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Does anyone know the locale of the melanistic thayeri founding stock?
If I recall correctly there were three breeders that worked with Melanistics....Lemke, Ruiz and Vaverka (sp?)........
Were all three of these "lines" from a single locale? I believe Lemke and Ruiz's were from the same locale but I don't know what that locale is......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Good question

I'm not sure if they all trace to one locality. Bob Hansen's site says they've been found throughout the range. I know they've been found near Galeana and Dr. Arroyo specifically. I believe Frank Retes claims to have discovered the first melanistic.

I would guess that Bob, Joe, Frank, or Steve Osbourne may know more of the story.

>>Good question
>>
>>I'm not sure if they all trace to one locality. Bob Hansen's site says they've been found throughout the range. I know they've been found near Galeana and Dr. Arroyo specifically. I believe Frank Retes claims to have discovered the first melanistic.
>>
>>I would guess that Bob, Joe, Frank, or Steve Osbourne may know more of the story.

Dangit...I forgot about ole FR finding the first one......lol

And....Frank has bred tons of mexicana (according to him)...Why doesn't anyone claim to have any of his stock? Is it because he claims they cross bred anything and everything from Mexico back then?

And I have viewed Bob Hansen's site many times and never really came across that info....I'll have to go check it out some more.....Thanks Greg.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I saw Frank's stock myself in the late 70's. It was mind blowing. Frank has done everything he claims to have done, and more.

Frank found his melanistic near La Angostura.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>I saw Frank's stock myself in the late 70's. It was mind blowing. Frank has done everything he claims to have done, and more.
>>
>>Frank found his melanistic near La Angostura.

Thanks for that info Joe...
And I have never doubted Frank...I just wonder why no one has his 'stock'......He is truly a pioneer and I have actually changed alot of my husbandry due to him sharing some experiences......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

there was a time when you couldn't give these snakes away. Good thayeri and greeri were selling for TEN dollars each. No kidding.
His stock is well represented, all those guys (the pioneers) did a little trading among themselves, so the stock is here, it just doesn't have his name attached to it.

As another example, I bred and sold hundreds of Juno and 277 Blairs as late as ten years ago. How come you don't see any my stock represented? No doubt it's there too, without my name.

The push to keep tabs on things has NEVER been as great as it is today.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Does anyone breeding F1's ever have one randomly come out? Or are they more locality based? John Cherry may be a good one to ask, he has given good insight before on them I think.

>>Does anyone breeding F1's ever have one randomly come out? Or are they more locality based?

Back in the day it used to happen all the time. There was more than one WC melanistic, and that gene seemed to be prevalent in the other WC's from that area (much like Blond subocs).

Melanistics lost popularity and soon became less common in the hobby.

Every single instance I have personal experience with points to simple recessive, though some report that the gene behaves more like a super gene. That could easily be explained by poly-paternity or stored sperm however, so in my mind I am reluctant to concede that there are two melanistic genes in the hobby, though it is a possibility.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe,

I agree with you about animals not carrying the founders name after they leave our control. Knowing whom I have sold animals to in the past and then seeing them produce offspring that I know are from my bloodlines in pits, thayeri and the like is often amusing. But hey they are their animals now.

I also agree with you that there is still a major question in my mind (as feeble as it is) about there being more than one gene for black in the pure thayeri population.

I am not even sure of it being a standard simple recessive as we have bred several generations blacks to each other over the years and still had about the same random production as from other morphs. You would think that would increase the production of them if it were simple recessive without some type. It is quite possible at least in my mind that certain colors or combination thereof are masking the black and any time that color is present we do not see it. We have run into that in corns in different combination.

Also I can remember 15 years ago not being able to even give away thayeri and blacks were exceptionally hard to get rid of each year. And yes Randy, Frank, Alan and several other guys that I know of collected blacks from several different parts of the range, so they were not just from one locale.

As far as Frank is concerned he is quite the charactor, alot of times he likes to agitate the new folks in the hobby, just to see what they will say and/or do. But he does have a lot of experience and if you understand him, just take with a grain of salt some of the things he says from time to time just for effect. He is a blast to listen to and correspond with from where I come from anyway. LOL.

As far as producing blacks from wild caughts the most verifiable fact I can give you is the F1 laredo line animals we have have on several occasions have produced blacks for us. Each year we get 1 - 5 out of the pairs. The balance seem to be alot of really nice MSP, ground color leonis with very reduced black etc.

One other note I had a good friend that picked up a pair of "black thayeri kings" (as they were marked)from a guy in Orlando several years ago and he produced a clutch of 7 that were all solid black except for a tiny white spot on two of them right at the cloaca. He showed them to me and I swear they looked exactly like pure thayeri. Small head, typical body shape etc. He went back and really questioned the guy he got them from and they ended up being F3 crosses from Mexican blacks and thayeri. He froze the entire lot I understand after that at some point.

Anyway that is my take on it, as usual I stand to be corrected and taught someone new. But until then I will remain dumb and un-informed I guess. It sure makes it difficult when you think you know something and then have to start questioning everything all over again. LOL
Cherryville Farms

Great info John....
Thanks for chiming in......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>And yes Randy, Frank, Alan and several other guys that I know of collected blacks from several different parts of the range, so they were not just from one locale.

Alan who? and What are the other locals where melanistic thayeri have been collected?

Answer those if you can and I'll add something to it.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>>>And yes Randy, Frank, Alan and several other guys that I know of collected blacks from several different parts of the range, so they were not just from one locale.
>>
>>Alan who? and What are the other locals where melanistic thayeri have been collected?
>>
>>Answer those if you can and I'll add something to it.

Kardon?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com