Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I watched a good portion of this show yesterday! What a bunch of over-sensationalized CRAP! I don't think they could shoot anymore "worm's eye views" or "snakes in the foreground" to make the people in the backgroung look smaller! I also never realized that these snakes were such a road hazard? Has there ever been a accident caused by a Burmese Python on the road? Oh, and where was PETA when they obviously staged a baby Burmese being constricted by a Florida King? Or when the raccoon was having his way w/one? I've NEVER owned a Burmese, Retic or African Rock or plan to, but enough is enough! This was an obvious attempt to scare the public and play on their ignorance! Shame on you PBS! I'm very dissapointed w/you!!!!

As I am pretty sure PBS doesn't read Kingsnake forums... I suggest to everybody who has seen the show in question, to write to PBS (I am sure there are contact methods listed on their website) and in a professional manner, (and with as much backup reference links/names/documents you can round up) describe every aspect of the show which is inaccurate, wrong, etc... Question the authenticity of the show etc...and why PBS and other stations are not broadcasting shows about the impact on Americans if the large snakes are put on the Lacey Act....that the giant snake problem is a state issue, not a country wide issue etc.

It certainly wouldn't hurt if everybody emails all the major TV/Radio stations and protest the broadcasting of such one sided and inaccurate programs. Again sticking with a professional manner with as much legit resources to back up what you are saying.

Presenting counter arguments, like the damage to local wildlife by feral cats, dogs, inconsiderate and cruel humans and really, the fatality of native wildlife by cars running them over by the millions each year across the country, including rare species of animals. (only reason they are not as many, as more common animals, is because they are rare...). Not to mention the destruction of habitat causes more extinctions and endangering of species than any invasive species.
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PHLdyPayne

Having watched this entire documentary, as well as the other recent (and TRULY over-sensationalized) documentaries, I have to say that PBS deserves praise for being the first to present a somewhat balanced view of the problem. Unlike the others, PBS:

-Included a short segment on responsible reptile keepers, rather than demonizing us all
-mentioned that feral cats are likely a bigger problem
-Stated Hurricane Andrew, rather than keepers, was likely primarily responsible
-acknowledged that the pythons DO have many natural enemies in the everglades
-Mentioned that that USGS range projections are extremely controversial
-Put the pythons in context with the many, many other invasive plants and animals that have ALREADY drastically altered the glades.

It wasn't perfect, but this documentary stands head and shoulders above the others! There is a whole thread about it on the "Herp Law and CITES" forum, and most folks were just as happy as I am with it. Kudos to PBS.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad,

To be fair, I did state, I watched a good portion of it! I caught the later half! That being said, the part I did see, was ridiculous! Those other shows, I agree were worse, but I expected much more from PBS! How'd ya like the "nit wit" looking for Burmese in the sewers of NYC? What a joke!

Umm-that "NY sewer guy" was in the NatGeo documentaery "Monsterquest" episode, not PBS....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

That's what I meant by "Those other shows"!

I think that guy in NYC has about as much chance to find Burmese pythons in the sewers of New York City as I do up here in Canada. Only place I see Burmese pythons here, are at reptile shows, the local reptile zoo and people's houses (well, actually I haven't seen any in people's houses..as its against the by-laws to keep them within the city...unless they had it long enough to have had a chance to get it grandfathered when the new exotics by-law came into effect 8 years ago).

I did find a dead red ear slider though...in the wild near where I live...not sure exactly how it died...if it just dumped in the middle of winter or too early in the spring for it to survive the next cold snap..but either way, it was dead and partially eaten (by scavengers from the look of it). Definitely wish I knew who had dumped that turtle, even if it didn't pose a threat up here...no way to treat a living creature...makes me wish I could dump the person responsible somewhere out in the middle of the tundra up north. Feed the starving polar bears.
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PHLdyPayne

PBS rarely lets me down with their scientific accuracy in their Nature or NOVA programs, and this was no exception. That video was doing what it should -- fairly and accurately highlighting a SAD state of affairs in southern Florida. ANY invasives due to human action is shameful, and in several of the cases involved, it was due specifically to the pet trade. 400 documented established alien species in southern Florida. 400!!! I'm certain that a great many of that total number can link their origins back to the live animal trade.

