Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am seeing an awful lot of posts recently from what appears to be new hobbyists that are getting a whole lot of various subspecies and species off the get go with no inclination of what they are, how they should be kept, or any basic husbandry skills whatsoever. These folks just seem to be spending money and acquiring multiple animals willy nilly. Not all, but definitely some. This is generally followed up with a post once they discover they have a male and female (regardless of whether we are talking about an anaconda and a hognose) about breeding said snakes together.

When I started keeping snakes, it was a joy and priveledge to successfully keep and maintain ONE snake. Let alone even think about breeding. I am getting the impression these animals are no longer thought of as pets or responsibilities, just "baubles" and "trinkets". Has the ability to get these animals become SO easy it has turned out this way? Is there not even any wonder about the animals themselves, and its just about cheap thrills? Why do I see posts one day from someone asking about basic husbandry issues, then the same poster asking questions about breeding the next? Usually the breeding questions involve two different species!!! Why so much cart before the horse mentality? How do these people expect to follow husbandry guidelines for brumation, breeding, and egglaying/successful hatching when they are struggling to follow basic husbandry issues to keep their animals thriving and alive???

Man, I hate to squash anyones desire to enjoy this hobby, but enough boneheadedness!! PLEASE, stop and think about what you are doing. Dip your toes in the water with one snake and learn all their is about that ONE animal before plunging into multiple animals and breeding efforts. If you are beginner struggling with husbandry and health questions, such questions shouldnt even be on your radar yet. Also, if YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT SPECIES or MORPH you have, these questions shouldnt be on your radar. You and your snakes will thank you for it and you will enjoy the hobby much more thoroughly as you gain experience and knowledge!!!

Once again, not trying to be a bad guy. I do enjoy helping newbies out with questions as even some basic husbandry issues are a bit confusing when starting out. However, dont ask where the gas goes into the tank one day, then ask how to install fuel injection or a nitro booster system on your engine the next!!

When i was a kid we didn't have the internet or even any reptile magazines or herp shows. Those things did not exsit yet. Now people just have to go to their computer and find anything they want in a matter of seconds.

So maybe it not as bad as you may think. I may pick up a certain breed dog next week and not until after i come home i discover it likes to eat carpet and chew holes in the wall. But at least i found out before it is to late.

Anyone ever eaten dog?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

LOL!! Rainier, you are right. When I was a kid those things were non-existent. Still, I could read books and learn how to cage, heat, feed, the snakes I was keeping. I could learn basic husbandry skills prior to the purchase. At least you know the basic care of a dog before acquiring a different breed. The fact it is a rug and wall eater is an anomaly LOL!! The dog still needs fresh water, dog food, and nice walks or yard time. You would probably even know how big the breed gets and its activitiy levels before bringing home. You would probably not go out and buy a half wolf/half husky expecting it to be good with children or trustworthy. I am getting the impression folks are going out and buying a chihuahua, a wolf, and a fox and asking how to breed them together before even figuring out how to maintain each one properly, or any of the basic information associated with the species.

Get off my lawn

"I am getting the impression these animals are no longer thought of as pets or responsibilities, just "baubles" and "trinkets".
Based on? The desire to breed them isn't indicitive of that attitude. The desire to have one of every species under the sun? Yeah that might be.

Lower barriers to entry result in more people getting these animals. If that increases the proportion of boneheads (versus simply the gross amount) is up for debate.

"Is there not even any wonder about the animals themselves, and its just about cheap thrills? Why do I see posts one day from someone asking about basic husbandry issues, then the same poster asking questions about breeding the next?"
Well, TBH, breeding *is* a husbandry issue. Consistently reproducing your animals to some extent vindicates your husbandry. It's how I knew I was doing right with my geckos many years ago

While it's perhaps a bit ambitious to want to jump right to breeding them, at least people are perhaps aiming to high rather than too low?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Sorry Varanid, when something is purchase with no basic idea of what it does, then I wonder about the reason behind the purchase. I see lots of things that look cool, but I dont run out and buy them unless I know what they do, how they work, and can justify adding it to my life/spending money on it. Harleys look cool and I can afford one, however, I dont own a Harley.

