Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Times surely have changed.....I remember when there were 30 or so regulars on this forum......This forum used to get more visitors and posts than the main kingsnake forum.......
What a change from when mexicana and the mexicana forum were both fun.....
What the heck happened to everyone?
Has this "prove your lineage" thing really turned that many folks off?

Oh well....I'm glad I have lots of snakes to keep me busy, but for now on I will be posting pics on the main forum.....Moderators should kill this one cause it's been dead for a year or more.......Almost as bad as the Mt. King sub forum.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

"What the heck happened to everyone?
Has this "prove your lineage" thing really turned that many folks off?"

It more or less has for me, and many of the people I talk to, not just on the Mexican Forum, but on the Alterna Forum as well.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

>>"What the heck happened to everyone?
>>Has this "prove your lineage" thing really turned that many folks off?"
>>
>>It more or less has for me, and many of the people I talk to, not just on the Mexican Forum, but on the Alterna Forum as well.

I know exactly what you mean Lance......What happened to this just being something fun?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

John, I think it is just a slow time of the year too. When everyone starts to see breeding, eggs and babies, it will turn on again. I agree it should be fun.....Mike Bodner

>>John, I think it is just a slow time of the year too. When everyone starts to see breeding, eggs and babies, it will turn on again. I agree it should be fun.....Mike Bodner

You may be right Mike......I can't wait to see what everyone hatches out this year.

I think the statement above was made in haste....I will enjoy posting & viewing pics here soon......

And I still think it's fun....Nothing in our hobby beats watching eggs pip from our snakes not knowing what is going to emerge next.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Here's what I get from your post - You can't have any fun unless everyone puts everything out on the forum?

Oh I agree about the forum, it's screwed, but really it can't ever be what it was anyways, not in the current political climate.
It's a shame really, but no way it's all on the BS arguments that go on in here.

There are 1000 different people that don't post here anymore and for 100's of different reasons.

I know at least 100 folks that never have posted here, or over there for that matter.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>Here's what I get from your post - You can't have any fun unless everyone puts everything out on the forum?
>>
>>Oh I agree about the forum, it's screwed, but really it can't ever be what it was anyways, not in the current political climate.
>>It's a shame really, but no way it's all on the BS arguments that go on in here.
>>
>>There are 1000 different people that don't post here anymore and for 100's of different reasons.
>>
>>I know at least 100 folks that never have posted here, or over there for that matter.

You may have got that from my post but that wasn't the point I was really trying to make Joe.....

This forum is not fun anymore because folks that are breeding thayeri that are not hybrids get chastised on this forum and others because they cannot throw out names like Lemke, Applegate, Vermilya or Vivid......That is not fun for them......

Years ago I KNOW I had pure (as it can get in the hobby nowadays) thayeri and still couldn't trace down lineage and such......We had a great time on the forum posting pics and talking about husbandry techniques, but now it seems most of the talk is around "who's stock" is that snake....If one cannot drop a "big" name there are folks on this forum and others that think their snakes are mutts.......Not fun IMHO.....

All this lineage stuff came around during my hiatus....I really don't know what triggered it.....What happened to knowing what a thayeri is...Or at least knowing what a thayeri is in our hobby today.....

I have looked back at the last year of posting and even witness myself doing some of this chastising.....It kinda makes me sick and I will certainly try to refrain from doing it anymore.....

And you are correct Joe....
There are many breeders/keepers that never post on the forums and they are very happy and successful.
And the folks that have stopped posting on the forums have MANY different reasons....As for this forum I think the reason is the "prove it" factor......This is just my opinion.....

BTW...I am still happy with the hobby...Probably happier than I have ever been...At one time I was sort of jaded with the whole routine and the snakes I had, but I think this is all exciting again.....And I'm still happy......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Does anyone think that part of the problem is that a lot of people don't realize there are subforums? I've been coming to kingsnake for 10 years, and I'm not sure at what point I realized it myself. But it seems as if it's the subforums that go dead, not necessarily the main forums. I must admit, I come here daily looking for new posts, thoughs, comments and pics. Sometimes it's days before I see anything new.