Incredible biodiversity losses can and will be sustained due to these follies. The amphibian chytrid fungus came from invasive African-clawed frogs being released where they shouldn't as far back as the 1930s, and we're just, in the last 12 years, starting to see its grand devastating effects. Who knows what pathologies we could see in the future from the Burms, Chameleons, Varanids, Tegus, and other exotics established in the U.S.

The unfortunate thing is that, ultimately, none of this would have ever happened had the pythons been there in the first place -- in the hands of irresponsible breeders or overly casual pet owners. Ultimately, the pet trade is responsible for their and hundreds of other exotic species establishments in South Florida. As the PBS video shows, dealers and breeders should have never left exotics alone in a reptile breeding warehouse during a hurricane. A no brainer. They should have been trucked out to a safer temporary location. Otherwise, of course, escapes would happen.

What's even scarier than just the Burmese Pythons are the certain possibilities of endangered fauna like American Crocs being wiped out by Nile Monitors...who again, wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the irresponsible side of the pet trade.

If you place great trust and enormous ecological responsibility on the shoulders of irresponsible people with unproven results, you get what you asked for. Pythons and other exotics should be regulated. (Note, I did not say "banned"...but certainly more regulated.)

It is something that the pet industry should have foreseen and self-regulated...but when you don't regulate yourself, you're left with the regulations that others decide...aka, the government proposing bans.

If you want to be angry and annoyed at anyone, it should be at the reckless dealers and breeders who have released invasives (like the Phelsuma shown in the video) so that they could harvest them later. Find out who they are and write them letters. Who knows if replacement will happen if these lizards spread wider? Day Geckos, in many ways, are the ecological equivalents of Anoles. Is it possible that replacement could occur to some of our native Anole populations? Certainly. And that's just one single example.

Also, I don't think the video was suggesting that automobile accidents have occurred, but was suggesting that it seems an inevitable event. Could a 200-lb 15-foot snake stretched out across a highway cause a problem? Yes, and ONE injury or death due to this human-caused invasive would be too many.

I hope the pet trade learns from their mistakes (because, like it or not, the buck ultimately stops there), and I hope everyone here watches this video honestly and objectively. I further hope that all people will be inspired to do something about stopping the spread of exotics and invasives.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1411970145/

DR
Suboc.com

First I nor anyone I know condones releasing non-native Flora or Fauna into the wilds of any place, especially my home state Florida. That being said there's a blissful ignorance that exists in the media and how the story is told. Why is it that all non-native species will have a huge negative impact on the Florida environment..? Sure there's degrees but not all are going to cause major change considering reptiles are seldom a pest species. Most reptiles even the smallest ones are top tier predator's who usually don't reach the numbers to be considered pest. But the most important fact is never discussed, the fact that South Florida and Florida as a whole is not conducive to reptiles from equatorial tropical regions. The place around the world where most reptiles come from and fortunately Southern Florida is to far north and that has a huge impact on reptile viability. Will some exist..? Yes but barely and will they cause the huge amount of damage all the doom and gloom crowd says will happen...I doubt it. In the end all the whoop ala has little to do with protecting the Flora and Fauna of South Florida but has more to do with maintaining a power base and the benefits that follow. Sorry for being so long but enough is enough. Andrew

>>Why is it that all non-native species will have a huge negative impact on the Florida environment..?

They don't always, but it's often not known what will happen until after they are established. The risk is too great. Even if they don't do HUGE damage, as you say, in a world where biodiversity is being hit from all sides, even a little damage is enough, isn't it.

>>Sure there's degrees but not all are going to cause major change considering reptiles are seldom a pest species.

Okay. Nile Monitors and South Florida. Burmese Pythons and South Florida. Madagascan geckos and South Florida. Do you have any idea how long those other continents and their representative biota have been separated from ours? MILLIONS of years. There were Varanids and Pythonids on their respective continents long before there were even Australopithecines, much less Homo sapiens.