Yes, breeding is technically a husbandry issue and yes it is a gauge to determine if your husbandry skills are on target and you are indeed doing things right. However, how long were you keeping geckos before attempting to breed them? Was it the day after you first got them and were still wondering how to set them up properly? Did you run out and buy a leopard gecko, fat-tail gecko, and day gecko one day and was asking if you could breed them together the very next day while still asking questions on how to properly set them up??

Thats my point on my rant. It appears some are ready to dive off the high platform before learning to swim, or even feel knowing how to swim is worth the while and effort.

Hey Kevin,

These are all excellent topics and what it leads me to wonder is, how many breeders actually include care sheets for what they sell?

Speak up my angry brood, tell me... Do you all offer basic husbandry starter advice when you make the sale?

I look at things a bit different with the rescue. To adopt you need to fill out a base application telling me about you. Granted I operate a bit different, but it gives me a base knowledge level. When i see someone who wants to put say a russian tort in a 10 gallon tank, I take that time to say "HEY BUTTHEAD AINT GONNA WORK." Well granted I do it a bit more nicely. But I always send care info via email to prepare folks BEFORE they actually meet the animal.

I remember way back when hubby bought a pair of beardies at a show, the breeder included a care sheet. I know the guy I get my short tail pythons from includes a very detail care booklet at his own expense if you are a first time buyer.

With all my adoptions I include a species specific care sheet, not always something I wrote, but something I snagged with permission from someone with the basics to get started as well as references in both book form or online.

I think this may be the first step we as a community could take into education of the species we sell. Yeah its a pain, but it also ensures you know the people have something to fall back on knowledge wise.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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I believe it is a sign of the times we're living in. They say Knowledge is doubling about every two and a half years!What used to take a trip to the Library and then searching and checking out books, bringing them home and reading thru them to find some specific answer to a question, takes only the time to type G O O G l E. It is also partly due to the economy and people looking anywhere to suppliment their income. They attend a reptile show and see guys with tables full of snakes and they think wow these guys are making a lot of money! [ban].TV is becomeing very popular on the net how many kids are looking at those vids and getting the bug to breed? It may not be a bad thing I'm not sure? But with the rate at which breeders produce hundereds of animals somebody needs to buy them, right? I think reptile husbandry and Care is simple enough that if they do buy a reptile and then seek proper care before the animal gets sick then it shouldn't be to difficult for them to do well with it. Depending on the species of course. It could be a sign that the hobby is continuing to grow. Thank GOD that there is plenty of sources available for novice to get good advice.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

Jorge, it just appears to me that the easier it is to get the info, the less new herpers are actually looking at the info. If the degree and ease information is available today were present when I started, my herp life would have been MUCH easier back in the Dark Ages LOL!! The situation at times almost seems disrespectful to the animals in a way. Kind of a "who gives a squat" mentality. Am I over reacting? I just get the impression that some new "herpers" are as genuinely interested in the $30 corn snake they just bought at a herp expo as much as the $30 studded belt they just bought from Hot Topic, or the $30 DS game from Game Stop LOL!! They just dont ask how to make more belts or games, or better yet, how to combine their belt and game!!

Cindy, I have provided caresheets in the past. However, I did not do so this past summer. I have been fortunate that most if not all my direct sales have been with herpers who already had animals and were exanding their collections with morphs I had for sale, or kept other species and wanted to give corns a whirl. When I produced greybands, NO ONE looked at them for the prices I was asking unless specifically interested in alternas LOL!!

Don't get me wrong, caresheets are great. The internet is great. Every herp expo and petshop I go to has books, magazines and caresheets available. I quess my question is "Whats wrong with reading this information prior to making a purchase?" To indicate on these forums that you do not really know what type of snake you actually have, do not understand the basic concepts of keeping the snake healthy, then immediately asking if you can breed them is just...insane AHHHH!!! How can you expect to turn around and breed animals you just acquired when you are not really sure what species you have?? Asking about morphs and genetics regarding your "breeding projects" when you dont even know what the breeding size of the animal you have should be? It just seems a bit ludicous to me at times.