Also, I can personally say that I have refrained from posting pics, and sometimes certain questions back when I needed answers, because of some of the treatment I've seen (the whole prove it, and also the "why didn't you do a search", but I still come here hoping to read good conversation. But, I have definitely seen more arguments then good conversation of late, and it does always seem to center around lineage.

You may be right Brian......Most of us were kingsnake users prior to the subforums being started....We were all informed of the new subforums and actually used THIS subforum ALOT when it first started.....for years, actually...

I know Jeff Barringer and the KS crew are working on new layouts and such for kingsnake.com ....I wonder if "better" links or something making new users aware that there are subforums is being considered....

And yep....It seems everyone wants to haggle lineage rather than offering an informative forum....It wasn't always like this....
I kinda miss people posting pics and questions daily....There are alot of folks on this forum that have tons of information/experience to share with everyone.....I wish this forum was used for sharing that information & experience....not to mention, cool pics and ideas.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>I know Jeff Barringer and the KS crew are working on new layouts and such for kingsnake.com ....I wonder if "better" links or something making new users aware that there are subforums is being considered....
>>

Kingsnake is definitely undergoing major change! New site coordinator, new layouts, new alot of stuff I cant really talk about.

BUT What I want to tell everyone is if there is a suggestion to what we can do to make your lives better, I would LOVE to hear it.

And see John, you got a discussion going.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

>>Kingsnake is definitely undergoing major change! New site coordinator, new layouts, new alot of stuff I cant really talk about.
>>
>>BUT What I want to tell everyone is if there is a suggestion to what we can do to make your lives better, I would LOVE to hear it.
>>
>>And see John, you got a discussion going.

Yep Cindy.....It worked.....hehe

And the only thing I can suggest is making the subforums viewable (clickable link) on the Forum Page and not just denoting it with the " " by the Forum title......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

We keep thayeri though John, which were probably of mixed decent to begin with - you had pure ones? I have to laugh these folks that have this awesome snake and suddenly they find out that either a) it wasn't what they thought it was or b) there was no way to trace the snake back to the wild and all the sudden they didn't like their snake anymore, or it isn't fun anymore and it's all Joe's fault because he won't put me on the locality alterna breeder's list.

I have a couple really cool snakes that I have no idea where they came from, but I'm not posting them as pure thayeri. What is a pure thayeri? One from TAMPS? One from Chorro, or one from Aramberri? Or Maybe none of those? BTW a name is a line and not a locality, so who cares if it came from Lemke, or Ruiz, or Vivid, none of those are localities.

The problem I think is people spending too much time on the internet. These are live animals, the owners need to release the stigma attached to line bred snakes or snakes which without traceable origins.

Now if a single person would show some freaking documentation to back something up once in a while, that would be too good. No - we just have some BS story about a Geologist who was cruising through the glass mtns one night and found three alterna in one night. right.... Oh I forgot his name too....

cough cough BS

Fine write the freaking story down so when your friend Todd tells it to a customer and says it was him catching the alterna down by Big Bend Joe won't have to call BS when you change the name and date a little bit to make a few sales.

That's the kind of Bull[bleep] that takes the fun out of it.

I still think these folks don't even like snakes, they just see dollar signs and want to make money. Is that why you are so attracted to abnormal or aberrant specimens? My absolute favorite snake is one I got from Greg because it's a carbon copy of a snake I flipped a couple years ago down there. Only half the lineage traceable, so what???