What happens when you have a cosmopolitan collection of animals in one cage? Essentially, a foreign disease party where pathogens can shimmy from species to species unmolested in a body with a naive immune system. Now run that same experiment in a locale with hundreds of its own native species and you have a recipe for mass macro-regional disaster.

This is why conservation biologists and SMART zoos are trying to get breeding facilities built in the native regions where the animals live, like the El Valle Amphibian Conservation and Rescue Center in Panama. It's much more effective and WAY less expensive to keep frogs in the country of their origin with trained people who live in that same region. And it's much more risky to ship them to a foreign country to a breeding center where there are usually species from all over the world.

Who would have thought that a tiny ant discovered by EO Wilson just a few decades ago in Mobile, Alabama would turn out to be the highly invasive Fire Ant that has covered most of the Southeast U.S. since then?

Who would have thought that you can walk through many parts of South Florida and only see thousands of Cuban Brown Anoles where there used to be carolinensis everywhere? And they were only introduced 60 years ago.

>>But the most important fact is never discussed, the fact that South Florida and Florida as a whole is not conducive to reptiles from equatorial tropical regions.

Apparently it is not only conducive but nigh on perfect, since Varanids, Burmese Pythons, Chameleons, Phelsuma, Iguanas, Tegus, and other established species are all considered equatorial and tropical.

DR
Suboc.com

As I said Dusty I agree with much of what you said BUT the idea that this area is almost perfect for tropical species is NOT TRUE. They are hanging on here and doing well UNTIL we get that little bit of unusual cold as we did this year. We got to the point of freezing twice and at least 95% of all the nonnative Anoles in my yard were dead by the thousands along with Gecko's, Iguanas, and yes, many Pythons. These species simply can NOT survive inclement weather such as we had. Iguanas in certain parts of DadeBroward used to be so common the could be compared to Anolis but now they are very RARE and seldom seen. Brown Anoles which are cold hardy have just about disappeared from my yard. THE CLIMATE HERE IS NOT ABOUT PERFECT AS YOU HAVE STATED but in fact is marginal at best. It is still only a Florida concern and much is being made over nothing...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>As I said Dusty I agree with much of what you said BUT the idea that this area is almost perfect for tropical species is NOT TRUE. They are hanging on here and doing well UNTIL we get that little bit of unusual cold as we did this year.

The cold is not going to kill them all off. To assume so would be ignoring genetics and evolution. What happens when you kill off all but the most cold-tolerant in a generation? You're left with animals that are genetically primed for the next generation of cold-tolerant animals. Modern farmers use this sort of selection all the time when producing seeds for the next crop. And more cold snaps equals more cold tolerant snakes. And the gene(s) responsible for the cold tolerance soon go to fixation, especially if the population dwindles at first. Do I think that they will spread out from south Florida? No, I'm sure there's a threshold as to how genetically cold tolerant you can breed them. But breeders never select for cold tolerance in captivity (only color patterns), so we have no idea what that is yet until nature shows us, unfortunately. It makes the case all the more urgent to remove them from Florida. The Pythons have been documented since the 90s. That's certainly enough time for them to have endured other cold snaps.

>>It is still only a Florida concern and much is being made over nothing...

Are you talking about the spreading across America paper and subsequent media? If so, I am also skeptical of them migrating that far. The PBS topic, however, is very relevant, and the word needs to get out and often.

>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

Actually you just repeated what I said. I never said it would kill them off just said it decimates the numbers which it does. I've seen Iguana die offs like this before but they come back over time. They HAVE NOT however moved any further north. I was just saying that this habitat is NOT near perfect as they hang on here but never really prosper because of the cold. This is also true of the American Crocodile as here is the northern most part of their range and many of those died here as well. All these tropical species have a toehold here but if we ever had two or three really unusually cold winters back to back it might even extirpate certain species forever. It is however a Florida problem and even here the southern third of the state primarily for most species..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

My definition for near perfect = good enough. Good enough for survival and long-term persistence.