Again I think it is because of the broad reach of the hobby! When we were kids we had a love for snakes and we had to go out of our way to search for any tidbit of info about them. I could only dream about someday owning some of the snakes I have today. But we had a Passion for these animals that was there from early on we did not need to be convinced. As the reptile industry grows it is reaching out to people who might never thought about keeping a snake before. I agree with you don't get me wrong. I am just saying that this is a result of mass producing these animals and the ease and affordability at which they can be aquired. Unfortunately it's like colateral damage. I don't like it either but it is going to happen as the hobby expands.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

"Do you all offer basic husbandry starter advice when you make the sale?"

Definitely, but my last sales have been to experienced buyers and it was older stock. I simply gave some history and the nuances of each snake in order for them (both the snakes and owner) to make the transition to a new home easier.

At shows or anywhere where I'm certain a newbie is getting a snake (doesn't have to be from me) I offer care sheets. Basically anytime someone asks. I sometimes have a "starter" kit w/ cage, aspen, water dish,hide, and a care sheet.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I do the starter kit with local sales of baby balls and they seem to get a kick out of it. I've had some of them meet each other at the pet shop while purchasing feeders - recognize the little boxes and tell me about it later.
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Amy Claiborne

Don't let them take your wasted time. J.T.

I don't agree with the care sheets that are given out any more than a THF book giving husbandry advice or the Dept of Agriculture says you must keep a snake in a certain size cage and provide a fresh water bowl at all times. That does not work for all species.

Usually the advice i give is not followed. So it boils down to a person is going to do what they want to do. Nobody has any control over that.

It is a learning experience and some herpers never learn. One must first be teachable in order to take advice.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I always try to give good tips and advice on the basic care of snake's that I sell. If I know the person is fairly well-seasoned, I don't bother, but I can tell in a heart-beat when they are novices and need some tips on their basic care. After all this is said and done, I always suggest that they get some inexpensive books to read up on the animals they acquired as well.

I hate the thought of me creating an animal, just to have it do poorly, or even worse...die from not being properly taken care of by someone. I explain to people that most snake's care is quite simple and straight forward, and they really only need a few basic things to thrive well in captivity, but that these few basic things are VERY important to keep in mind and apply.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I always wondered how many snakes sold at expos make it through their first year......

BTW......90% of the people I sell snakes to are veteran snake keepers and really don't want me to tell them how to keep kingsnakes....LOL....The other 10% get "my" version of how a kingsnake should be kept........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

LOL!,.....yeah, I can certainly relate very well to all that man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Hi Cindy, please think about this. Care sheets do not teach people how to CARE. It only gives them a false sense of security which leads to the conditions we have today.

Caresheets are a minimum common way to understand something. As in, to follow instructions. These types of instructions are great for model airplane building or putting together a crib, or dollhouse. But they are not so good for a living breathing animals that does more then sit in a box.

To me, living is more then having a heartbeat, its to be alive, not just live.

The first thing should be to teach them, these are animals much like us that do more then sit at one temp and eat a mouse.

I know, but caresheets are a start, but they also appear to be a finish as well. As most will treat their bobbles, the same way, as long as the animal has a heartbeat. As in, to follow instructions.

I am skipping a bunch here, but I may agree with the original poster, maybe not all these folks are suited to keep a "living" bobble or trinket. It may be better to let them buy a snake have it die and be done with it. As opposed to keeping many snakes for many years in a box, alive with no life.

I will skip more and move on farther down the line, these snakes when kept healthy, love to eat, yet we do not feed them, they love to move around, yet we do not let them, they love to choose what they want, and we stop them from that. They even love to love a certain other mate(to pair up) and we prevent that as well. And we do all that for the benefit of the captive. Or shall I say, for the CONTROL of the captive. As I am not sure its of benefit.