I know you really like the snakes John, and not in it just for money, but it's really obvious those dealers that are not like you.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>We keep thayeri though John, which were probably of mixed decent to begin with - you had pure ones? I have to laugh these folks that have this awesome snake and suddenly they find out that either a) it wasn't what they thought it was or b) there was no way to trace the snake back to the wild and all the sudden they didn't like their snake anymore, or it isn't fun anymore and it's all Joe's fault because he won't put me on the locality alterna breeder's list.
>>
>>I have a couple really cool snakes that I have no idea where they came from, but I'm not posting them as pure thayeri. What is a pure thayeri? One from TAMPS? One from Chorro, or one from Aramberri? Or Maybe none of those? BTW a name is a line and not a locality, so who cares if it came from Lemke, or Ruiz, or Vivid, none of those are localities.
>>
>>The problem I think is people spending too much time on the internet. These are live animals, the owners need to release the stigma attached to line bred snakes or snakes which without traceable origins.
>>
>>Now if a single person would show some freaking documentation to back something up once in a while, that would be too good. No - we just have some BS story about a Geologist who was cruising through the glass mtns one night and found three alterna in one night. right.... Oh I forgot his name too....
>>
>>cough cough BS
>>
>>Fine write the freaking story down so when your friend Todd tells it to a customer and says it was him catching the alterna down by Big Bend Joe won't have to call BS when you change the name and date a little bit to make a few sales.
>>
>>That's the kind of Bull[bleep] that takes the fun out of it.
>>
>>I still think these folks don't even like snakes, they just see dollar signs and want to make money. Is that why you are so attracted to abnormal or aberrant specimens? My absolute favorite snake is one I got from Greg because it's a carbon copy of a snake I flipped a couple years ago down there. Only half the lineage traceable, so what???
>>
>>I know you really like the snakes John, and not in it just for money, but it's really obvious those dealers that are not like you.

I know what you mean Joe....
I did say "I KNOW I had pure (as it can get in the hobby nowadays) thayeri."
I know we have a hodge-podge of localities that may just be crosses between different subspecies....But not all of the subspecies are recognized as subspecies yet.....They may never be......

The only reason I like aberrant or abnormal specimens is because I was jaded with producing the same thing over and over back in the late 90s and early 00s.....I'm excited about the aberrant Ruthveni, Granite Mex Mex and the one aberrant thayeri I have.....It sure makes it even funner to wonder what will emerge from their eggs.....Sorta like the feeling I get when thayeri eggs hatch but multiply that by 10....LOL
It's not about making money.....I have a VERY GOOD six digit a year job that I can never quit.....hehehehe

And I agree with you all too much about BS stories created to make a dollar....and it DOES take the fun out of it.....
But the way the market is these folks think they have to make up a story of lineage or they cannot sell a snake....It HAS come down to that for some folks imho......Not for me....I just convey what has been told to me...The buyer will have to make his/her own personal judgement.....
Which is why I sure wish we could bring some kingsnakes from Mexico over the border......
Why don't you take care of that problem for us Joe?.....lol

Thanks for the conversation Joe.....

I guess my sole purpose to start this thread was to get something going on this forum....and it kinda worked.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>I know we have a hodge-podge of localities that may just be crosses between different subspecies....But not all of the subspecies are recognized as subspecies yet.....They may never be......

The way conservation genetics is going they will make "species" out of these "subspecies". Just look at getula for proof and an example of "conservation genetics". Who knows, both leonis and thayeri could be elevated to species status. They are lacking samples from some key localities though and no telling how long it will take them to acquire those samples.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Let's go get 'em some!
-----
Todd Hughes

if it was Todd tellin that story you'd be there to verify it, lol!
-----
Todd Hughes

>>if it was Todd tellin that story you'd be there to verify it, lol!
>>-----
>>Todd Hughes

That was an actual example from the alterna forum, obviously a different Todd.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I do think the whole lineage thing has gotten a bit exhaustive. After keeping multiple species for awhile, I decided to focus on thayeri because I loved many things about the species. I spent alot of time tracing provenance as I acquired my collection because reading the forums (and talking to some breeders) gave me the impression that this was most important in keeping thayeri. I have to agree with John, that was the least fun part about keeping thayeri.

