueblans triple clutch, but never with any other species or subspecies.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> Jorge Sierra

Yes it has all to do with appetite, you are correct.....
And appetite comes with appropriate husbandry that allows the snake to thrive and not just live......

The "cookie-cutter" way to keep snakes will result in some snakes not having an appetite......Give the snakes all the necessary options/choices and you will definitely see the differnce......
Just by adding a moist hide and deepening the aspen will yield wonders, but there is a lot more than that......Raise them temps on the hot side and cool the room.....
I'm not saying you don't do all these things....These are just some of the things I have changed and have seen wonders over the last year or more.....The main thing is this....Feed that gal well after she lays and she will double clutch....If she doesn't want to eat....Adjust your set up.....
I hope this helps....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Well, sort of. I still believe some snakes are more prone to double clutch than others. Like I said Pueblens will triple clutch where most others will not no matter how much you feed them. I'm sure that snakes that live in an area where they have short breeding seasons are wired to only lay one clutch. But I guess you are saying that, "Yes" Brooks will double clutch regularly under optimum conditions. Correct?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

>>Well, sort of. I still believe some snakes are more prone to double clutch than others. Like I said Pueblens will triple clutch where most others will not no matter how much you feed them. I'm sure that snakes that live in an area where they have short breeding seasons are wired to only lay one clutch. But I guess you are saying that, "Yes" Brooks will double clutch regularly under optimum conditions. Correct?

Yes they will.....as will all colubrids.....no matter where they are from.....
I've seen Calkings, Nigrita, Cornsnakes & Ratsnakes Triple clutch too...
Pueblans are more notorious for it......But does it have to do with their climate?
I've heard of and seen folks double clutch high elevation (montane) lampropeltis that have pretty short "breeding seasons(?)"
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Ok Cool! I that's good to know. So I will expect double clutches from mine when they get old enough to breed, lol. I am trying to plan which pairing I will do on the second clutches, thanks.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

Due to sperm retention its always a good practice to breed the same pair. Another example I had was a Everglades rat. A HUGE girl, never bred, fed large rats--2 or 3 at a time! She looked obese when I got her. She triple clutched producing 105 eggs of which 101 hatched! That isnt bad production for a single year! Using her fat reserves properly I got her down to a decent weight without having to decrease prey size.Wish they could all be like that.

>>Due to sperm retention its always a good practice to breed the same pair. Another example I had was a Everglades rat. A HUGE girl, never bred, fed large rats--2 or 3 at a time! She looked obese when I got her. She triple clutched producing 105 eggs of which 101 hatched! That isnt bad production for a single year! Using her fat reserves properly I got her down to a decent weight without having to decrease prey size.Wish they could all be like that.

That's a great point Jeff.....A second pairing isn't always necessary, but I always pair them up again just to be sure......

And WOW.....105 eggs from one female in one season......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I think Jeff meant that if he bred that particular female to a different male the second time for whatever reason, don't assume that the previous father's sperm cannot still sire some offspring of the next clutch. Which is quite true. I'm sure that has happened to countless people, and they thought that only the more RECENT father sired 100 percent of the offspring, when in fact, it did not.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>I think Jeff meant that if he bred that particular female to a different male the second time for whatever reason, don't assume that the previous father's sperm cannot still sire some offspring of the next clutch. Which is quite true. I'm sure that has happened to countless people, and they thought that only the more RECENT father sired 100 percent of the offspring, when in fact, it did not.

Yep...I told him good point and shared another....Sorry if it came out wrong.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yeah, we are all on the same page then..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Yeah, we are all on the same page then..LOL!
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
>>-----

And amazingly you all got along too! Im very impressed and each one of you gets a cookie! -
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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OK thanks! I should have known that, but I didn't think about it. I had a Garter snake that retained sperm from the previous year once.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

All and I mean ALL of my brooks double clucth. i have evenn had 20", 21", 22" 1n3 23; Florida kings double clutch with 100% viable eggs.

I also feed my females during the winter and right after they lay (usually 1 day later)I throw in 5 mice and throw the male in right after they finish.

i have only had a handful triple clutch so the pueblins seem to hav them beat in that area. But that may also be due to my husbandry methods since my snakes breed late in the spring (mid to late May) and by the time a third time opportunity comes around it is already to late in the year.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

So how do you feed during winter? Don't you brumate them?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My snake room stays between 40-55F so i keep the heat turned on one side but not very high. I just set it on low. What is interesting the snakes stay on the cold side brumating themselves. They are cold to the touch. But after they eat they move to the warm end to digest and then they move back again to the cold side to conserve enery, brumate or whatever.

This way i am giving the snake choices but it won't work if you have the snakes in a room all winter that stays 72F.

this is what snakes do in nature. they are always seeking for the right temps and humidity to either conserve enery or digest food. Seems these snakes like it colder than we keep them. IF GIVEN THE CHOICE.