OK, maybe we are taking about a different kind of caresheet, how about asking whomever if they are going to support their living snake with a life, and doing whatever it takes to allow that captive to experience "life events".

I know, in captivity we can never give them the life they had in nature, but does that mean we should give them NO LIFE of their own?

In a weird sense(a lot of what I do is considered weird) A reptiles life in nature is life or death. When they are alive they are really alive, the death part, is the end of whatever life they had. There is no guarantee of lenght of life, but they is a guarantee that their life will be under their control.

In captivity, our caresheets seem to be about how to keep them with a heartbeat and no life.

Again, this is only for your thought. I myself have no answers, I will just plot along hoping to get to person at a time to allow their captives reptiles a life. Cheers

P.S. at least if newbies goals is to try and breed them, they must at least support them in a minimum way.

P.P.S.As you have seen here, I challange the caresheet mentallity, to the benefit of some. Also have you seen here, some have followed my that direction and their animals are indeed benefiting greatly.

P.P.P.S. Please understand, this is not an attack on you, its to question the use of caresheets. Or at least, how they are currently used. Also, caresheets are not for the animals, they are for the people keeping the animals. It appears, many/most of those people either do not care to think, or do not have that ability.

FR, you bring good points to bear regarding caresheets. I view them as a "first look" to make go/no go decisions regarding acquisition of a new reptile. Just a tickler to determine if I am willing to make the basic commitment to look further into care. If I feel the caresheet indicates I have "what it takes" to keep a certain animal, I follow up with additional research, buy a book or two on the animal, peruse the internet, etc. to fine tune and learn more indepth techniques. A caresheet may tell you to provide a warm spot of 85 degrees and feed the animal mice, but it may not tell you the various ways you can provide that warmspot safely, signs to increase prey size, or options if what provided wasnt eaten as expected.

But regardless of any of that other stuff, there are only TWO options to Cindy's post, one can try to give some beneficial help(especially to novices), or one does not. In my opinion, why the heck not at least TRY to make sure the animals owner's that the snakes are sold to are at least told some of the basics in the hopes that they can thrive?.

Everyone here already knows that you can't "make" someone do anything they don't want to do themselves, but I think it is a very minimal thing to do if you care AT ALL about the snake's you just produced.

Whoever can tell me I am wrong about this, I think their thought process is simply whacked!, simple as that really.

Now let the thrashing upon me begin for cryin out loud!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I am all for verbal instructions. I always offer all the support I can. Cheers

>> P.P.P.S. Please understand, this is not an attack on you, its to question the use of caresheets. Or at least, how they are currently used. Also, caresheets are not for the animals, they are for the people keeping the animals. It appears, many/most of those people either do not care to think, or do not have that ability.

No worries on that Frank. I know just how to understand ya! Now if I can get you to do a guest chat with me again, I will say I love ya publically.

OK that being said, I am heartened to hear that even tho care sheets may not be something you all work with, you recognize the need to sort through your customers. Yeah if I were adopting you a kingsnake or monitor, you can bet your behind you would not get the care sheet. But the care sheet that I hand out has other resourses as well above and beyond the basic care information, because as we ALL know it takes what 30 seconds now to become an internet expert and create a website. For each of the species I sort out some of the best web references as well with a statement that says "Anyone one can create a website, in our years we have determined that these following websites and books will be of the most help to you as you learn more about your new pet" I have seen those folks pop up on the websites and the breeders I work with have let me know these folks have reached out to them.

I do realize I deal with a different situation. If someone applies to adopt from me and doesnt know hoot about what they want and they refuse to alter their cages to suit our requirements, I merely deny them. I deal with a lower volume of animals as well so arranging the follow ups at 1, 2, 6 and 2 months is FAR easier for me placing say 40 animals through out the year. I am not really in this for a profit either. Our rescue does extensive fundraising to support on going costs such as feeding.