Then I'm in agreement with that too...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Well said Tom. The Salt Water Crocodile example is perfect. They've been in Florida for long, long, long time and yet they haven't taken over the Everglades from the American alligator or caused massive damage to the Everglades environment. Also they haven't moved north and they've been here for long, long, long time. Tom honestly that was a great comparison. Andrew

States like Vermont and Rhode Island are trying to enact laws forbidding reptiles because of the hysteria coming out of Florida. The excuse being there're attempting to nip it before it becomes a problem. Reptiles thriving in the wilds of either state thru the first winter. Ridiculous. Also there's the supposed imminent danger that exists with most reptiles if you believe the media. Like some kind of ticking time bomb waiting to go off at any moment harming anything within reach in some kind animalistic orgy. Ridiculous. You see the BS going on has an effect well beyond the borders of Florida and the hardship it's causing is severe and unwarranted. Sorry again for being so mouthy but I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore.

No one ever said that foreign species weren't in FLA. or good for the environment, but no matter what anybody says, these shows are playing on peoples fears and ignorance! BTW, if people had enough foresight to empty whole warehouses full of animals in preparation of a hurricane, no one would ever die in one! That's why they're natural disasters/tragedies!

>>No one ever said that foreign species weren't in FLA. or good for the environment, but no matter what anybody says, these shows are playing on peoples fears and ignorance!

Educating people about a real situation is not playing on people's fears. The only alarmism I saw was not about creating a hatred of snakes or snake people but about the conbio crisis Florida has on their hands.

>>BTW, if people had enough foresight to empty whole warehouses full of animals in preparation of a hurricane, no one would ever die in one! That's why they're natural disasters/tragedies!

In a modern nation where you have typically several days' warning in advance and in a state where you know that hurricanes happen frequently, a person, especially a business owner, has no excuse to not be prepared for one. Keeping exotics (especially a warehouse-full), as you said, is indeed a great privilege and an INCREDIBLE responsibility, especially if you live somewhere frequented by natural disasters. In my opinion, if someone does not understand the conservation or evolutionary implications of establishing feral exotic populations, then they have no business keeping them, and should not be allowed to do so.

Actually Dusty is right on many points. Sean Heflich and myself are responsible for 90% of the content of that film. I requested that Nigel do the film in the first place as he is a friend of mine and of the Herp Community. All I asked is that the truth be told. He did exactly that. Was the film perfect? NO IT WAS NOT BUT IT'S THE BEST YET. He did not spread the usual propaganda but neither he nor I wanted to portray things in an inaccurate way as so many other films have. We all need to think about what is happening and why. This type of thing must never happen again and it's only the minority that are responsible. We really should thank Nigel for a job well done..Thanks..If you really think about that film you will clearly see he dispelled many lies that have been told over and over again by biased film makers..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Dusty and Tom are right-this was basically an accurate program.

We are not going to gain ANYTHING by denying scientific facts-that's HSUS's and PETA's game! Let's not play it.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Typical of the poor understanding, poorly reserched cookie cutter mentality and philosophy thats become all to common place,

Reading thru your other post , like many you have a horrible and NON factual understanding of the situation , Rather then arguing point by point, I'll just summarize by saying, you (and pretty much everyone I see posting on various forums ) really need to do your / their homework better, instead of spouting off things perceived as being correct based on the misunderstood environmental clichés that have become a part of so many people vocabularies, including many biologist , professors, and reputed "herpetocultural experts" its really very sad.

As for the nature show it did not dispel any rumors and was laced with all the typical misleading elements that have been found in the media and spouted by certain biologist since the burms became a catch phase animal. Just because they weren't presented in an over the top manor does not make their presents any less acceptable. All in all another bland and scientifically wishy washy show, typical TV fair if anyone learned anything, they didn't know anything to start and most likely came away remebering only the "scary" elements.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