I agree with what Joe said above and what Michelle said below. I think if you keep your own notes, and know what you like and want, then you can build your collection any way that suits you. If you dont want hybrids, then only buy from breeders who can provide you with the info that assures you that the animal you are interested in doesn't have any other species (to the best of their knowledge) in its background. In thayeri, we cannot have truly "pure" or locality thayeri simply based upon a couple of factors...the way they were originally collected, and the overall uncertain phylogeny of the species/subspecies.

I think as a group (of breeders), we have to get away from microscopically grilling every hatchling produced that looks a little different. Thayeri already exhibit so much diversity of form. And since we started out with such a relatively small group of founder stock here in the US, we may just now be tapping into genes and forms that we have never seen before. Every aberrancy or new subtle color or pattern variation does not have to come from other species blood mixed in somewhere back in the parents lineage. The sire and dam may simply be harboring genes in a combination that has not been expressed phenotypically before.

Just think of the uproar that amel thayeri would have caused if it came out just a year or so ago instead of when it did. People would have been publicly on here, and privately via phone conversations accusing that breeder of having amel ruthveni or some such hybridization in their background. Again, every new variation does not immediately signal hybridization in thayeri.

I say, be as careful as you personally deem necessary in acquiring your collection. Ask the breeder the questions that are important to you when purchasing. If they can provide you the answers to satisfy your questions, then purchase what you like from them. And don't publicly or privately badmouth anyone else's choices unless it directly impacts you. If you think a snake they have doesn't fit your ideal, then simply don't purchase any offspring from that snake. Simple as that. Just my thoughts.
-----
God Bless Evolution.

>>Just think of the uproar that amel thayeri would have caused if it came out just a year or so ago instead of when it did. People would have been publicly on here, and privately via phone conversations accusing that breeder of having amel ruthveni or some such hybridization in their background. Again, every new variation does not immediately signal hybridization in thayeri.

For me, it's just keep track. Show a little documentation. That's what happened with the locality alterna list, after twelve generations some breeders didn't keep track and all the sudden they could trace their own stock to breeders that in some cases they caught themselves - hahahahaha - now that is funny.
And that was one of the most trust-worthy breeders! Dan Johnson provided an excellent model to follow, but very few are interested in Documentation.

Even if I'm buying a hybrid thayeri I'd just like to see photos of the mother and father and anything else you have. I know you can make this stuff up if you want, but at least I can look at it and make up my own mind.

There are always going to be newbies "accidentally" buying crosses, which will lead to the BS arguments again, but if everyone kept a little better track we'd be able to trace more snakes.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>>Times surely have changed.....I remember when there were 30 or so regulars on this forum......This forum used to get more visitors and posts than the main kingsnake forum.......
What a change from when mexicana and the mexicana forum were both fun.....
What the heck happened to everyone?
Has this "prove your lineage" thing really turned that many folks off?

>>>Oh well....I'm glad I have lots of snakes to keep me busy, but for now on I will be posting pics on the main forum.....Moderators should kill this one cause it's been dead for a year or more.......Almost as bad as the Mt. King sub forum.......

I can't see wanting the moderators to kill this forum,just because something is slow it does't mean get rid of it, I have seen just as much ranting and crap on the main forum as well as others.
Someone can only reply so much to the same ole same ole.
I do think we need to show each other some comradery and not jump at someone who doesn't have lineage or post a hybrid, we choose what we buy and just because someone post a snake that we don't agree with doesn't mean we have to "call them out" a nice snake is a nice snake, keep your notes if you don't want any of them, I do. But fact remains kindness goes a long way, Now if someone ask for an opinion give them one.
I personally got aggravated with post being deleted.
I also have been just to busy to check things out everyday.
I think if we all make a effort it can become fun again.
After all like Mike said breeding season is just around the corner and hatching will begin soon.