And yes there are people (I think Kevin mentioned this) that put as much value on their reptiles (or even dogs and cats for that matter) as they do their new belt from Hot Topic. I do feel while that is sad, it is not something specific to the reptile community but to our society as a whole. We are a very disposable society. Having taken in dogs and cats in shelters and rescues that I work with because the owner purchased new furniture and the animal no longer matches, I think this spans more than our chunk of the world.

The other issue lies with me is that I deal with SUCH a variety of animals and I personally keep a small variety in my own collection, I am limited in my knowledge base and I utilize those who I have found to be the most helpful in the past. That is where I rely on things like websites and care sheets to get the proper info to adopters. Most everyone here specializes in a niche, but just to list my differences here above the normal ball pythons and RTBs, I also have a dumerils, argentine, cal king, gopher snake, russian torts, golden geckos, leopard geckos and emperors scorpions in rescue. NO WAY I am an expert on everything, despite the fact that my husband thinks I know everything. Thankfully I am also poised in my job to work with the best, and trust me I use that to my advantage.

I will admit, some of the species I deal with I require the potential adopter purchases certain books, reads them and then contacts me. If they cant spend $25.00 bucks on a book, I wont waste my time with them. But again I am going at placing from a different direction.

I am interested to hear from more of you on how you work to educate potential buyers. If you are working a show and get someone who you know is not listening, doesnt care and wont care in two weeks (and I know we can all smell them a MILE away), do you refuse sales? I know I am lucky in that this is not my lively hood to place animals, but I also wonder how that effects those of you who make a living or portion of a living from it.

And oddly enough you were the group on the site I was most apprehensive and now I find myself posting more here than on the forums of stuff I actually keep.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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Cindy, I have been extremely fortunate with the people at shows I have participated in regarding their capabilities and experience. I am fortunate to say I have never had the 10 year old kid with the crumpled up $20 asking if the baby corn I was selling for 15 bucks eats crickets LOL!! Now, I have had a kid that looked to be about 10 years old show up to my table, look at my baby corns, show me the puny baby house snake he just bought and ask me what it eats!! I politely told him I didnt know but should feed on baby mice/pinks and suggested he talk to the person he bought it from. Most of my buyers are either looking for another corn to pair with an existing corn they have, or at times, are other vendors who buy my stuff wholesale because they know they are established feeders, etc.

Up until last year, I did provide a caresheet, but it was regarding what to do with the animal prior to getting home. Basically the sheet stated not to put the snake on the dashboard of the car in the sun, or leave the snake in the car for a few hours while shopping at Walmart or eating lunch out on the way home. I have had a couple of buddys of mine at shows state they were visited a few hours later by a buyer who's snake died on the way home. When questioned, it was inevitably a similar situation of leaving it in the sun, or extremely hot car for several hours. Mind you I only do/did one a show a year in Louisiana, in August. Temps are 98 degrees with a heat index of 105 at times in the summer easy enough!!

I have also "talked" folks out of buying snakes from me a couple of times. Based on their questions, obvious lack of knowledge, or other indicators, I have politely told them to hold off and look around. I always state that they may see something else that interests them. Usually these are the folks walking out with the $4 dollar turtle and container of reptimin turtle food LOL!! Yeah, not good for the baby turtles. However, the turtles are not inclined to strike out and cause fear neglect either. Scared snake keepers are bad snake keepers IMO.

With the caresheets...they're GREAT to start with (providing they don't out and out suck) so I like the idea of giving them to newbies. Problems only arise if they think that caresheet is everything they need and that they can quit learning.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Ok That made me laugh, hahahahahahahaha

>>Ok That made me laugh, hahahahahahahaha

Huh? I figure it's like almost anything else. You learn how to keep and work with animals by doing it. But that doesn't mean reading basic stuff first is wasted. It's like when I fought; you learn to fight by fighting, but a few lessons first and some practice on a heavy bag came in really handy.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

When I sell a reptile I let the buyer know that I am here to answer any questions about caring for that animal. I try to feel them out to see if they have experience with that species and offer advice if needed. I have been asked for advice from some purchasers and have given it freely. When I sell baby ball pythons locally I do provide a care sheet with them as well as my phone number. I've had some call me over and over with 'problems', but that's okay.
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Amy Claiborne

Don't let them take your wasted time. J.T.