You know that was so far over my head I didn't understand what you were saying...LOL.. You always come up with criticyms without offering solutions. Interestingly enough is the fact that you seem to be the ONLY one [in your mind] that really understands the situation. Perhaps you should set Skip Snow, Mike Rochford, Dusty R., myself, and anyone else straight and just give us your view on how to deal with this. Maybe you can just rub that bottle and make a wish and all this including Pythons will just dissapear. While your at it perhaps you can miraculously solve all the poplitical problems while your at it. I know you're busy solving the entire world's problems but perhaps since you like herps maybe you can take time off from the Arab-Israeli conflict and help us..I'll be interested in you enlightening to everyone on how to solve all this and explaining to Dusty why all his info is incorrect. I'm sure being a "self-appointed herp expert" my ideas and conclusions are based on my naivity and lack of intimate knowledge of the subject when compared to someone with your vast experience and success...Nigel who got his start working for David Attenboro could also use some help I'm sure. When he gets back from China you should fly to the U.K. and explain to him the correct way to film a NATURE DOCUMENTARY as well...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

SPELL CHECK!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I also am guilty of poor spelling because I'm technologically retarded and don't know how to do it. Today I'll have Patty show me how to do it. It's terrible being a dinosaur...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Well, when presenting complex arguments to a generally highly-educated audience, I think it really dilutes one's credibility if said post is rife with misspellings and, even worse, poor grammatical constructions and improper word choices (for example, "to" instead of "too" or "fair" instead of "fare".

An isolated mistake is one thing, but when I can point out five or six in just a couple paragraphs, I tend to discount that person's opinion altogether.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Excuse me for not always proofreading, grammatical errors aside the content of the post is what matters,I think you showed more of your groupie side then making any point.

Below is a fine example of how well Brad understands the biological world and his reading comprehension skills. Its a post I made, and Brads response, note how incredibly off target Brad is trying to address my mass extinction comment.Protecting habitat is not a safe guard against mass extinction, the earths greatest die offs have been associated with natural disasters of epic proportion and dramatic climate change. I think it was very clear that this is what I was elluding to, sorry if it went over your head.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the during the next mass extinction that hits the earth, the burms survived but the wood rats and ivory billed wood peckers didn't,

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC

Not ironic at all to an ecologist (a few of whom should be consulted by these politicians and regulators, it would seem ). HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT HABITAT!!!!!!!!!!

Brad Chambers

>>Protecting habitat is not a safe guard against mass extinction, the earths greatest die offs have been associated with natural disasters of epic proportion and dramatic climate change.

And what do natural disasters do? Think about it. Destroy habitat and animals. That's exactly what the bulldozer, oil spills, other pollution, global climate change, disease transmission, and other human-mediated impacts are doing. The 6th mass extinction is only different by the source -- humans.

Thank you Ernie, for once again demonstrating your utter ignorance of the biological sciences. As any high school biology student could tell you, mass extinctions-ESPECIALLY those caused by massive catastrophes such as asteroid impacts or super volcanos-cause extinctions by, guess what- ALTERING OR DESTROYING HABITAT!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

"Protecting habitat is not a safe guard against mass extinction, the earths greatest die offs have been associated with natural disasters of epic proportion and dramatic climate change. I think it was very clear that this is what I was eluding to, sorry if it went over your head. "

Dusty my response to Brad covered that aspect of what your saying as much as I thought was needed for the point I was presenting,

Nice spin Brad but no dice, your words were, Not ironic at all to an ecologist(a few of whom should be consulted by these politicians and regulators, it would seem ). Habitat Habitat etc. etc. etc,

Clearly you are not referring to natural disasters such as asteroid impacts or super volcanos as your attempt to spin doctor your initial response implies, but to man made ones as I pointed out was not applicable to what I was clearly eluding to. Sorry, but again you fall flat.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

>>"Protecting habitat is not a safe guard against mass extinction, the earths greatest die offs have been associated with natural disasters of epic proportion and dramatic climate change. I think it was very clear that this is what I was eluding to, sorry if it went over your head. ">Clearly you are not referring to natural disasters such as asteroid impacts or super volcanos as your attempt to spin doctor your initial response implies, but to man made ones as I pointed out was not applicable to what I was clearly eluding to. Sorry, but again you fall flat.
>>
>>ERNIE EISON
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

>>"Protecting habitat is not a safe guard against mass extinction, the earths greatest die offs have been associated with natural disasters of epic proportion and dramatic climate change. I think it was very clear that this is what I was eluding to, sorry if it went over your head. ">>

>>Clearly you are not referring to natural disasters such as asteroid impacts or super volcanos as your attempt to spin doctor your initial response implies, but to man made ones as I pointed out was not applicable to what I was clearly eluding to. Sorry, but again you fall flat.
>>

Sorry, but on the contrary it is crystal clear that I was referring to ANY kind of habitat disruption-including catastrophic events, since they too cause extinction by destroying habitat. Your inability to grasp that simple point is not my problem.