-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

I agree with ya Michelle....I really don't want the moderators to kill this subforum....I guess I was just curious to why this place isn't like it used to be.....I know there are LOTS of newbies out there that this subforum could help.....Maybe they don't even know this subforum exists.....LOL

And I can't wait to see what you produce this year as well as everyone......The funnest part of our hobby IS just around the corner......Fingers crossed for fertile eggs.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

LOL, SOME of us had to give up our favorites to expand their horizons a little, sometimes it's good to know what's gonna come out of an egg! As for me, I haven't much to report, haven't purchased new animals in quite a while, and a few things never panned out last year. I'll have a single pair to breed, funkiest pair you guys will see this year I'm betting! And I have 3 2 YO's coming up and a pair of '09's coming along that took quite a bit of tlc to get going. All in all it was a hard year for me, but if your interests vary, as mine do, and you are into field herping and acquiring your own specimens, as I do, then you could see why I don't post too much. I'm always (mostly) there with an attaboy (or girl) when someone posts their cool additions. I agree with Michelle and Mike, it's slow because it's that time of year. With these stoopid cold snaps continuing, I'm reluctant to bring up some animals, my thayeri are down for the count, my alterna are up, go figure, my getula adults are still down, the yearlings are up, my local rats are down, the Mexican bairdi are chowin down and she is gravid already, my gophers are up, my hogs are down, now if that isn't crazy, I don't know what is, the gophers and hogs are from the exact same locality but it is a fact. Plus, I spend an inordinate amount of time on another forum. Because I field herp. I like to do that more when I can, if I could field herp these guys, you can bet I'd be putting up some cool stuff. It'll get better but with the economy and the freaky weather, I don't think it's gonna be the machine you were used to, plus lots of older posters left disgusted over local laws and other dillweed reasons. Hopefully we can capture the attentions of a whole new generation of mexicana heads.

-----
Todd Hughes

Michelle, I want a trio of those like you posted! Gray on rose or rose on gray, knockout color combo!
-----
Todd Hughes

thank u Todd. as soon as they start hatchin i will send u photos and let u pick ur trio. i like that ole school look too.
-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>thank u Todd. as soon as they start hatchin i will send u photos and let u pick ur trio. i like that ole school look too.

I like it too Michelle....Rose and Orange
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

thank u John and i will send u out the photos too. this should be a very interesting yr. i have a few breeders loans that i pray produce viable clutches. should be nice old genetics with lots of variation if all works out. i just dont count the eggs before they hatch. i wish everyone a good breeding season with lots of healthy viable eggs.
-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>thank u John and i will send u out the photos too. this should be a very interesting yr. i have a few breeders loans that i pray produce viable clutches. should be nice old genetics with lots of variation if all works out. i just dont count the eggs before they hatch. i wish everyone a good breeding season with lots of healthy viable eggs.

Cool....
I'm pretty excited myself about the breeder loans and the stuff I have to breed this year, especially with the Mex Mex and Ruthveni......

Thayeri will always be my passion but the Mex Mex are certainly running a CLOSE second on my favorites list....You know Michelle that I have always liked Mex Mex...even back when no one did....LOL

BTW...I am going to work on a couple new pics of the reduced black thayeri I got from you late last year......
They are around 16 inches already and looking good.....

And....I do look forward to seeing what you produce...I don't know if I will be in the market to add any more thayeri to my collection though....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Cool....
I'm pretty excited myself about the breeder loans and the stuff I have to breed this year, especially with the Mex Mex and Ruthveni......

Thayeri will always be my passion but the Mex Mex are certainly running a CLOSE second on my favorites list....You know Michelle that I have always liked Mex Mex...even back when no one did....LOL

BTW...I am going to work on a couple new pics of the reduced black thayeri I got from you late last year......
They are around 16 inches already and looking good.....