I am not a fan of care sheets except for them to be used as a guideline to see if the prospective buyer can provide the basic necessities that the animal may need.

A care sheet does not cover nearly enough information on how to take care of an animal. You don't see disease/parasite/illness treatment in most care sheets. Or what to do if a snake has trouble shedding or regurgitates. There are a lot of aspects of care that care sheets do not cover.

There are, however, many paperback books written on specific reptiles that are popular in the trade. I recommend that prospective buyers get these books. I do provide customer service to people who buy from me (as well as people who don't buy from me).

The problem here is that many new owners don't do their "homework." Nor do they ask vendors basic questions about the animal they bought like "what is it eating?" It seems that captive produced reptiles have become the new "disposable" pet of the last several years.

Tim

I give a fairly detailed caresheet along with some references for some quality books. Believe it or not i even gave a caresheet i printed out to a petco once just cause no one in there knew how to care for any of the 8 species of reptiles they had. I also offer my number in case they have questions and make house calls, but then I dont produce/sell very many snakes a year either. I treat every baby produced as if it was one i was going to keep, cuz if it came down to it id rather keep it and watch it grow then get rid of it. But thats just me. I love all my animals whether they are reptiles dog or wife lol.
Ps dont tell my wife i said that.

Good post Kevin!....

I think about that very same thing all the time. It is absolutely NOTHING like when I started into snakes as a kid in the late 60's and 70's. It is a phenomenon of the times today. All these people see all these flashy patterns and colors and think there is a big magical rainbow of riches to be had. Many have no clue whatsoever about how to care for them, much less what to really do with any offspring if they should happen to hatch some out.

I compare alot of this to "monkey see, monkey do" mentality. Certainly not all folks, but too many people do this as you have also pointed out. I have been seeing this for a long long time now.

Wanting to know and learn things is great, and I whole-heartedly endorse doing this, but if these people would just learn alot more FIRST about the animals they want to get into, both the snake's AND the owner's would be much better off for it.

All to often these people want to simply jump on their computer and ask about why, or how a particular problem occurred with their snake(s), when they could have EASILY prevented any of it with just some simple research FIRST!.

When I was a kid, I had TONS of snake books and would read about them all the time,....now it seems that many newbies only want to "possess" the animal(s), and not go much further beyond that, except to ask........"how to make MORE of them". This is the proverbial "cart before the horse" mentality that I don't agree with at all. My view was always learn, then KEEP learning!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

n/p

Well, these are very different times, you can learn all there is to know about any subject with a mouse and a click.

I guess thats my problem too. I tend to seperate class from the lab.

All these caresheets are theory and in most cases work if applied right. The problem being with living animals, it must be applied.

This is where it gets frustrating. You can do A and B and C, only with living creatures, there is no one answer/result.

Others talk about shows, and what I see all the time is, "I did do this and that, just like the caresheet said" hmmmmmmmmmmm its all about the application isn't it? Cheers

I don't think this is a new problem, or one that is even related only to snakes, we're just seeing more of it because of the ability to post a question on a forum and expect an immediate response... People would still jump in and put the cart before the horse if they couldn't, its just that with internet access and a forum or 20 to post questions on, they can ask questions and (hopefully) learn and not kill multiple snakes while they go through the trial and error process....

This problem of people just breeding and not thinking about what they're doing with dogs, horses, basically any animal they can get their hands on, is that the animals are not the best quality, and in many cases are not cared for the way they should be... The biggest difference is there isn't as much human effort behind putting two horses in a pasture and hoping for a baby....