By the way the word is "alluding" not "eluding".

Ernie, would you like to share with the group here on KS just exactly how much support you are finding for your peculiar anti-science views over on FHF?

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Sorry Brad but you lose again. Had you simply said .... Not ironic at all to an ecologist Habitat Habitat, etc., your augment could possibly be viewed as valid but you choose to qualify your remark with the following (a few of whom should be consulted by these politicians and regulators, it would seem ). This makes it "crystal clear " that you were not referring to ANY kind of habitat disruption but being both specific and off the mark as I kindly pointed out. After you attacked me. You then went into this game, Bad form Brad. At this point I feel no further need to particpate in anymore of your round and round silliness. If you want to talk animals thats fine , if you want to just keep on taking shots, well ..............have at it ,

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Oh no, Ernie, I'm perfectly happy to let folks draw their own conclusions at this point ....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I'll talk animals with you and since you obviously are the only true expert here please advise how to best address all the concerns about introduced exotics. There are many opinions and suppositions but this is a complicated and controversial subject. Your post always are critical but offer no possible solutions. In fact you seem to speak in riddles that make little sense to me at all. I'm sure your response to this post will be that I'm not smart enough to understand what your saying. While it is true I often do not quite catch the gist of your criticisms I'm reasonbly sure it doesn't have much to do with my IQ or lack of. Since I personally know Brad fairly well I've found him to be a very experienced herpetoculturist with a tremendous amount of knowledge about herps many folks aren't aware of the existance of even....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Ernie,

So, let me get this straight. The people who have been trained and researched with not only 4-year degrees in biology, but also an additional 7-9 years for their Master's and PhD, who regularly put forth, publish, and present new information to the world are not only ignorant and uninformed, they are wrong. Whereas Ernie from "the reptile farm" possesses all of the wisdom and knowledge to put them all back on track. Hallelujah! How impressive! What would we do without you? University-level education from a reptile farm! Go figure!

Sorry for the severe aforementioned sarcasm (I really tried to not stoop to that level but failed), but I think it verbalizes what a lot of those professors and biologists think when you make comments such as these. Your comments are typical anti-scientific rhetoric...if you can't trash the science, then trash the scientist.

Tom's right. You make general comments and ad hominem attacks against educated people, whether they are biologists, research professors, etc. without any specific stated reason for attack.

Tell us specifically what has been said by biologist x,y, or z.
Please quote what those people are saying with a URL so that we can verify it, and provide your enlightened alternative hypotheses to the ones presented by those biologists.

That way, we can engage in some actual dialogue here, and not just emotional prattle.

Dusty sarcasm aside, all the questions you posed to me are things that I have answered in full detail many times in the past, if you missed my answers the first , second or third time around, Im sorry but at this time Im really only interested in new angles, the old stuff is played out, if you think of this as a cop out , fair enough if you can present me with an intriguing (original) line of questioning , Im all for it.

I will quote myself by posting a response I a gave to a scientist when he noted with an air of subtlety that I might be a little hard on the scientists at times, a bit to candid,

True I can be, Very critical and cynical towards scientists but, Im only critical of certain scientist when it comes to certain issues, Im that way with everyone, it seems some people think I only bash scientist, my views are based on how things might effect my "Snake breeding Business." I don't understand how science works, my personal favorite, Im occasionally accused of being gasp uneducated, well my goodness. You think Im hard on the scientist ? I haven't been all that sweet to some of the guys or issues involving the pet trade ether. You want a straight answer ask me a question, this scares a lot of people, but Im fine with it.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.