And....I do look forward to seeing what you produce...I don't know if I will be in the market to add any more thayeri to my collection though....
-----
lol...yep I do remeber you have always been very passionate about mex mex. I can't wait to see how you mex mex projects pan out should be some very nice animals hatch out at your place this season.
Looking forward to seeing pic's of the reduced pair and I am glad you are so pleased with them.
lol...I am always not in the market for thayeri then that one I can't resist pops out and I can't do without it....lol
But pics are always fun to look at.
Good luck John and I am looking forward to seeing what you produce this season.
-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Sounds like YOU are having fun Todd......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! Gonna get me some of that fun!

-----
Todd Hughes

I guess we each have our individual motivations for posting, not posting, keeping, breeding...

Some people post more in one day than I do in a year. I like talking shop, but it must be a thread that interests me (unless I'm really bored). After 10 years of posting on these forums I suppose I'm getting tired of the same old BS.

As for the lineage thing, like the locality thing, its not for everyone. I prefer to know as much history as I can about what I buy. But its a personal thing, I don't judge people for having different motivations than me. As long as you tell the truth about what you sell, its all good. In the end all we know is who we got our snakes from and what they told us.

Greg

10 Different posters/users in one thread!!!!!!!

I guess there was some sort of stimulus in the original post.....

But...again....lineage played the main factor and was the major topic that could not be avoided in the original post...even I am guilty.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>But...again....lineage played the main factor and was the major topic that could not be avoided in the original post...even I am guilty.....LOL

Have you seen the new "orange phase Durango Mtn Kings"? lol
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>>>But...again....lineage played the main factor and was the major topic that could not be avoided in the original post...even I am guilty.....LOL
>>
>>Have you seen the new "orange phase Durango Mtn Kings"? lol

LOL....I saw that ad on KS classifieds too and laughed......
You and I know better Joe....But there are folks out there that don't....That is a case of the seller not even knowing what they have and trying to pass it off as a "rare" orange phase Durango Mt. King......
I even saved the photo for fun......hehe
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>I even saved the photo for fun......hehe

Yeah, see that is how it starts. The guy that bought it will show up here and post his photo. Then someone here says ... nope..... instant BS prove your lineage argument, and who is to blame? Do we just let it slide? Not me... I'll be the first to tell him he got DUPED.... I have no problem telling them what I think
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>>>I even saved the photo for fun......hehe
>>
>>Yeah, see that is how it starts. The guy that bought it will show up here and post his photo. Then someone here says ... nope..... instant BS prove your lineage argument, and who is to blame? Do we just let it slide? Not me... I'll be the first to tell him he got DUPED.... I have no problem telling them what I think

I know what you mean Joe...I have even emailed folks from the classifieds letting them know they are advertising crosses and hybrids as something they are not...pure.....

But I always get a feeling like....Who am I do police this?
Then I feel like I have to continue being the one who has to call someone out....Hell I called out Aubrey last year on her Greeri/Thayeri crosses....But I thought she had to know....
I even had to get in an argument concerning an aberrant/striped looking thayeri that was produced last year.....It resembeled the aberrant ruthveni gene, but I still don't know if it was pure thayeri or not....With all of the line breeding taking place, hidden genes are found...That is why I am soooo surprised an amel thayeri hasn't been produced since that questionable one back in 1993 in Austin...Coincidentally it was produced just 6 years after the amel Ruthveni clutch was produced in 1987. Just enough time to produce hets, raise them up and produce an amel thayeri cross.....Just my opinion, but the guy may not have even known what he had.....And he thought it was pure thayeri....

You should see some of the emails a few of us pass around concerning "weird" looking mexicana.....I will continue to do my background checks and provide lineage information as it is provided to me.....I would like to think I can tell if a snake is a cross or not......

What do you think this is Joe?

-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I missed the add one of you send it to me,
-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>I missed the add one of you send it to me,

I just sent you an email with the picture of the ad we were talking about......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

np
-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>What do you think this is Joe?

I would want to know as much as I can before making a guess based on a crappy photo.