Humane societies and animal shelters all over the country are suffering because of over breeding and funding cuts... I'm not saying that reputable breeders (of any animal) should stop trying to improve the species they are working with, but the average joe that has done zero research should stop throwing animals together just because babies are so cute...

Ok, I'll step down off my soapbox now and go take care of the mare that was given to me because she was pregnant and her previous owner couldn't afford to feed her anymore cause she was eating too much... Kinda makes you wonder what she expected to happen when her thousand pound animal got pregnant....
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)
0.1 Mountain Horse (Sandy)
0.1 Standardbred/Arabian Horse (Storm)
0.0.1 - foal on the way....

Thanks for verifying I am not crazy Maggie LOL!! In the case of your mare.."and the wheels on the bus go round and round"!!! Good luck!!

No, you're not crazy....

As for my poor mare, when I asked the previous owner what she was bred too I got a "well, I put her in the pasture with 2 different stallions, so I don't know which one's the father... But its either a paint or a quarter horse"... So I'm hoping the three breed cross is healthy enough and put together well enough to at least be a good trail horse....

I had given some thought at one point to breeding my cal kings... But I decided I didn't want the hassle of setting up an incubator and trying to deal with selling the babies... I'm glad I just kept them as pets and gave up the breeding idea.... I'll let the guys that actually know what they're doing do the breeding...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)
0.1 Mountain Horse (Sandy)
0.1 Standardbred/Arabian Horse (Storm)
0.0.1 - foal on the way....

Maggie, Varanid stated it well in his previous post. Successfully breeding and reproducing your animals is a great measure to test your husbandry techniques. Its a next step, not a first step IMO in the hobby. I successfully kept snakes and other reptile species for many years before venturing into breeding snakes. Prior to breeding attempts I read EVERYTHING I could about doing it right, consulted with other hobbyists, and basically laid out a plan prior to adding to my collection with thoughts of breeding. I made sure I had compatible morphs to produce the desired morph I wanted, and understood the basics of genetics prior to mix and matching morphs for future projects (talking corns here). I did not jump onto a forum and expect instant answers to these questions. I view these forums as a "tweak" to what I dont undertand consulting more indepth sources, or for insight to issues I CANNOT find answers to in available sources. There just appears to be no building of platforms or solid bases regarding ANYTHING by some individuals prior to them reaching for the next level.

Well, why do the research and learn for yourself when you can just go buy what you want and when things go wrong, just post a question on a forum about your problem....

Gotta love the "I want it NOW" mentality....
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings (Spot and Fry)
1.0 Florida King (Gamble)
1.0 Ball Python (Mitch)
0.1 Red Belly Piranha (Fluffy)
1.0 Australian Shepherd (Spooky)
1.0 Springer Spaniel/Beagle mix (Snoopy)
0.1 Cat (Ecco)
0.1 Mountain Horse (Sandy)
0.1 Standardbred/Arabian Horse (Storm)
0.0.1 - foal on the way....

Nope, it's not just you. I've seen it with other reptiles - not just snakes. It's especially heartbreaking when you see the end results of poor husbandry and know that the problems could have been easily prevented. I think a big problem is that so many of these animals are available on the market - not necessarily from reputable breeders. I can't tell you how many pet stores I've seen with poor stock that don't offer any form of husbandry information aside from temperature and food requirements, and half of the time, both of these are way off.

I'm not a new snake owner by any means, but I will say that I am very grateful for all of the experienced keepers on this forum. There are some things that your typical care sheet or book doesn't quite cover.
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0.1 Banded California kingsnake - Zorro
1.0 Manx cat - Mako
0.1 RES - Chopstick
0.1 Crested gecko - Hiyori
1.1 crazy dogs - Tumnus, Jet

Dude,

You are so very right. To put it quite simply, there are far more people keeping snakes today than when I started out with them in the 1970s - the problem is that the newcomers keeping them are far less serious about it.

Most newcomers think the natural habitat of baby snakes is an 8 ounce deli cup. They have no idea where the snake's natural range is, what it eats in the wild, what other snakes it's most closely related to, etc. - nor do they care.