IMO forcing them to stay cold for months at a time and then forcing them to stay warm is not optimal for captive conditions.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

That's very interesting, thanks! right now I have them in a room that is being used for storage mostly and I blocked the floor vent so the heater doesn't blow in there and I am allowing the room to fluctuate with the temps outside. It's been steadily cold but we have gotten some warm days. I don't fed them cause it may get cold again any day, in fact it got cold last night after a couple really warm days(Florida).
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

If your room is cold and have a heat strip on one end of the cage, just turn it on low and they can thermoregulate.It really is the perfect way to keep them and you don't need to feed them as they will choose the cold side of the cage anyway. But should you decide to feed a mouse or two to a thin females she will eat and sit on the waerm side to digest. this way your females will have enough fat reserve to cycle and produce eggs.

Snakes, especially Cal kings and eastern getula still eat during winter months. they just come to the surface heat to digest and then seek a cooler temp whn they are done.

It is all about giving the snakes choices on what THEY WANT.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

...eating during the winter. Seems like every single king I've found during January has had a big meal in its stomach.

...eating during the winter. Seems like every single king I've found during January has had a big meal in its stomach.

I think that most kings eat during the winter. Florida kings just come to the surface more than other areas.

Most kings in colder parts of the U.S. just stay fossorial and we don't see them.

I think FR has mentioned the snakes in his study area in AZ come to the surface of crevices when they have a meal in them to soak up some sun.

i know in calif the tunnels under ground make for all kinds of temp gradients even when temps above are much cooler.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>...eating during the winter. Seems like every single king I've found during January has had a big meal in its stomach.
>>
>>I think that most kings eat during the winter. Florida kings just come to the surface more than other areas.
>>
>>Most kings in colder parts of the U.S. just stay fossorial and we don't see them.
>>
>>I think FR has mentioned the snakes in his study area in AZ come to the surface of crevices when they have a meal in them to soak up some sun.
>>
>>i know in calif the tunnels under ground make for all kinds of temp gradients even when temps above are much cooler.

I always thought of it this way Rainer......Temps underground during winter are much warmer than the surface, except when the sun is shining on a surface.....
Mice and lizards go underground too during these cold periods.....The snakes are there with them.....Certainly they eat during winter......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>My snake room stays between 40-55F so i keep the heat turned on one side but not very high. I just set it on low. What is interesting the snakes stay on the cold side brumating themselves. They are cold to the touch. But after they eat they move to the warm end to digest and then they move back again to the cold side to conserve enery, brumate or whatever.
>>
>>This way i am giving the snake choices but it won't work if you have the snakes in a room all winter that stays 72F.
>>

What's the temp on that warm end?

What's the temp on that warm end?

I CAN'T ANSWER THAT FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

it is all about Forcing V.S. Giving choices.

I let the snake tell me what is too hot or to cool. After the snakeS have eaten, I touch the snakes and "SURPRISINGLY" they are still cold to the touch (55-60F) and STILL not sitting ALL THE WAY IN THE BACK on the hotspot. Most of the time the hotspot is hot enough for them to choose the center of the encloser to stay cool while digesting. . Again,,,, this means they are conserving energy and utilizing the most out of every meal by choosing colder temps while full of food. Maybe they move all the way to the warm side for an hour and then move to the middle of the cage. I don't sit and record lenths of time and how long they choose warmer temps to digest.. BUT BRINGING THE TEMPS DOWN TO A CERTAIN DEGREE IS NOT GIVING THEM CHOICES.

What i do is make sure they are not all sitting on the hotspot while digesting. that meand it needs to be adjusted and turned up. So you have to teak it while your snakes tell you what they want. I want them to be hot enough , not just barely hot to digest. i licten to what the snakes are telling me. it is really quite easy.

When i started doing this i was surprised they still choose colder temps than what i thought the WOULD need for digestion,.But I am sure they move back and forth for short periods when they need more heat and move back onto the cold.. And that is the point of giving choices.

for me it is all about common sense and not a set up that i just leave alone for 3-4 months out of the year forcing the snakes into anything. I feed the males when they get thin. I feed thinner females or younger females more often. But every adult gets fed throughout the winter. This does not shut down the cycle process and helps the females to get enough fat reserves to jump start a successful breeding season.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

A good hotspot for snakes is 100F. And as Bluerosy says, they only use it for short periods and/or for special needs. Most of the time they will pick something less.

Digesting food is not the most temp demanding task. Shedding, healing wounds, immune system and certain times during the reproductive process are where high heat is needed.

On our field site, the hottest IBT/s were gravid females full of food.

I like Bluerosys post, who cares what it is as long as its more then they need. Cheers

I like Bluerosys post, who cares what it is as long as its more then they need

You can READ my post? LOL! I thought i was the only one who could decifer my typos, mispelled words and unfinished sentences..

I guess if you can read through all that then yes, you are god!

oops..

...I mean good!

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I guess if you can read through all that then yes, you are god!

oops..

...I mean good!

PRICELESS! Good post Rainer.