John it gets much worse, there are circumstances when you have a live snake in your hand, with a valid locality, and you still can't say with authority what it is.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>I would want to know as much as I can before making a guess based on a crappy photo.
>>
>>John it gets much worse, there are circumstances when you have a live snake in your hand, with a valid locality, and you still can't say with authority what it is.

That is a picture of an Amel Ruthveni crossed with a L. m. mexicana.....It amazingly looks similar to a thayeri.....
Just a little, tiny bit of evidence that perhaps there IS geneflow from south to north in Mexico....And that there just may be a grandfather kingsnake species....Ruthveni....

And I know what you mean by judging a snake on looks alone....It certainly is difficult/almost impossible unless you collected it yourself...With Mexicana we don't have that luxury.....We have what we have and a bunch of stories to try and back it up.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Just a little, tiny bit of evidence that perhaps there IS geneflow from south to north in Mexico

I don't think there is any question, but really what it is, is north and south migrations and die offs. We have populations which thrive, expand, connect with others, separate, evolve, reconnect, die off, expand, etc ad naseum. Obviously not limited to north / south, but it's easy to link these species and follow the migration patterns. Throw in geography and it easily explains what is going with thayeri, and even the evolution of blairi / alterna (which IMO are not safe from "conservation genetics".

I think the ruthie theory (or common ancestor) is likely.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>I don't think there is any question, but really what it is, is north and south migrations and die offs. We have populations which thrive, expand, connect with others, separate, evolve, reconnect, die off, expand, etc ad naseum. Obviously not limited to north / south, but it's easy to link these species and follow the migration patterns. Throw in geography and it easily explains what is going with thayeri, and even the evolution of blairi / alterna (which IMO are not safe from "conservation genetics".
>>
>>I think the ruthie theory (or common ancestor) is likely.

Cool...Even great info, theories and fact came out of this thread....

I'm glad we have some similar views Joe....One of these days we'll finally get to meet....LOL
I enjoyed your post a while back depicting how geneflow migrates through the valleys and is isolated by the higher elevations (peaks)......If you overlay a range map over a topographical map IT DOES make tons of sense....

As for L. alterna....I always thought the blairs phase was the MSP of alterna and the alterna phase the leonis......Very similar snakes in other ways as well.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

and I think that if you care about an animal, you'd be thankful for knowledgeable people to tell you what they think of said animal, and not take it the wrong way. Most people want to protect what they love, but some people will see it as bashing. Joe, that presentation you did for us down here really got me to thinking about listening and taking in first hand experience before opening my mouth and claiming to know anything. Some day soon I hope to get down there myself and poke around and photograph some of these things for myself. Put some shots up of that presentation when you have a few minutes, I'd like to see some again, gorgeous habitat and true to life animals.
-----
Todd Hughes

Okay Joe, No fair I need my email presentation!
-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

I would love to see the presentation too Joe. Or maybe Michelle could forward it to me.
-----
God Bless Evolution.

you're famous, son, just face it!
-----
Todd Hughes

Todd u could have video taped it for me...lol
-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Michelle, that was about 5 years ago, or maybe more, lol. It was a great power point display, he went to a lot of effort, which I greatly appreciated. I don't even own a video camera!
-----
Todd Hughes

lol, wait'll you see what else comes out this year, then the forums are gonna be hoppin' again!
-----
Todd Hughes

Having read all these posts re-affirms that I do not want to be the person that finds the first albino alterna in the wild. there will be an endless stream of stuf that goes with that one. LOL

All I know for sure is I have a bunch of mouths that want to be fed on a regular basis, cleaned as needed and hopefully happy enough to present me with some ffspring that will be fun to work with this year.

Past that all I have is what trusted friends past and present have told me. Which is enough for me. Persoanlly I have never collected a single thayeri in the wild. I d id see a road kill, but that doesn't count. LOL

I also have never collected a single "coastal" rosy boa or common corn even though I have tried. Heck Randy Limburg collected 5 off the same hill side following behind me, but I did not get even one. But I keep and enjoy a lot of corns and rosies . LOL

Cherryville Farms