When I was a kid, I read everything I could about snakes (and I still do). Nowadays newcomers won't read a book - they get all their information from the internet and they're looking for the bare minimum of knowledge - preferable written "text message" style.

Tim

When I just read this post of yours, it seemed like I was looking at a post I made. I could not have said it any more accurately if I had to.

This is precisely what things are like now. I see WAY too many people that only seem to have an interest in "making" snakes, and not wanting to know diddly squat about the snake's themselves at all!.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Kevin,
I may have a less than popular opinion on this thread, but I wouldn't atttribute all the troubles in the hobby to newbs neglecting to do their research. It is a problem that should be addressed, but to be blunt, I would dare say that a few established breeders do FAR more harm to the hobby and to the snakes than all of the newbs combined. I'm in this hobby for one reason. I LOVE these animals. I've only owned or bred any animal for the desire to observe and learn from the experience. It has NEVER been about profit for me. How many breeders do you know that are passionate about a certain critter only for as long as the demand outweighs the supply. I've seen some "hobbiests" switch from snake A to snake B to snake C etc etc every time prices drop on the current project and the excitment has shifted to a new species. Some of these breeders then mass produce these animals creating more supply than demand can ever hope to handle and they flood the market with a thousand "cool snakes" in one year, while the teenager who simply wanted to experience the magic of producing snakes finds himslef now unable to unload the one meager clutch he was able to help create.

I've sold a handful of snakes in my day, but I have felt good about every home I have ever placed a snake in, and I have turned down more than one potential buyer for failing to prove that they could provide an adequate environment for my pets.

We all get tired of the novice questions, but you at least have to give these kids credit for asking them.

Jamison

You have some very valid points as well. but just like any issue things can sway both ways on blame. We as a group should just do our best to inform and help direct the younger generation so they wont make mistakes. but at the same time sometimes (not all) it feels like we are preaching to deaf ears. so its kinda a win/lose situation sometimes.

Jamison, I dont get tired of legitimate novice questions at all. It is confusing at times deciphering half information given in many of the available resource books, etc. As I stated in an earlier post, knowing you have to give your reptile a basking spot of 90 degrees is one thing, but knowing HOW to give your reptile that basking spot is another. Its a trial and error game many of us have played. The point being, if you are asking questions on basic husbandry and care issues, even basic identification, should you really be asking for information on breeding in basically the same breath?

I totally agree with you on many aspects you said. Im not a trident veteran but i have been around Reptiles (mainly Colubrids) since age 5 and of course the local water snakes and garters. Im only 27 years old but i remember the days of buying every snake and reptile book i could get my hands on to quench my knowledge for these lovely creatures. I would litterally read each book day after day until i pretty much had it memorized. In the last couple years i got back into breeding. started breeding when i was 16 nothing special just a pair of my normal corns to get my feet wet. then around 20 started getting into my other colubrids. Now i do only a few pairs a year. I have way more i could do but i dont see the point in flooding the market and i can only care for so many hatchlings a year. And im definately not a fan of hybrids. they remind me of the stray dogs and cats running around getting into my trash and putting paw prints on my freshly washed car and motorcycle!!!!
or in other words i call them mutts. cuz thats what they are. I only breed for the shear enjoyment of watching babies be born. Its great to know i hatched some babies. I tell ya i spend way more money than i make but thats why this is a hobby and alot of newbies need to know that. I guess my generation and younger are just a bunch of lazy asses(im not cuz i like to read and work) but if it wasnt for my pops puttin a whoopin on me senseless when my school work or farm chores wasnt done id prolly be like all the others wanting the quick answers. but i should stop now im just rambling and i could go on forever. but great post again!

Kevin, Before I read anyone else's response to your thread I'm gonna say I have to agree with you!Another thing that I see too is one week you have a newbie asking a bunch of questions(not a problem,that's how you learn)but,in the next week or two they're dishing out info! Just my $0.2 Take care! Jeff